wsrich

Connecting Island NFI - SFI - Chaos

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I withdraw my support for an eventual merger between NFI and SFI.  

 

Given the discussion and drama during the past few days/weeks regarding some issues on NFI, I can clearly understand why SFI residents would not support a merger and prefer to be left alone.  

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I would be against a merger, came to nfi for a fresh start.

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This is a no brainer. You had your fresh start, years ago, and I suspect it was not fresh at all, but laden with years of Wurm experience making you overlord over real beginners. Now you are sitting on your privileges.

 

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Posted (edited)

Not such a no-brainer at all.  Just because your mind is solidly made up does not mean that the matter is settled and beyond question.  My mind is mostly made up in the opposite direction for some sound and as far as I know unchanged reasons.  The vets that went to NFI are not simply sitting on privileges; they skewed an entire community dynamic - and I for one don't want that dynamic leavened back into SFI.

Edited by TheTrickster
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I don't think they should merge at all, coming from someone living on NFI. I live on Harmony and nothing but nice people here but first time around I was on the receiving end of griefing (Cadence) so I would not like to see that on SFI. I don't know why but SFI seems more civilised but I am happy where I am right now but for the people on SFI don't inflict it on them.

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On 4/27/2022 at 1:23 AM, Keenan said:

Then there are other concerns:

  • What of the effects on the economies? In particular, SFI's economy would literally transform NFI's economy overnight - for better or worse.
  • What of the effects on the people in both clusters? This thread is a testament to the fact that opinions are split.

 

Economy be dammed it always recovers so honestly who cares with rmt being gone there is no real life incentive to worry about the economy so price changes should not be a reason why you would postpone it
Given that it was stated originally that they would be merged at some point you could use that point to counter this here, after all the forums are but a small fraction of the population and often the most vocal ones of the bunch(as people love to remind me when ever i share my opinion on something) and at the end of the day people didn't want freedom servers but it was forced onto us, people didn't want release and pristine linked up but it was, people did not want xanadu linked up but it was, people did not want some of the epic map resets but it happened. At the end of the day merges always seem to happen when they said they would so don't break that consistency now merge them up once the code allows for them to be done.
I myself I won't care much even if its by means of portal(freedom to epic) or boat travel(preferred) I have chaos and cele to roam around on and that's big enough for me but I would still like nfi and sfi to be merged together at long last like the long lost brothers they are.

 

  

9 hours ago, DannyUK said:

I don't think they should merge at all, coming from someone living on NFI. I live on Harmony and nothing but nice people here but first time around I was on the receiving end of griefing (Cadence) so I would not like to see that on SFI. I don't know why but SFI seems more civilised but I am happy where I am right now but for the people on SFI don't inflict it on them.

So what you are saying is that we should connect them all except Candence? ;)

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6 hours ago, wipeout said:

Economy be dammed it always recovers so honestly who cares with rmt being gone there is no real life incentive to worry about the economy so price changes should not be a reason why you would postpone it
Given that it was stated originally that they would be merged at some point you could use that point to counter this here, after all the forums are but a small fraction of the population and often the most vocal ones of the bunch(as people love to remind me when ever i share my opinion on something) and at the end of the day people didn't want freedom servers but it was forced onto us, people didn't want release and pristine linked up but it was, people did not want xanadu linked up but it was, people did not want some of the epic map resets but it happened. At the end of the day merges always seem to happen when they said they would so don't break that consistency now merge them up once the code allows for them to be done.
I myself I won't care much even if its by means of portal(freedom to epic) or boat travel(preferred) I have chaos and cele to roam around on and that's big enough for me but I would still like nfi and sfi to be merged together at long last like the long lost brothers they are.

 

  

So what you are saying is that we should connect them all except Candence? ;)

That island is toxic, i've heard so many people having problems over there. I don't know what it is like now but the first few months were not good. I'm fine with how it is now, no merge.

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13 hours ago, DannyUK said:

[Cadence]That island is toxic, i've heard so many people having problems over there. I don't know what it is like now but the first few months were not good. I'm fine with how it is now, no merge.

I fail to get the logic. Cadence, by participation, makes approximately 60% of the player community of NFI. Reportedly, among parts of that subcommunity (where it is hard to specify how many of them are contributing) questionable conduct and social interaction appears to exist.

 

Now, taking your word (and I can confirm it from reports by other denizens of NFI) such behaviour does not or not remarkably exist on the two other servers. In other words, the "toxicity" did not even succeed to spread inside NFI, to the other 40%. Scrutinizing further, one may find that considerable parts, if not most of Cadence proper also are unaffected by.

