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Tomatoes

New Player Tutorial

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Since the Josh Hayes video i have been thinking a lot about what he said about the tutorial(as im sure many of us have) and one of the things that came up in GL sent me here:

"Wurm is one of those games that starts as a survival game but later on as you get skills the sandbox really opens up" - this is very true to be honest, so true that its possible to use it to create some 'quest' lines of sorts for the tutorial area. I had three ideas that may fit:
 

  1. Currently developed and stable community looking to take on trusted and reliable help - prove your worth and get your skills up at the same time. 
  2. Thrust into the middle of nowhere(some random area 100 tiles from any deed) with nothing but your wits and your starter gear to help you survive, you must make your way back to the nearest starter town with 'x' items completed (x being some random number of tasks, could be set, with increasing difficulties)
  3. A series of random quests that seem like they have absolutely nothing to do with each other, until you get to the end of the line when you start using some of the things you made previously

 

i have other thoughts along these lines as well, however im not sure that they would fit quite so well. Now i grant that some people are very much capable of just doing their own thing, however the complexity of this game is such that Josh is very right, we need a better tutorial

EDIT 1 - Zuelatak additions:
 

Sigh, Ladies and gents, I get that the entire system has been worked over many times, i get that we dont want to force a particular path(like some of you seem to be doing to me tyvm) and i get we dont need it to cause more issues then it solves.

however, what we have currently is inadequate at best, and is driving away players at the worst.

most people dont/wont read a 2800 page wiki just to play a video game - they want to just dive in and do without thinking about it. Some options as to what sorts of paths one can take in game would be beneficial to new players. As for 'rewards' you get skills, one of the BIGGEST hurdles a new player has to think about - anything else would/should/could be considered secondary.
 

Quote

 

Zuelatak said:

Honestly, I think the tutorial just needs to cover the basics and a majority of the learning needs to come from tooltips out in the world. Learn how to activate items in the tutorial, but when you try to dig out in the world a tooltip should pop up and explain how you'll dig the nearest corner and that you can also flatten or level using xyz keybindings.

 

I think what we need to do is forget how the tutorial would look, but what it would cover. Work together to create comprehensive list with things such as:

-How to activate items

-How to use the wiki button

-What all the text channels are and how they are used (Trade, CA Help, etc.)

-That you can set a keybind by holding a key when mousing over the action in the right click menu

-That you can lock your camera to your mouse with x keybinding

 


Absolutely, 1000% agree: we definitely need this sort of stuff, however it should also be 'entertaining' as well. 

Think about all of game tutorials you have ever been through - i guarantee that the best ones you experienced were seamlessly integrated into whatever game it was, making it feel like it was a natural part of the game.

Here in wurm we have so many different play styles its unreal, Shipwright, Weaponsmith, Priest, Armoursmith, Architect, Builder, Thief, Archeologist, Rancher, Farmer....and that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to "classes" in game 

my point is: in order to keep players through the tutorial we may have to disguise the above task list with 'starter quests' that really dont reward you with much, other then the skill you use to do the quest. we could always toss in some yellow potions if people complain(jk jk)


also im going to add to that list as well 

 

-digging mechanics
-tunneling mechanics

-mast creation mechanics(from felled tree)

-fencing mechanics

 

EDIT 2: examples
 

23 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

How about an example of what i mean. New player enters the game. We will use the current area as a basis for now, and lets assume for a moment this game was 'recommended' for them by steam. they have played other sandboxes and sort of know what to expect. Instead of the current welcome to Wurm stuff that is there, they gets a rundown in the basics of the history of the game while learning about their inventory, how to activate things, how to use the crafting, recipe, and cooking windows. Before they choose a server they get an explanation on how each chat works that has a lore background. now all of this could be skip-able, or just be basic information - the 'tool tip'. a choice of Three different ways to play the game if you want.

 

Edited by Tomatoes
examples

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a better tutorial has been asked for a long time, and expecially with the steam release, its not something that was bought to the light with Josh vid but been well known a long time.

 

i totally agree with you that something has to be done, i think devs has underestimated how important a god tutorial for a game like this are.

 

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Something I have think of is maybe use a bit more of this static NPCs in starter towns (yes, yes Wurm don't need NPCs but in spacial for this they can be helpful) with short quest that require some items that are easy to get with a bit of time and don't really give high rewards that have basically no market value but maybe help you as a fresh player.

