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Remove Champions from Chaos

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+1 if we wait roughly 2 months before doing so

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On 4/20/2022 at 3:19 PM, Grotesque said:

+1 and cap all characteristics at 50.  Enough of the ######, let's help new players actually enjoy Chaos.

Don’t think that’s a good idea, but removing champs is a good first step.

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+1 to removing Champs, and Artis,war bonus,  give Chaos more reasons to leave deed and engage in combat. Takes forever to regear have a death drop of items changed to maybe like you lose 50 % of items in inventory.

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Posted (edited)

I'm gonna slap this with a -1. God tier accs that champ and become even stronger are definitely a problem, but generally they are a problem even prior to champing. It is usually the stacking of tomes, med path abilities, and certain artis, on top of champhood, that make an acc essentially unkillable. Remove champhood and these accs are still miles ahead of newer accs, so its not like a change like this would make a world of difference. In fact, champhood actually allows newer players a chance to level the playing field by bringing their acc more in line with those who have played the game for years already. Rather than outright removing the feature, I think a balance to how the bonuses stack on stronger accs would be a much more sound solution to the issue at hand. 

Edited by CIRAY

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+1

or bring back perma death

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On 4/23/2022 at 4:27 AM, CIRAY said:

I'm gonna slap this with a -1. God tier accs that champ and become even stronger are definitely a problem, but generally they are a problem even prior to champing. It is usually the stacking of tomes, med path abilities, and certain artis, on top of champhood, that make an acc essentially unkillable. Remove champhood and these accs are still miles ahead of newer accs, so its not like a change like this would make a world of difference. In fact, champhood actually allows newer players a chance to level the playing field by bringing their acc more in line with those who have played the game for years already. Rather than outright removing the feature, I think a balance to how the bonuses stack on stronger accs would be a much more sound solution to the issue at hand. 

 

Problem is that as long as champs exist people tend to only leave deed if they are one and the others tend to avoid them going like: X is a champ no chance of beating them so i might aswell play something else.

 

In reality facts dont really matter is the perception people have. If they think they have a clear disatvantage, then they will try to avoid getting into that situation all together.

 

So we end up with former staff members being quoted on how most of pvp is finding ways to avoid pvp.

 

So if we want pvp to happen it has to become something fun, something that people that enjoy playing versus other player(s) would want to atleast try out.

 

I would say make a survey on what they should add/remove to make pvp fun but that's not realistic because 90% of wurmians wont even bother completing it since they swore off pvp in this game or in general.

 

Now to make pvp fun is to try to get as balanced in power accounts as possible while having some type of downside to it still to keep the nerves going and make you feel like you have something to lose. But too much of that and you get people avoiding it. So where is the balance?

 

Maybe make like a pvp skill or stat where your normal characteristics count untill like 45 or 50 (because they want people to grind still for months to pay for prem) or 30 or whatever and the rest of the power would be a pvp stat that would be lost and gained +2/3 levels based on doing something but most of the time would be the same for all toons?

 

So would end up with normal characteristics to matter for 100% of pve fights and then for pvp 50% would be the characteristics capped at 50 then after that the pvp only stat that is same for all toons and could go up or down 1-2 levels based on something you do in game.

 

Also make a meditation path wide thing for pvp no drop no skill loss with 16h cd. So if you havent died in the last 16 irl hours you ahve no drop and no skill loss at level 4-5 ish on all meditation paths.

 

That could be a thing too: have meditation paths give something for pve and something else for pvp . There i just fixed Defiance too:)

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Was first like ofcourse!! this would be great balance!!! Then started to think it about some more. Makes sense for players that have been playing the game for along time and have stronger accounts. What about the new people that wanna join and make a new kingdom with 30 body accounts? All the current buffs you can get is allready way more that they can hadle. A single person can wipe a whole team of low end accounts. 

 

The thing is.. that current pvp system will never be balanced  how its been build ...periode. Taking out stuff adding stuff just seems to use developers time and nothing never changes. Am gonna just but the reason why all the newplayers i have met in long history leave pvp and why changing current system wont add player. Just keeping the 40ish players that play the pvp maps happy should not be a way to develope a game:

 

Sailing to chaos. They are exited to join pvp and set sail to chaos. They find a land area  to start making a base. Old players level their base in 1 day that they been builiding a week and steal their ships. Now they are trapped in chaos and have no ship making. They try to grind ship making but they get killed all the time and lose their tools every single time. Finally they deside to just leave the game or jump to epic that has no players and leave soon after.