 

How do you believe that such problematic conduct could spill over to the much greater and much more diverse SFI servers?

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Its just a numbers game, Cadence is a big server and its hardly surprising that a server with 200 people online (for example) is going to have a higher number of toxic players than one with 50 online.

 

Cadence is also a new server and has new players regularly directed to it by in-game prompts so there is probably increased competition over territory. These disputes could come up on any server but have more than likely been resolved on older servers, and have less players staking claims on Mel and Har so its less of an issue.

 

Tbh I think the whole "this island is toxic, that island is toxic" arguement further adds to the case of merging the servers, at the end of the day Wurm Online is the same game and I would hope most people see it as the same community.

 

Like it or not many of those toxic Cadence players have deeds on the other NFI islands, they regularly visit for trade, slayings etc, they also have alts on SFI, they could be your neighbour right now and you don't even realize it! Scary stuff.

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Posted (edited)

My "home" island is Xanadu, but I constantly visit other islands in the South cluster, for slayings and rifts and impalongs and just for fun. They are all part of the same playable area, as far as I'm concerned. And I want to be able to visit the North cluster slayings and rifts and impalongs too with my main.

 

The game is better when played together.

Edited by Lisimba
typo
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Some words about "toxicity".

 

Player conflicts occur everywhere. I tend to say if a population is "younger", meaning less established and experienced, they are likely to occur more often. More experienced players know ways to mitigate clashes of interest, e.g. preventing deeds being planted on their doorstep, roads or tunnels cut in "unfriendly takeover" etc., possibly have ways to contact players with competing interests in advance for negotiation. If that is not or less the case, conflicts may escalate in mutual tit for tat and hostilities, at best, frozen conflicts. That may spoil the atmosphere of whole areas for some time (believe me, I had that). 

 

Also, Cadence is the most densely populated area in Wurm. The deed count is around 798, compared to 866 on 4 times larger Xanadu, player count 120-180% of Xanadu as the next one. Denser population may be felt nice, but also makes troubles between players more likely.

 

When even the neighbouring servers don't report comparable issues, it is not to see that these problems would be contagious to the rest of Wurm. Rather it can be expected that they subside over time if they have not already done so.

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The trouble is, people often complain about toxic neighbours (I used to live near some real 🌴-holes back in the day), but they rarely talk about the good people they meet (I also used to live near some of the best peple back in the day).

 

A server might just get a reputation for being toxic because it has a lot of players in close quarters, and everyone is really complaining about the same 🌴-holes which inflates the numbers.

 

It can also be down to simple culture clash - there is one server on the old cluster I really hate visiting (spoiler, it isn't chaos!) because of how stuck up the community sounds half the time.  But, that's their culture, and thats ok because they live there and I don't.

 

Arguing that a server culture is toxic, and should be kept apart, is a very narrow minded view, as you're assuming it will always be toxic and in some way needs to prove itself to you that it isn't.  Either that or you're arguing based on culture shock, which isn't the best grounds to argue.

 

The only valid argument against a merge was given by Keenan (i.e. a technical challenge beyond what would normally be expected).  However, this is an argument that will eventually go away (we hope), and after that I can look forward to seeing the new lands.

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First off, I'm on record as being against a merge, precisely because of the toxicity I've heard about on NFI. Second, the following suggestion just popped in my head, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work or even if I'm completely serious about. That said, here it is:

 

The connecting island is PvP and should be accessible via sailing and portal. There should be an impenetrable wall running across the length of it E-W, with a gatehouse in the middle (and possibly one in the ocean). Control of the gatehouse permits the controlling party to either lock or unlock the gate(s), allowing or prohibiting transfer between clusters. The PvP should not be full-loot, rather the person who kills the other gets to choose 1 item from the loser's inventory to loot, so you don't lose everything you're bringing over. Also, wagons, ships, etc. would get a cooldown in order to loot them, maybe 24 hrs.

This scenario would enable those who are either for or against a merge to fight for their beliefs, giving us a much clearer picture of the sentiment of the entire population towards a merge. It would also mean that any migration would need to be in a large, well armed caravan. I would envision large camps/deeds of the competing factions scattered along well-traveled routes, and clusters near the gatehouse (for both fighting for control of gatehouse and also to facilitate retrieval of corpses and wagons,etc.)

 

I'm not a PvP'er, never will be in it's current form, but if I heard there was mass migration coming down from NFI, I'd be tempted to go join the fight against it.