Something like this:

Coock: Ask for a new pan and some forageable/botanziable irradiance. They point you to the smith and explain how where you maybe can forage and botanize. As a reward you get some meat and the pan back with a new quest that ask for a meal and a pan and explain how to use the cooking system in Wurm (put stuff in the pan and use lore on the oven). He will give you a second meal with like 30QL and your meal back while keeping the pan.

Smith explain how to make items with an anvil, for example a Pan (for some weird reason a lot of people ask for this, so this is now his standard example :P) and have a quest how his iron stock is running low and need 5 lumbs with at least 1kg wight. He will point to a explorer/survivalist to help you with this. He rewards you with a hammer a pelt and a Whetstone all QL10 so you can improve your own smiting items.

Survivalist will explain how to make crude tools and how to use prospecting to find your iron out in the wild. Also have a short script that look for the next iron vine that is not on a deed and point you in this direction.

 

Maybe a Fisher and a Carpenter and a Vyn priest that ask for saccing material and will cast CoC as a reward, with fix 10 or 15 Power on an item you choose.

 

Its not a lot but alone with like this 5 or 6 NPCs you can create a relatively nice narrative tutorial without doing to much handholding. The rewards are REALLY bad in terms of time investment, but this is somthing you only know when you have more game experience and skill. It helps the loners to get going and figure stuff out until he feel a bit more confortable with the game.

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The tutorial might be the most worked on part of Wurm now, this would be nr4 or 5? :P

But yeah, it's better than it ever has been but it's still not there just yet.

Add NPC's and a short story to push people into the right direction might be the way to go.

Edited by Timoca

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Considering there's a "fighting arena" in the tutorial and then a sign with something like "arena master on vacation" kinda  emphasises how pointless that part of the tutorial is. 

 

Combat in wurm, when will we get a decent intro tutorial for combat?

 

Yeah the starting tutorial is poorly made. It doesn't communicate "the journey of Wurm" for new players. It shows you how to cut wood, mine some ore, climb and dig. That's it. 2022 and that's all the tutorial a game more than a decade old gets. And yeah when I saw Joshua Haye's comment that "Barely 10% of players complete the tutorial and you lose 90% of players in the first hour" my jaw kinda dropped. I made an alt last night to see how the tutorial experience is. 

 

An empty place. No players. No one to guide you. Nothing. Notice how a lot of Josh's reviews tend to revolve around empty starting tutorials = empty dead games. 

 

Have some dedicated players be given a "Mentor" status in game, rotate them by timezones or something, rework the tutorial area to cover the most important questions in Wurm : such as "What do I do from here? " . Keynote : IF new people get the answer : it's a sandbox game you do what you want then 90 % of them will say "I quit then". Which according to current steam stats, they do. 

 

Any game needs a direction and focus. Hell even a lot of sandbox there have a starting direction to point the player to something. Wurm just throws you into this wide world that often seems empty and dead and we wonder why we have no players.

 

Do you want to know why the 2013 tutorial area worked vs this one? There are several reasons. 

 

1. The 2013 tutorial area had players always signing in so it didn't feel empty. Sometimes it had a gm greeting new people. 

2. It actually covered way more info than this one. It had a ledge you fell off so you took damage and it told you how to do first aid. You could even forage or receive cotton to bandage said wound. 

3. It had uneven slopes and it taught you how to plan and not plan a house. 

4. It had something dynamic and lively in it, every step felt like a journey learning something. 

 

The current tutorial simply seems lifeless and not fun. It's not engaging. It's telling you some info via signs and some pop up boxes and that's about it. If you want to keep the starting tutorial as is, which I don't recommend then hire mentors so new people can actually see there are living players in it. Otherwise find a more dynamic, fun and engaging way to start new players on their Wurm journey. Saying it's a sandbox game is no excuse to put people in directionless gameplay. Just my 2 coppers here. 

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Honestly, I feel Wurm is complex enough that a well thought out, concise video tutorial that plays in game for a new toon showing various scenarios and how menus work would suffice. 
 

The challenge of the game itself is enough. Why make it more frustrating for a new player to start with *more* challenges?  Doesn’t sound fun. 
 