 

Lets say they are hardcore and can take all of that. Then there is a issue of regearing everytime they die. They will they lose gear a lot in the beginning and body stats with the fighting skills that they need to win a battle sometime in the future. Just to kick the newbie even more lets take the 1 only affinity  that he has. Or multible that he got with cash from the shop from him just to ensure that he cant get even that skill faster. 

 

Lets say they can stand even that. After 3-6 months they start to face the facts they need to grind in freedom for a decade before joining pvp and have finally made that ship to sail back to freedom to tell about the fun time to others in the freedom chat.

 

So adding things and taking things out dosent really matter at this point for the long run. Only way to make pvp work is going back to planning mode and start to make a system that works and is fun to play....FUN TO PLAY for everyone. We have a portar system we can implement a pvp area with this. Will take sometime effort and time but so will the changes that you do currently.

 

So wont say a +1 or a -1. Will say convert all current maps to pve and move pvp to a new location with a whole new system that can be balanced easyer for all level players and again is FUN to play for all. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, sleepys said:

...move pvp to a new location with a whole new system that can be balanced easyer for all level players and again is FUN to play for all. 

 

 

 

We had something like that before. It was called the Epic cluster and for -some reason- it died.

Edited by Merc
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2 hours ago, Merc said:

 

We had something like that before. It was called the Epic cluster and for -some reason- it died.

 

Well when i was thinkin starting with a whole new system was thinking more like going to the GDD document and deleting everything there is in the section of pvp. Not copying a current system and tweak settings.

 

After that start asking questions what makes pvp bad currently and what pvp really needs? Does it really need everything Wurm has to offer? Can it be something different that freedom clusters are? Can we simplify the system?

Like really start looking it in pvp side only. I think currently there is too many things that you need for pvp. This isent stopping anytime soon too. We are getting new contend every year. But i know we all need to cook the FS meal before battle becouse never know if you will get a skill.

 

 

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Maybe our expectations from the devs are unrealistic:

 

We want them to make pvp fun so plenty of people come for it but then again not change anything existing. That's an impossible request.

 

Because then it would mean they have the combat be so fun that it attracts people in.

 

In reality now you just need to target someone. Special moves can't be used alot since the massive stamina cost is prohibitive and the devs are likely to nerf stam some more because of path of power being the go to atm.

 

I suppose you focus spam then try 1-2 shield bashes and thats the combat. At this point they should just replace everything with like a pokemon based window.

 

You run into someone you attack them and a window pops up where you have 1-2 abilities and a dice roll.

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-1 Just remove the DR from current champs and the reduction in skills when dechamping!

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Posted (edited)

Or just remove full loot pvp. Really that's the elephant in the room and it's always been the main reason people avoid it. Just ask people about why they avoid it and most of them will point that out. 

 

Been talking to a lot of people from freedom for the  past two years about why they don't pvp and the majority of them invoke these reasons (not all of them at once) 

 

1. I don't know how to pvp and wouldn't know where to start. 

2. I worked for my stuff or bought it with RL earned money and don't want to lose it. 

3. What do I even win in pvp that I can't get on freedom? The risk is too high vs the time investment. 

 

#1 could probably be solved by having a dedicated pvp tutorial, probably the best chance we'd have is having a player made one or some videos on youtube in that direction. 

 

#2 and #3 refer to items, skill & affinities. People simply don't want to lose their work and it's an unreasonable and unrealistic chance to expect the vast majority of wurmians to ever change that attitude. Wurm is a game about item/skill longevity and permanence. Full loot pvp is the total opposite of that concept. Wurm has simply 2 conflicting design stances that simply cannot synergize. People get lucky and get affinities and earn some good skills or outright buy them from the marks shop with RL money. They won't risk a RL money investment for something they don't understand due to #1. 

 

Been watching a lot of design theory videos on video games for the past few months and the general conclusion is : hardcore pvp sandbox games are a NICHE within the MMO genre and full loot PVP are a niche within that niche of games. There's a reason Chaos / Epic/ Defiance have the low population they have compared to the majority of wurmians. This will never absolutely change. 