Is this a stupid, silly suggestion? Yeah. Is it the worst I've seen? No. Am I still against a flat-out merger? Yes.

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18 hours ago, Ekcin said:

I fail to get the logic. Cadence, by participation, makes approximately 60% of the player community of NFI. Reportedly, among parts of that subcommunity (where it is hard to specify how many of them are contributing) questionable conduct and social interaction appears to exist.

 

Now, taking your word (and I can confirm it from reports by other denizens of NFI) such behaviour does not or not remarkably exist on the two other servers. In other words, the "toxicity" did not even succeed to spread inside NFI, to the other 40%. Scrutinizing further, one may find that considerable parts, if not most of Cadence proper also are unaffected by.

 

How do you believe that such problematic conduct could spill over to the much greater and much more diverse SFI servers?

Well there was a lot more players when it was first released, I don't know how many have left like I did back then but I know the numbers dropped. I don't know what it is like on there now, I can only tell you what I experienced of it and what I heard about Cadence.

 

It could easily spill over onto those servers, those said toxic players can just sail there whenever they want and grief away. If any toxic players already left, as soon as they get news you can now sail there freely I'm sure some will be back. If it did turn out these toxic players were from SFI anyway making deeds on NFI then they must have some split personality because I don't see it happening on SFI now.

 

I respect you decision on wanting it to merge and we are all entitled to our own opinions but mine is I don't want it to merge. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DannyUK said:

Well there was a lot more players when it was first released, I don't know how many have left like I did back then but I know the numbers dropped. I don't know what it is like on there now, I can only tell you what I experienced of it and what I heard about Cadence.

I would say the experience playing Cadence today is dramatically difference to the experience on day 1, server communities will grow over time and Cadence has had 2 years to settle down since launch. I've met many great people on Cadence who are very kind and are always willing to go the extra mile to help people out, and some of which joined since the launch. I find it unsettling people are branding my server toxic based on what they've heard and what it was like at launch which (by todays standards) is unrealistic of the server now.

 

1 hour ago, DannyUK said:

It could easily spill over onto those servers, those said toxic players can just sail there whenever they want and grief away. If any toxic players already left, as soon as they get news you can now sail there freely I'm sure some will be back. If it did turn out these toxic players were from SFI anyway making deeds on NFI then they must have some split personality because I don't see it happening on SFI now.

I can't say I see this happening on NFI now either tbh, there is a certain amount of argument around territory disputes that comes up, but to the best of my knowledge Cadence doesn't have a Wrecking Crew that regularly sails over to Mel or Har just to grief someone, and if it did this would fall short of the rules imo - report it.

Edited by HawkHawk
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Love the players here spewing about "NFI Toxicity," somehow not realizing their own mindsets and attitudes are toxic and harmful themselves. Pretty pathetic.

SFI experiences toxicity just the same as NFI, you just hear about it more from NFI as it's smaller, far more populated, and full of newer players who're unfamiliar with how to prevent and handle issues.

 

A merge is more than likely going to happen at some point. Enough with the needless fearmongering against a large portion of the playerbase, just relax and continue on playing rather than spreading negativity and hostility before anything actually occurs.

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2 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

I'm not a PvP'er, never will be in it's current form, but if I heard there was mass migration coming down from NFI, I'd be tempted to go join the fight against it.

Is this a stupid, silly suggestion? Yeah. Is it the worst I've seen? No. Am I still against a flat-out merger? Yes.

Well, I would find it revolting to be forced to PvP to visit other PvE servers. Also, such a construct would raise tons of problems, bugs, and exploits.

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On 7/20/2022 at 4:22 AM, Synjor said:

Love the players here spewing about "NFI Toxicity," somehow not realizing their own mindsets and attitudes are toxic and harmful themselves. Pretty pathetic.

Smell the irony.

 

I would be interested to hear the explanation of how my preferring to no longer have rude and selfish neighbours is toxic and harmful.  I experienced a huge amount more anti-social behaviour in months on NFI than I did in years on SFI.  Although, maybe you aren't referring to me, because I am not "spewing about NFI toxicity" so much as saying I found the dominant culture to be thoroughly unenjoyable.  Maybe that culture has matured somewhat, but as of not so long ago it was still apparent in comments to the effect that only opinions that count are those of NFIers.

 

My mindset and attitude? 

  1. Everyone should get to play HOW they want.
  2. Everyone should be treated with respect.
  3. Everyone who can use my assistance may have it.