Yes, the current tutorial lacks, but I think too much challenge will turn away new players just as much. 
 

I like the NPC idea that Radrics has though. 
 

Sure, someone can search YouTube if they want to learn more, but having a short video in game seems ideal. 

Edited by belacane
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5 hours ago, Tomatoes said:

 

  1. Currently developed and stable community looking to take on trusted and reliable help - prove your worth and get your skills up at the same time. 
  2. Thrust into the middle of nowhere(some random area 100 tiles from any deed) with nothing but your wits and your starter gear to help you survive, you must make your way back to the nearest starter town with 'x' items completed (x being some random number of tasks, could be set, with increasing difficulties)
  3. A series of random quests that seem like they have absolutely nothing to do with each other, until you get to the end of the line when you start using some of the things you made previously

 

Few things I have an issue with regarding these suggestions, mainly 1 and 2.

 

1. There would have to be a very large amount of permanently active communities and deeds available at all times for players to join. This is highly unlikely and even just 5-10 new players joining would probably cap out any deeds that put their hands up very quickly - the staff would have to make and monitor a deed of some sort for this to happen and that isn't really in line with how Wurm operates or its cash flow methods. Another thing to note here is that due to how Wurm works, the new player would have to get used to being told 'No' a lot in a sandbox game, which is not normally what happens when you are let loose to find a spot and well, do 'Yes' things. 

 

2. 100 tiles from any deed with a task list, especially for a new player, sounds like complete hell for any established players as well as overwhelming for a brand new player. Dropping a brand new player right into the area around deeds and instructing them to cut trees, mine, dig, plant fields etc would be painful for both the new player and existing players. The new player will not have public amenities available right nearby like the current set ups are, nor will they have a grip on their location on the map, any guard towers or the ability to actually explore for threats before leaving the safety of a town. In regards to older players, if they decide to leave the game and not realize they've just butchered someones area - especially if they are spawned within something like a community orchard etc - a lot of these amenities are respected by the established player base and this would easily wipe our certain amenities. The new player might find themselves interfering with community works, somewhere inhospitable or other generic things that are left undeeded for the ease of public access.  Imagine a new player is spawned right on the tundra or steppe of a server and just gets to digging right away because his screen tells him too? Or their first quest is to make a bunch of wooden things and they've just spawned into the local cedar sprout orchard. 

 

3. I actually don't have that many issues with this, besides the fact that it basically exists through the journal and following the journal as a new player will end up having a similar or same result.

 

 

It appears from what some staff has said in GL that staff are already looking at the tutorial again and his video has spread. Suggestion 3 isn't bad but already exists in the form of the journal. Suggestions 1 and 2 sound too troublesome for players involved, both old and new, especially for a new player. 

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1 hour ago, belacane said:

I like the NPC idea that Radrics has though. 

Aye, would be nice. Throw in some wurm memes here and there and make it even better :)

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Would love if the devs held a contest for us to submit our tutorials and the winner could come out with some silver. Could even charge silver for entry to create some money sink.

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On 4/29/2022 at 8:26 AM, Blazecraze said:

 

Few things I have an issue with regarding these suggestions, mainly 1 and 2.

 

1. There would have to be a very large amount of permanently active communities and deeds available at all times for players to join. This is highly unlikely and even just 5-10 new players joining would probably cap out any deeds that put their hands up very quickly - the staff would have to make and monitor a deed of some sort for this to happen and that isn't really in line with how Wurm operates or its cash flow methods. Another thing to note here is that due to how Wurm works, the new player would have to get used to being told 'No' a lot in a sandbox game, which is not normally what happens when you are let loose to find a spot and well, do 'Yes' things. 

 

2. 100 tiles from any deed with a task list, especially for a new player, sounds like complete hell for any established players as well as overwhelming for a brand new player. Dropping a brand new player right into the area around deeds and instructing them to cut trees, mine, dig, plant fields etc would be painful for both the new player and existing players. The new player will not have public amenities available right nearby like the current set ups are, nor will they have a grip on their location on the map, any guard towers or the ability to actually explore for threats before leaving the safety of a town. In regards to older players, if they decide to leave the game and not realize they've just butchered someones area - especially if they are spawned within something like a community orchard etc - a lot of these amenities are respected by the established player base and this would easily wipe our certain amenities. The new player might find themselves interfering with community works, somewhere inhospitable or other generic things that are left undeeded for the ease of public access.  Imagine a new player is spawned right on the tundra or steppe of a server and just gets to digging right away because his screen tells him too? Or their first quest is to make a bunch of wooden things and they've just spawned into the local cedar sprout orchard. 