 

Want more players to play pvp? Remove the barriers of conflicting game design choices for pvp to actually happen. Use systems like :

 

1. When dying items suffer a 10% ql loss (not damage but ql). 

2. Instead of forcing skill / affinity loss , give players killed in pvp a resurrection debuff. You get a CR / combat penalty for a short time but at the bonus of getting shortened imping timers in order to repair your gear. 

3. Instead of incentivizing players by killing players for loot, give players PVP points they can earn to spend for a variety of short term buffs (they can even be in the form of potions) : eg. temporary affinity potion, last 1 hr, stacks with food affinities (give pve people a reason to PVP), archery potion (first 5 arrows have higher chance to connect to a target), and hear me out here on this crazy idea.....actually being able to buy dragon scales / hide with PvP points. This would actually give many people from freedom a reason to come to chaos in the hopes of earning a set of dragon armour. 

 

These are just design suggestions but let's face it folks....NO amount of tweaks to pvp, champs, spells, gear, weapons, meditation, karma spells, will ever fix the elephant in the room , which is the conflicting design concepts between a game promoting longevity of items  / skills vs pvp which is the loss of items and skills. 

 

I know this will fall on deaf ears but think about this image...

 

200 people coming to chaos knowing they don't have to fear losing their hard work, bashing each other with axes, mauls, swords and whatever branch they find and actually having non-toxic fun. When was pvp last non toxic and fun? 

 

Game devs....at least try this idea, for a year...see what happens. At this low population for pvp, really what's there to lose at his point? 

Edited by elentari
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much as id like to see champs gone from chaos, im going to have to change my vote. both elentari and sleepys make sense

 

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13 hours ago, elentari said:

...

 

Game devs....at least try this idea, for a year...see what happens. At this low population for pvp, really what's there to lose at his point? 

 

Reboot the epic cluster with this concept in mind and go from there.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Merc said:

Reboot the epic cluster with this concept in mind and go from there.

I'd be completely fine with that as long as the main Epic issue is also addressed : 2 way skill transfer. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 parity, simply figure out a formula to transfer skillgain earned on Epic to Freedom. This is the #1 reason no one goes to Epic.  What's earned on Freedom copise to Epic. 

 

Also wanna point out Amazon's New World initially tried out full loot pvp in its closed  alpha phase and they saw how most people just engaged in a mindless chaotic bash fest while naked since they knew no armor or gear they'd have will actually be preserved. They also came to the conclusion the majority of the playerbase were casual and semi-casual which meant there was no demographic to actually cater to a full loot pvp development investment. In addition it led to the creation of high level groups that simply targeted solo players or weaker groups repeatedly just to kill them (even if their loot was pointless), aka toxic griefing. 

 

We already have at least 15 years of data (active player count) to look at full loot mmos to know that they simply will never be anything more than a niche within a niche. Even the Wurm devs at a certain level know this, by simply looking at the development timeline for the past 8 years. Most dev focus was on the PvE demographic of Wurm. Few updates were actually aimed at the pvp crowd. If you want Wurm pvp to actually be a thing then you need to synergize the design of longevity aimed mechanics with pvp. 

 

It was a nice gaming experiment, full loot pvp, but the data shows that there's simply no demographic for it. It won't work outside of fragfest fast paced games, which Wurm is not. 

Edited by elentari
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On 4/29/2022 at 12:37 AM, elentari said:

Or just remove full loot pvp. Really that's the elephant in the room and it's always been the main reason people avoid it. Just ask people about why they avoid it and most of them will point that out. 

 

Been talking to a lot of people from freedom for the  past two years about why they don't pvp and the majority of them invoke these reasons (not all of them at once) 

 

1. I don't know how to pvp and wouldn't know where to start. 

2. I worked for my stuff or bought it with RL earned money and don't want to lose it. 

3. What do I even win in pvp that I can't get on freedom? The risk is too high vs the time investment. 

 

#1 could probably be solved by having a dedicated pvp tutorial, probably the best chance we'd have is having a player made one or some videos on youtube in that direction. 

 

#2 and #3 refer to items, skill & affinities. People simply don't want to lose their work and it's an unreasonable and unrealistic chance to expect the vast majority of wurmians to ever change that attitude. Wurm is a game about item/skill longevity and permanence. Full loot pvp is the total opposite of that concept. Wurm has simply 2 conflicting design stances that simply cannot synergize. People get lucky and get affinities and earn some good skills or outright buy them from the marks shop with RL money. They won't risk a RL money investment for something they don't understand due to #1. 

