Connecting Island NFI - SFI - Chaos

[Elisha 27]

2 minutes ago, MordosKull said:

😆

 

I mean, you're arguing segregation. It's what came to mind.

 

 

Calling anyone a racist for not wanting merge servers is just wee bit over the top.

[Archaed 2,280]

I think this is close enough to poe's law to consider the thread done. 

[TheTrickster 2,284]

21 minutes ago, Archaed said:

I think this is close enough to poe's law to consider the thread done. 

Yeah, some weird poe variant (also, is there a racist equivalent of Godwin?)

[Coach 196]

3 hours ago, Elisha said:

This isn't speculation. We already have data of what happens when you merge. It improves nothing, and only destroys the newer servers.

This was proven with Pristine and Release, then again with Xanadu. It only benefits a handful of older players on the older servers, and only for a short time, and is completely destructive to the communities and the economies of the newer isolated servers.

Let me say something before the close topic may happen. On the Pristine, Release, Xadadu, they didnt create them with a PVP server, unlike the NFI created with a Defiance server with portal mechanic.

And the mechanics of PVP and PVE switch are differentiated by SFI(sailing) and NFI(portal) respectively. 

Chaos, independence vs Pristine, Release, Xandadu have similar mechanic, so the communities can merged more gracefully. They might only have a economic problem.

But this time SFI vs NFI have a different mechanic, so the communities might have a lot to say. This time we have a economy and a mechanical problem.

Pristine, Release and Xanadu can be as a reference but it was proven pretty much like nothing. Because situations are not the same.

 

Remember what people have said

15 hours ago, Locath said:

Defiance was created this way because people asked for a PvP server which doesn't allow for what happens on Chaos, like farming PMK stuff to sell it to PvE players, having a safe heaven just a border cross away to PvE server and so on. Players were asking for this exact solution for years.

.

 

7 hours ago, wsrich said:

Rolf actually said it would happen when it was all being planned out. WO Steam Discussion - City Hall - Wurm Online Forum

 Oh ya. After Rolf discussed with other devs, Rolf did said "As the servers mature we merge them into the main cluster."

 

8 hours ago, wsrich said:

Assumption is not the way i intended to go when joining NFI

That's why people are assuming there will be a merge. 

 

So the main questions "Are the servers all mature now?" "Is it still stand after Rolf left?"

Edited April 20, 2022 by Coach

[Coach 196]

After further discussion and seeing the 

8 hours ago, wsrich said:

Rolf actually said it would happen when it was all being planned out. WO Steam Discussion - City Hall - Wurm Online Forum

 

this is wrong

10 hours ago, Coach said:

They didn't make any promise about a merge on SFI and NFI before and after the steam launch.

 

Because Rolf said "As the servers mature we merge them into main cluster. This is a firm "YES"

9 hours ago, wsrich said:

And the point i have made is to Highlight a set answer "Yes" or "No" in the merge

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Coach

[Elisha 27]

They were on the same cluster, PvP was already there You could get to Epic from those servers. Quite frankly, if you went to pristine or release you weren't someone who was interested in PvP. Only a very tiny group of people actually went to Epic from those servers (I know this for a fact because I lived in a village that had had a PvP group for Epic). You can try and make this about cluster merging but it's really just more server merging. PvP is separate from PvE and isn't even apart of the discussion because Defiance is really more of an Epic situation then a Chaos anyhow.

 

All the servers, with the exception of defiance, have the same mechanics. Defiance is a mix of Epic and Chaos. Epic is separated, just as Defiance. Again, PvP is not even part of the discussion because it's a separated server so it wont be merged with anything, like Epic.

 

You still haven't tackled the what I said. That we have data of what happens when you merge servers, and it's disastrous for the newer servers and it's communities and it's economy, and does nothing to help the old servers. It only gives a short term benefit to the few highest level players. That's a fact. We know this is a fact. We have 2 incidents of it to prove it.

 

And anything Rolf had to say before he sold his share in the company has no bearing on whats been said by the new owners through the Devs since he left. They've been pretty consistent, which is that won't rule it out, but they have no plans for it.

The fact that Rolf has been wrong twice on server merging, this new position is not surprising. It shows that the new owners and the current Devs have learned from Rolf's mistakes.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Elisha

[Ekcin 2,407]

While I cannot tell much about Pristine and Release, I can about Xanadu which was, when I started end of 2017, given the general development trend of WO, a thriving and working server with most of the population of all WO.  Certainly it did not meet the figures at the time of its foundation, but not even closely that of NFI with nearly 20k users at start. So Xanadu, about which I may tell, is in no way an example for a failed server merge, with a separation lasting no more than a few months. 