 

3. I actually don't have that many issues with this, besides the fact that it basically exists through the journal and following the journal as a new player will end up having a similar or same result.

 

 

It appears from what some staff has said in GL that staff are already looking at the tutorial again and his video has spread. Suggestion 3 isn't bad but already exists in the form of the journal. Suggestions 1 and 2 sound too troublesome for players involved, both old and new, especially for a new player. 

My apologies, but was there anything constructive you would do different? I mean i totally get that criticizing someone's work is how 'most' people(not me) learn an understand new things, however when its mostly negative the only message you send is that the other person's idea's are crap and not worth the effort. 

But then you made this comment, which was possibly intended to get me to react(kudos if so). Now when i posted this originally i knew it wasnt a 'fleshed out' idea, which is why i brought it here, so that maybe someone else would see it and maybe make something useful out of it. Who knows, maybe someone would have had a way to adjust things so it works, even if its only a minor change.

My point, is that constructive criticism trumps destructive criticism. Would LOVE to hear what ideas you have Blaze.

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On 4/30/2022 at 2:35 PM, Zuelatak said:

Would love if the devs held a contest for us to submit our tutorials and the winner could come out with some silver. Could even charge silver for entry to create some money sink.

I'd 100% build the thing for free if they supplied the materials and tools

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2 hours ago, Tomatoes said:

My apologies, but was there anything constructive you would do different? I mean i totally get that criticizing someone's work is how 'most' people(not me) learn an understand new things, however when its mostly negative the only message you send is that the other person's idea's are crap and not worth the effort. 

But then you made this comment, which was possibly intended to get me to react(kudos if so). Now when i posted this originally i knew it wasnt a 'fleshed out' idea, which is why i brought it here, so that maybe someone else would see it and maybe make something useful out of it. Who knows, maybe someone would have had a way to adjust things so it works, even if its only a minor change.

My point, is that constructive criticism trumps destructive criticism. Would LOVE to hear what ideas you have Blaze.

 

It's already constructive, don't try and paint Blaze's take (which I agree with) as something just intended to say "thing bad"
You got feedback, build on top of that. You can't expect others to build your idea for you, given it's your idea and not anyone elses.

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I've always noticed how the Wurm community is happy to help with development and other things, so why aren't there more volunteer positions open to get things moving. With a relatively small staff, there are SO MANY things that need work and are supposedly being worked on, but progress is ultimately a very slow thing.

 

Or why not do some things like this:

On 4/30/2022 at 1:35 PM, Zuelatak said:

Would love if the devs held a contest for us to submit our tutorials and the winner could come out with some silver. Could even charge silver for entry to create some money sink.

 

Not to derail the OP, but it seems there are many wanting to help, so why not let them?

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Only -1 to this is .... wurm's not typical mmorpg.. it's sandbox... this 'tutorial' should be in no way intrusive and in no way forced.. and in such case.. as optional -> you're likely to dismiss and skip it; sure useful to re-enable and try it later, BUT... who ever does such a thing if there's no reward for it?

 

Karma is trash unless you have legendary god tier drops which are epic rare/overpriced and milked by few, exploiting certain mechanics with flaws(not talking about hacks.. it's just dumb the way it happens and pretty easy to fight off strongly opinionated people thinking otherwise by looking at niarja table.. and twitter feeds for unique deaths.. same names.. what could possibly be wrong with it, right.. "nothing, it's all fine" we just see tens of threads every year asking for a change that never comes)

 

So what.. create tutorial and earn just sleep bonus? Possibly lootbox mechanic for items with enchants? That kind of kills some way to play and interact with the game, players and the existing world to .. skip it all and print new "gm-spawned" items, sounds meh in wurm-world where it was supposed to be all player-made, sculpted and built.

 

 

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Gosh, if only we had a tutorial that could be done anywhere in the game, and a starting area that had actual players living around it. 