 

Been watching a lot of design theory videos on video games for the past few months and the general conclusion is : hardcore pvp sandbox games are a NICHE within the MMO genre and full loot PVP are a niche within that niche of games. There's a reason Chaos / Epic/ Defiance have the low population they have compared to the majority of wurmians. This will never absolutely change. 

 

Want more players to play pvp? Remove the barriers of conflicting game design choices for pvp to actually happen. Use systems like :

 

1. When dying items suffer a 10% ql loss (not damage but ql). 

2. Instead of forcing skill / affinity loss , give players killed in pvp a resurrection debuff. You get a CR / combat penalty for a short time but at the bonus of getting shortened imping timers in order to repair your gear. 

3. Instead of incentivizing players by killing players for loot, give players PVP points they can earn to spend for a variety of short term buffs (they can even be in the form of potions) : eg. temporary affinity potion, last 1 hr, stacks with food affinities (give pve people a reason to PVP), archery potion (first 5 arrows have higher chance to connect to a target), and hear me out here on this crazy idea.....actually being able to buy dragon scales / hide with PvP points. This would actually give many people from freedom a reason to come to chaos in the hopes of earning a set of dragon armour. 

 

These are just design suggestions but let's face it folks....NO amount of tweaks to pvp, champs, spells, gear, weapons, meditation, karma spells, will ever fix the elephant in the room , which is the conflicting design concepts between a game promoting longevity of items  / skills vs pvp which is the loss of items and skills. 

 

I know this will fall on deaf ears but think about this image...

 

200 people coming to chaos knowing they don't have to fear losing their hard work, bashing each other with axes, mauls, swords and whatever branch they find and actually having non-toxic fun. When was pvp last non toxic and fun? 

 

Game devs....at least try this idea, for a year...see what happens. At this low population for pvp, really what's there to lose at his point? 

 

I like full loot pvp, it's one of the pillars of wurm.

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fellow new player. offering my perspective.

 

starting the game right away im aware pvp will not be viable for me. people dont like recruiting strangers, im weak, i have nothing, i wouldnt even be able to continue playing once my deed was located and erased. legit maybe in a year or two ill sail for chaos with the friends ive made along the way. as of now it is simply not viable.

 

also i dont think wurm has the population to discuss pvp changes right now. from a brief look at the population chaos is composed of a handful of wolves that survived cannibalizing each other once all the sheep ran out.

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2 hours ago, garforl said:

also i dont think wurm has the population to discuss pvp changes right now. from a brief look at the population chaos is composed of a handful of wolves that survived cannibalizing each other once all the sheep ran out.

 

I think the discussion has more nuance than you realise, and this input is really not at all constructive.

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On 6/20/2022 at 5:04 PM, garforl said:

 

starting the game right away im aware pvp will not be viable for me. people dont like recruiting strangers, im weak, i have nothing, i wouldnt even be able to continue playing once my deed was located and erased. legit maybe in a year or two ill sail for chaos with the friends ive made along the way. as of now it is simply not viable.

Kind of outdated most kingdoms(atleast KJ) doesn't even really ask skills when recruiting and will gear you completely nothing(I'm pretty sure this parts accurate for all kingdoms tbh) we just want people to pvp. However, not sure what this whole thing has to do with champs perhaps I misunderstood something.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, user said:

we just want people to pvp. However, not sure what this whole thing has to do with champs perhaps I misunderstood something.

 

The ideea is that championhood makes high end accounts like Snoo Silakka Rocklobstar to become too strong and thus making the rest of the server pop not want to go out and look for action anymore because they think if they run into one of them is not much they can do even tho they have solid accounts aswell.

 

Case in point your boys:

 

 

Silakka sits there and tanks all your champs and kills them too.

 

Sleepys argued that champs should be kept so that 30body toons can champ up and be competitive vs the old players.

 

None of the KJ champs in this vid are 30 body toons not even close and they still get dunked. 

 

So i would argue that champing up wont save the low stats toons but will scale very dangerously high for a chunky toon like the ones i mentioned before.

 

 

On 6/21/2022 at 12:04 AM, garforl said:

starting the game right away im aware pvp will not be viable for me. people dont like recruiting strangers, im weak, i have nothing, i wouldnt even be able to continue playing once my deed was located and erased.

 

All online games have this "problem". They cannot offer new toons being as strong as old ones because then why would ppl want to play if they dont feel like they are getting  stronger.