 

My solid experience across 3 northern islands tells me that a merge would likely damage 1 and 2.  Everyone getting to play WHERE they want is already limited, so continuing to limit it and thus allowing everyone to continue playing HOW they want seems to make sense to me.

 

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Posted (edited)

As a Harmony player, i haven't seen much toxicity other than old players expecting new players to follow rules which aren't actually rules so out of pure curiosity:

 

 

Are the Cadence "toxic" incidents caused by things like a player deeding too close to another player and then escalating to other attempts to drive said player away from their land?

 

I have seen this happen several times where new player, who often first consulted the game rules, finds a piece of public land and plans a settlement there. Old player living nearby calls it "rude" because in Wurm people grew to consider it as such while in most if not all other games an empty spot is up for grabs for everyone?

Someone new has cut oak trees in someone else's perimeter, not knowing even what a perimeter is? Seen that happen as well and that new player was being smeared all over Freedom chat for the next 3 days, instead of having someone explain to them why that might be considered rude by some?

 

There are more instances like that, where old players have been taught that "this and this is rude" while none of that is true, outside of my settlement i have no right to tell people what to do or which particular bush they can prune.

More so, players coming to try Wurm from other games expect undeeded things to be free for all.

The fact that so many people parrot the "you iz griefer, everyone will now hate you!" because they were told that 10 years ago and either want to claim rights to land they don't own and don't want to pay for or simply because they repeat those words without thinking is just causing more issues.

 

None of this being in game rules which is likely the only piece of documentation new players read, if any, before jumping in, puts the new player in defensive mode from the very start, from their first interaction with other players in some cases.

 

The above is just me guessing the root cause of the toxic interactions, can someone confirm if that is the case? Because if it is, it's the auld gits who came from SFI to blame, not the new players.

Edited by Locath
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Posted (edited)

I think the Wurm community has built a lot of unwritten rules over the years, worse still these rules seems to vary from player to player, as does the reaction when someone comes across a new player not following these invisible rules they've had pretty much 0 chance of learning. I imagine we are probably all guilty of breaking some unwritten rule at some point, generally thats how we learn they are there in the first place.

 

While I do not doubt some players have subjected people to some truely nasty behavior over the years (that risk exists anywhere online and its why most places including Wurm has moderators) I think the majority of scenarios I see branded as "toxic" on Wurm are just blown way out of proportion. The word is thrown about so easily now and people do not even see the irony in it. I think a lot of the toxicity could be banished with just a bit more tolerance on all sides.

 

Forgive and forget, and if its truely unforgiveable let a moderator deal with it and move on.

 

Edited by HawkHawk
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See all the talk of 'toxicity' of SFI or NFI?

 

That right there is plenty of reason not to merge.

 

If the starting point is 'the others' are toxic, it only ever goes down hill from there.

 

Also.... I've asked many times and never had anyone logically explain:  As an NFI player who spent months building my skills so I can offer something valuable to the economy, why could I possibly want to suddenly face people who have spent years building their skills?  What is in it for me?

 

Saying because SFI is better doesn't pass the smell test. If it is better, play there and don't worry about NFI. 

 

If it is something about the pvp servers, it also doesn't pass the smell test.  I see people in Freedom talkign about pvp.... on the pve server.  I see people 'saying' they are pvpers, living on the pve servers.  Totally illogical to complain there aren't enough people on the pvp servers when you spend most of YOUR time on the pve servers. Duh.

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35 minutes ago, Homestead said:

See all the talk of 'toxicity' of SFI or NFI?

 

That right there is plenty of reason not to merge.

 

If the starting point is 'the others' are toxic, it only ever goes down hill from there.

 

Also.... I've asked many times and never had anyone logically explain:  As an NFI player who spent months building my skills so I can offer something valuable to the economy, why could I possibly want to suddenly face people who have spent years building their skills?  What is in it for me?

 

Saying because SFI is better doesn't pass the smell test. If it is better, play there and don't worry about NFI. 

 

If it is something about the pvp servers, it also doesn't pass the smell test.  I see people in Freedom talkign about pvp.... on the pve server.  I see people 'saying' they are pvpers, living on the pve servers.  Totally illogical to complain there aren't enough people on the pvp servers when you spend most of YOUR time on the pve servers. Duh.

 

By your logic, there shouldn't be any new players trying to play wurm on any server, because the reasons you put up there

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Locath said:

As a Harmony player, i haven't seen much toxicity other than old players expecting new players to follow rules which aren't actually rules so out of pure curiosity:

 

 

Are the Cadence "toxic" incidents caused by things like a player deeding too close to another player and then escalating to other attempts to drive said player away from their land?