 

Yes I'm salty about havens landing

Edited by Archaed
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Honestly, I think the tutorial just needs to cover the basics and a majority of the learning needs to come from tooltips out in the world. Learn how to activate items in the tutorial, but when you try to dig out in the world a tooltip should pop up and explain how you'll dig the nearest corner and that you can also flatten or level using xyz keybindings.

 

I think what we need to do is forget how the tutorial would look, but what it would cover. Work together to create comprehensive list with things such as:

-How to activate items

-How to use the wiki button

-What all the text channels are and how they are used (Trade, CA Help, etc.)

-That you can set a keybind by holding a key when mousing over the action in the right click menu

-That you can lock your camera to your mouse with x keybinding

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I recall just golden valley.. few signs.. few decorations all around and a teleport, if you figure spawning on chaos is dumb.. you just won the game - the end

Next thing was to verse the ultimate boss when you find a pheasant and decide that's your deli dinner... well.. you're in for a treat ... if you use a tool as weapon or forget to equip a shield/armor..

 

There's not that much to show to new players... biggest problem is to find new players enjoying the content and graphics, progression speed, etc...

We see threads like this where tutorial is the worst enemy.. but we see no players actually fighting it?

 

Maybe players just skip the tutorial as it gives nothing back.

All the small tasks, etc - give nothing.. time's relative but best not wasted on boring lectures.

 

More interactive.. per mechanic guides and tips could be more useful, then that could be reused either later on when the new players aren't that new to remember mechanics or learn them as they go, at the tutorial zone or in the open world/s

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 Sigh, Ladies and gents, I get that the entire system has been worked over many times, i get that we dont want to force a particular path(like some of you seem to be doing to me tyvm) and i get we dont need it to cause more issues then it solves.

however, what we have currently is inadequate at best, and is driving away players at the worst.

most people dont/wont read a 2800 page wiki just to play a video game - they want to just dive in and do without thinking about it. Some options as to what sorts of paths one can take in game would be beneficial to new players. As for 'rewards' you get skills, one of the BIGGEST hurdles a new player has to think about - anything else would/should/could be considered secondary.
 

57 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Honestly, I think the tutorial just needs to cover the basics and a majority of the learning needs to come from tooltips out in the world. Learn how to activate items in the tutorial, but when you try to dig out in the world a tooltip should pop up and explain how you'll dig the nearest corner and that you can also flatten or level using xyz keybindings.

 

I think what we need to do is forget how the tutorial would look, but what it would cover. Work together to create comprehensive list with things such as:

-How to activate items

-How to use the wiki button

-What all the text channels are and how they are used (Trade, CA Help, etc.)

-That you can set a keybind by holding a key when mousing over the action in the right click menu

-That you can lock your camera to your mouse with x keybinding


Absolutely, 1000% agree: we definitely need this sort of stuff, however it should also be 'entertaining' as well. 

Think about all of game tutorials you have ever been through - i guarantee that the best ones you experienced were seamlessly integrated into whatever game it was, making it feel like it was a natural part of the game.

Here in wurm we have so many different play styles its unreal, Shipwright, Weaponsmith, Priest, Armoursmith, Architect, Builder, Thief, Archeologist, Rancher, Farmer....and that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to "classes" in game 

my point is: in order to keep players through the tutorial we may have to disguise the above task list with 'starter quests' that really dont reward you with much, other then the skill you use to do the quest. we could always toss in some yellow potions if people complain(jk jk)


also im going to add to that list as well 

 

-digging mechanics
-tunneling mechanics

-mast creation mechanics(from felled tree)

-fencing mechanics

 

Edited by Tomatoes

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9 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

Think about all of game tutorials you have ever been through - i guarantee that the best ones you experienced were seamlessly integrated into whatever game it was, making it feel like it was a natural part of the game.

Those would be the tooltips I think.

9 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

-digging mechanics
-tunneling mechanics

-mast creation mechanics(from felled tree)

-fencing mechanics

Hmmm I think digging could def be left out of the tutorial and be done with tooltips. The rest I feel should be out of the tutorial and done using tooltips, but I'm struggling to picture the conditions that would trigger them. Also, I recommend having an edit to your OP with this idea if you like it so that we have a clear and concise list. 