 

It is therefore outright dishonest to wildly assert without corroborating data. And while Rolf certainly only has a minority share in Wurm today, he certainly is kind of "elder statesman" there 😎, for better or worse. So we can learn nothing ouf of the "bad examples" of Pristine, Release, and Xanadu, other than it would not be wise to create ever more servers in a failing attempt to boost participation.

 

A server merge, on contrary, could revive or lure back at least some of the 30k+ players who did log in on WO since the steam launch as it may promise them experiences they lacked so far.

[Elisha 27]

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

A server merge, on contrary, could revive or lure back at least some of the 30k+ players who did log in on WO since the steam launch as it may promise them experiences they lacked so far.

 

Again, we already have data. That's is patently false. That line is always thrown out and proven false twice. It does nothing to prop up the old servers and has detrimental impact on the new servers.

Clearly i was wrong and you guys have learned nothing and are hell bent on repeating the same mistakes over and over hoping for different results.

Getting new players has never been a problem for Wurm. Keeping them has been. Wurm has not gained players from server merging and has lost players when that happens.

 

Yes, Xanadu is an example of failed server merge. It's not as glowing an example as pristine and release because

1) We knew before it was going to happen even before it opened because they advertised it as such and many waited until the merge to head over instead of making new characters (which helped for a short time to offset the number of people who left the server...or the game outright).

2) it still had something going for it. That being at the crossroads of several trade routes before you could simply choose a server destination.

 

The spiral started after server merge, but mostly on the interior. After the server hop change the rest of the server dropped off real fast. Xanadu's few remaining communities were located largely on the coast at points where serve hops happened. Xanadu still maintained some life as a central trading area. Going strictly by the numbers is false reading as many people sold their accounts and deeds, and so really only a few active players existed, owning multiple deeds. Now the area and alliance I was in at Somerholt was probably a bit excessive on that point, but it wasn't uncommon across the entire server. The mineral reset didn't help matters either, so server merging alone wasn't Xanadu's problem ( boat routing and mineral reset also playing a part), but it was the server merger that started the ball rolling.

 

As for Pristine and Release. There's no doubting that. Those communities died and died fast because of server merging, plain and simple. If not for Xanadu being able to hold on a bit longer as trading center, it likely would have died just as quickly as several of the interior communities played out as such...but all that did was slow the it down as compared to Pristine and Release.

 

Elder Statesmen is not the boss. But getting his input on the game he created, on the code he knows better then anyone is far cry from "Rolf said this, therefore it's going to happen". You didn't make that claim so I'm not pointing this comment at you. Someone else did. You should be able to read enough into to know that. A comment on plan Rolf had before he sold the company (trading direct ownership in ClubAB for stock in Chess to be specific) does not quantify that statement post sale as the de-facto position post sale. What's been said since the sale is far more relevant then anything said before. And what has been said? "We aren't ruling it out, but we don't have any plans at the moment."...which is a complete about face from Rolf said. So the point others are bringing up "Well Rolf said" is irrelevant at this point.  You aren't able to make the distinction of that being the argument being made? yes Rolf still has input, as he should. But for anyone to use "Well Rolf said, therfore it will happen" when Rolf is longer the single owner and sole guider of the games focus for the future is not an argument.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Elisha

[Coach 196]

2 hours ago, Elisha said:

Again, PvP is not even part of the discussion because it's a separated server so it wont be merged with anything, like Epic.

If Cadence, Melody and Harmony merge into SFI. That means the people will encounter the PVP items from Chaos. People from Chaos are sailing(not portal) to Cadence, Melody and Harmony. 

The NFI people didn't have such sailing mechanic playstyle before the merge. They chose NFI, part of the reason is the separation from PVP because of portal.

 

Now people are saying NFI merge with Chaos. NFI - SFI - Chaos. Unless u cut off the sailing part from Chaos to NFI in the merge (That also mean items are separate between SFI and NFI in the merge.)

 

Remember the title is Connecting Island NFI - SFI - Chaos. Not NFI - SFI.

 

NFI - SFI - Chaos = NFI - SFI - PVP. So PVP is part of the discussion.

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Coach

[Tor 523]

1 hour ago, Elisha said:

 

Again, we already have data. That's is patently false. That line is always thrown out and proven false twice. It does nothing to prop up the old servers and has detrimental impact on the new servers.

Clearly i was wrong and you guys have learned nothing and are hell bent on repeating the same mistakes over and over hoping for different results.

Getting new players has never been a problem for Wurm. Keeping them has been. Wurm has not gained players from server merging and has lost players when that happens.

 

Yes, Xanadu is an example of failed server merge. It's not as glowing an example as pristine and release because

1) We knew before it was going to happen even before it opened because they advertised it as such and many waited until the merge to head over instead of making new characters (which helped for a short time to offset the number of people who left the server...or the game outright).