 

You need to decide what it is that you will enjoy about the pvp side of wurm and if it is combat and bonking heads then just have to accept dying as "the price of doing business" and just try and apply to a kingdom.

 

On Chaos you could try Jen Kellon, Sparta or Pandemonium.

 

Yes you might be suspected of being a spy since not many new accounts venture into pvp but you will get in just fine if you can take and dish out a joke or two and play as a group.

 

Also if any of them accepts you i fully expect you to spy on them for me :0

 

Once you are inside i shall mail you a metal brush and your job and only job as a spy will be to go around and just use the brush to take the paint off of all the pink bright green and every other god forsaken poopy color these so called men of battle chose to put on their gear :)

 

If they are wearing the gear and refuse to take it off just invent a tickle game or something you gotta improvise sometimes.

 

Back to the topic: champs feel underwelming if played by a low stats account while scaling insanely strong on a chonky boy account.

 

So they have to go in order to help  reduce the number of immortal horned cocoa puffs running around Chaos :)

 

Also if you remove champs but dont nerf acid is gonna be a 2-3hit game.

Edited by Cipacadrinho

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On 4/29/2022 at 12:37 AM, elentari said:

Or just remove full loot pvp. Really that's the elephant in the room and it's always been the main reason people avoid it. Just ask people about why they avoid it and most of them will point that out. 

 

Been talking to a lot of people from freedom for the  past two years about why they don't pvp and the majority of them invoke these reasons (not all of them at once) 

 

1. I don't know how to pvp and wouldn't know where to start. 

2. I worked for my stuff or bought it with RL earned money and don't want to lose it. 

3. What do I even win in pvp that I can't get on freedom? The risk is too high vs the time investment. 

 

#1 could probably be solved by having a dedicated pvp tutorial, probably the best chance we'd have is having a player made one or some videos on youtube in that direction. 

 

#2 and #3 refer to items, skill & affinities. People simply don't want to lose their work and it's an unreasonable and unrealistic chance to expect the vast majority of wurmians to ever change that attitude. Wurm is a game about item/skill longevity and permanence. Full loot pvp is the total opposite of that concept. Wurm has simply 2 conflicting design stances that simply cannot synergize. People get lucky and get affinities and earn some good skills or outright buy them from the marks shop with RL money. They won't risk a RL money investment for something they don't understand due to #1. 

 

Been watching a lot of design theory videos on video games for the past few months and the general conclusion is : hardcore pvp sandbox games are a NICHE within the MMO genre and full loot PVP are a niche within that niche of games. There's a reason Chaos / Epic/ Defiance have the low population they have compared to the majority of wurmians. This will never absolutely change. 

 

Want more players to play pvp? Remove the barriers of conflicting game design choices for pvp to actually happen. Use systems like :

 

1. When dying items suffer a 10% ql loss (not damage but ql). 

2. Instead of forcing skill / affinity loss , give players killed in pvp a resurrection debuff. You get a CR / combat penalty for a short time but at the bonus of getting shortened imping timers in order to repair your gear. 

3. Instead of incentivizing players by killing players for loot, give players PVP points they can earn to spend for a variety of short term buffs (they can even be in the form of potions) : eg. temporary affinity potion, last 1 hr, stacks with food affinities (give pve people a reason to PVP), archery potion (first 5 arrows have higher chance to connect to a target), and hear me out here on this crazy idea.....actually being able to buy dragon scales / hide with PvP points. This would actually give many people from freedom a reason to come to chaos in the hopes of earning a set of dragon armour. 

 

These are just design suggestions but let's face it folks....NO amount of tweaks to pvp, champs, spells, gear, weapons, meditation, karma spells, will ever fix the elephant in the room , which is the conflicting design concepts between a game promoting longevity of items  / skills vs pvp which is the loss of items and skills. 

 

I know this will fall on deaf ears but think about this image...

 

200 people coming to chaos knowing they don't have to fear losing their hard work, bashing each other with axes, mauls, swords and whatever branch they find and actually having non-toxic fun. When was pvp last non toxic and fun? 

 

Game devs....at least try this idea, for a year...see what happens. At this low population for pvp, really what's there to lose at his point? 

I sort of agree and sort of...don’t? I am a newbie, never really PvP’d before, but I get the impression that your idea would also somewhat remove the stakes. With nothing to lose, what’s the point of winning?

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