Edited by Zuelatak
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1 hour ago, Zuelatak said:

Those would be the tooltips I think.

Hmmm I think digging could def be left out of the tutorial and be done with tooltips. The rest I feel should be out of the tutorial and done using tooltips, but I'm struggling to picture the conditions that would trigger them. Also, I recommend having an edit to your OP with this idea if you like it so that we have a clear and concise list. 

I have an example that i can explain, however its way to complex to implement:
 

Player wants to make a house(lets assume this is the first thing any new player thinks about), they open the crafting window, then the recipes window, and type in 'house' - this is were the 'tooltip' would kick in, however to make a house one has to have at min 5 carp, 80 planks, 4 large nails, - tool tip could explain this, however that is where things get dicey - cause now you need iron for the nails, which means finding a mine, or making one, in order to mine the iron ore that you smelt into lump. 

Now i can see how turning some basic tasks, like digging or normal mining, into tooltips would be very useful.

However, with the house example, that is where a quest system could shine - and it could even be optional. Something that does nothing other then point you in the direction you need to go.

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11 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

However, with the house example, that is where a quest system could shine - and it could even be optional. Something that does nothing other then point you in the direction you need to go.

Well this would just be an expansion on the journal system. Creating more tasks and possibly categories. Like a woodcutting journal that takes you on the journey of woodcutting and at the end rewards you with 5% increased chance of rare rolls when related to woodcutting or something. Something that I believe Sindusk brought up in his roadmap idea post. Every activity having it's own journal cluster to explore rather than having to do 130 activities and then be rewarded with something that applies to all 130.

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1 hour ago, Tomatoes said:

However, with the house example, that is where a quest system could shine - and it could even be optional. Something that does nothing other then point you in the direction you need to go.** and lead them by the nose to the goal

after i read your comment i realized what i missed. that last bit. unfortunately there are people that need that, and staff has to deal with it all the time. This may come as a bit of a shock to some, but that is when people who get stuck in game start trolling GL, Wurm is NOT easy, especially if you are one who would prefer to leave staff alone and let them do the stuff they are supposed to do, what ever that may be. I get that "CA Help is  <--That way", but not everyone is comfortable asking a bunch of completely desperate, insular communities for help....no matter how pleasant some of us can be.

Edited by Tomatoes

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12 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

I get that "CA Help is  <--That way", but not everyone is comfortable asking a bunch of completely desperate insular communities for help....no matter how pleasant some of us can be.

Can you explain what you think makes it uncomfortable? Is it looking dumb?

16 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

after i read your comment i realized what i missed. that last bit. unfortunately there are people that need that, and staff has to deal with it all the time. This may come as a bit of a shock to some, but that is when people who get stuck in game start trolling GL, Wurm is NOT easy, especially if you are one who would prefer to leave staff alone and let them do the stuff they are supposed to do, what ever that may be.

Wait what comment is this all in reference to? I don't understand what you're saying player's need.

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10 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Can you explain what you think makes it uncomfortable? Is it looking dumb?

Among other things, yes that would be a big thing - however being shamed is another one. From what i have gathered over the years most people do not like feeling either condition.

 

10 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Wait what comment is this all in reference to? I don't understand what you're saying player's need.

this commment:

1 hour ago, Zuelatak said:

Well this would just be an expansion on the journal system. Creating more tasks and possibly categories. Like a woodcutting journal that takes you on the journey of woodcutting and at the end rewards you with 5% increased chance of rare rolls when related to woodcutting or something. Something that I believe Sindusk brought up in his roadmap idea post. Every activity having it's own journal cluster to explore rather than having to do 130 activities and then be rewarded with something that applies to all 130.

 

and what i am saying is that when a new person joins a game as 'open ended' as this one, a person's imagination can take off in unpredictable ways. the most stable people will just cope and survive, in some way, however sometimes a person will get stuck on things(something i know a thing or two about). the only way to get someone unstuck sometimes is to lead them by the nose to the solution.

 

Edited by Tomatoes
clarification

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It's almost as if this game is incredibly deep and complex and a single tutorial won't be able to cover it all without being instantly skipped. 

 

If you try to teach someone everything, they will not read a thing. The basics of interacting, crafting, and exploring are the key. 

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