 

There are more instances like that, where old players have been taught that "this and this is rude" while none of that is true, outside of my settlement i have no right to tell people what to do or which particular bush they can prune.

More so, players coming to try Wurm from other games expect undeeded things to be free for all.

 

None of this being in game rules which is likely the only piece of documentation new players read, if any, before jumping in, puts the new player in defensive mode from the very start, from their first interaction with other players in some cases.

 

The above is just me guessing the root cause of the toxic interactions, can someone confirm if that is the case? Because if it is, it's the auld gits who came from SFI to blame, not the new players.

i can tell you that i have been on both ends on this situation and its not just "old players" (or it depends on your point of view about who is or is not an old player)a lot of old players know better than to claim ownership of anything outside their deeds(including their perimeters)(myself included) but the problem is also gms who now enforce those rules that do not exist.

 

 now if you accuse anyone of anything harmless and its true, that means they are wrong.

and yes that said, most people are nice on every server.

Edited by Tpikol
edited to avoid removal.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tor said:

 

By your logic, there shouldn't be any new players trying to play wurm on any server, because the reasons you put up there

 

 

??  No.  That isn't a logical conclusion from my statements.

 

And you didn't address my question: What's in it for me?  Why SHOULD I want a merger when I only stand to lose?

Edited by Homestead

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3 hours ago, Locath said:

As a Harmony player, i haven't seen much toxicity other than old players expecting new players to follow rules which aren't actually rules so out of pure curiosity:

 

 

Are the Cadence "toxic" incidents caused by things like a player deeding too close to another player and then escalating to other attempts to drive said player away from their land?

 

I have seen this happen several times where new player, who often first consulted the game rules, finds a piece of public land and plans a settlement there. Old player living nearby calls it "rude" because in Wurm people grew to consider it as such while in most if not all other games an empty spot is up for grabs for everyone?

Someone new has cut oak trees in someone else's perimeter, not knowing even what a perimeter is? Seen that happen as well and that new player was being smeared all over Freedom chat for the next 3 days, instead of having someone explain to them why that might be considered rude by some?

 

There are more instances like that, where old players have been taught that "this and this is rude" while none of that is true, outside of my settlement i have no right to tell people what to do or which particular bush they can prune.

More so, players coming to try Wurm from other games expect undeeded things to be free for all.

The fact that so many people parrot the "you iz griefer, everyone will now hate you!" because they were told that 10 years ago and either want to claim rights to land they don't own and don't want to pay for or simply because they repeat those words without thinking is just causing more issues.

 

None of this being in game rules which is likely the only piece of documentation new players read, if any, before jumping in, puts the new player in defensive mode from the very start, from their first interaction with other players in some cases.

 

The above is just me guessing the root cause of the toxic interactions, can someone confirm if that is the case? Because if it is, it's the auld gits who came from SFI to blame, not the new players.

 

Well I won't name names but in my situation it was a case of having a deed on Cadence for 7 months and there was 10 perimeter tiles between us with trees acting as a screen between the deeds.

 

One day the guy comes over and asks me "Can I cut these trees between the deed?" I told him I prefer if you didn't, I liked the screen between us and it won't just be open space across deeds. He said "ok I will chop them some other place" thought that was nice of him to ask. The next day I log in and the trees have gone between the deeds and I'm left thinking why would you even ask me if you are going to chop them anyway? Now I know there is no rule of chopping them in my perimeter but it wasn't nice to ask and then do it anyway.

 

I saw the guy moving around on deed so I sent a kind message asking why would you chop the trees when asking me the previous day if he could cut them? Got no response even though he was active at the time. I had the feeling he was wanting to drive me away so he could expand maybe but I had a long hard think about it and couldn't be bothered with the hassle thinking "is this just going to go on and on" I didn't want the drama and stress of it.

 

I left everything behind, offered all the stuff in chat for free if they wanted it and played Unlimited for 8 months. Now I am back on Harmony and like where I live, very peaceful.

 

What i've heard from other people on Cadence is deed issues also yes, walling off certain areas and taking up large chunks of land stopping people expanding their smaller deeds. Bearing in mind this was a year ago, Cadence may have changed and I am sure there are nice people on there but I know this person who griefed me still plays on there although he is on ignore but if that spilled over into SFI it wouldn't be good. I always try to help new players where I can but my view will not change about merging servers no matter how many people that don't like my opinion.

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