2) it still had something going for it. That being at the crossroads of several trade routes before you could simply choose a server destination.

 

The spiral started after server merge, but mostly on the interior. After the server hop change the rest of the server dropped off real fast. Xanadu's few remaining communities were located largely on the coast at points where serve hops happened. Xanadu still maintained some life as a central trading area. Going strictly by the numbers is false reading as many people sold their accounts and deeds, and so really only a few active players existed, owning multiple deeds. Now the area and alliance I was in at Somerholt was probably a bit excessive on that point, but it wasn't uncommon across the entire server. The mineral reset didn't help matters either, so server merging alone wasn't Xanadu's problem ( boat routing and mineral reset also playing a part), but it was the server merger that started the ball rolling.

 

As for Pristine and Release. There's no doubting that. Those communities died and died fast because of server merging, plain and simple. If not for Xanadu being able to hold on a bit longer as trading center, it likely would have died just as quickly as several of the interior communities played out as such...but all that did was slow the it down as compared to Pristine and Release.

 

Elder Statesmen is not the boss. But getting his input on the game he created, on the code he knows better then anyone is far cry from "Rolf said this, therefore it's going to happen". You didn't make that claim so I'm not pointing this comment at you. Someone else did. You should be able to read enough into to know that. A comment on plan Rolf had before he sold the company (trading direct ownership in ClubAB for stock in Chess to be specific) does not quantify that statement post sale as the de-facto position post sale. What's been said since the sale is far more relevant then anything said before. And what has been said? "We aren't ruling it out, but we don't have any plans at the moment."...which is a complete about face from Rolf said. So the point others are bringing up "Well Rolf said" is irrelevant at this point.  You aren't able to make the distinction of that being the argument being made? yes Rolf still has input, as he should. But for anyone to use "Well Rolf said, therfore it will happen" when Rolf is longer the single owner and sole guider of the games focus for the future is not an argument.

 

The reason they merged pristine and release is because they end up being dead cluster pretty much, so to save them. If i remember right. Not the other way around as you saying. 

Xanadu had it own issues with lag that had me and so many other players i know pretty much get them stop playing.

Having one cluster and not separate ones would have benefit for new player retention in general. But now is too late for that as most are gone anyways.

And rising any economy arguments in wurm have nothing to do with the health of the game, as it's proven now again. It should be dynamic supply/demand that players that want to participate have to match that, not the other way around, which is the pretty much the reason the new cluster is created

[Tor 523]

6 hours ago, Archaed said:

I think this is close enough to poe's law to consider the thread done. 

 

Weird,  they have moderators and i see enough people willing to talk about this topic, why should it get closed instead of moderated?

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

The server merges were done after a community vote if my memory serves.

 

The joining of Release and Pristine to Xanadu wasn't detrimental.  What was detrimental was stale mechanics and promised updates/content that never materialised.

 

Player gods drove out the priests, and priest ALTs exploded into the scene.

 

The real killer was WU, it irrevocabley split the playerbase as WU was adding all the QoL updates that WO was not.

 

The merge didn't harm the cluster communities.  Join the world's, end the slow rotting death of the old cluster, and the rampant decay of the new one.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Etherdrifter

[Zexos 468]

Just merge the servers and let what happens, happen.  The players and the dev team will sort out any problems that arise when they occur.   

 

Anything else is just arguments about "what ifs" that are not happening and have not happened.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Zexos

[wsrich 155]

1 hour ago, Zexos said:

Just merge the servers and let what happens, happen.  The players and the dev team will sort out any problems that arise when they occur.   

 

Anything else is just arguments about "what ifs" that are not happening and have not happened.

 

Simple solution - or just let us buy tokens to get our accounts where we want them instead of letting them rot and years of hard work going down the pan 

[Ekcin 2,407]

16 hours ago, Elisha said:

 

Again, we already have data. That's is patently false. That line is always thrown out and proven false twice. It does nothing to prop up the old servers and has detrimental impact on the new servers.

Yes, we have data, and you are babbling patently nonsense.

Some data:

 

Those are Bdew's data showing the time around Xanadu start, in premium players (in 2020, they switched to unique logins weekly, which one may lament, but basically, at least on the long range won't but show mostly subbed players).

In parallel here, some long term observation (all players in Wurm) by Etherdrifter:

I won't repeat all quarrels around those data. But they clearly demonstrate that Xanadu participation, all lag issues notwithstanding, remained strong all the years. Frequently, Xanadu had more players than the rest of Freedom. Granted, at start, Xan may have cannibalized the smaller servers, which is one of the problems of ever releasing new ones. Nowadays, not few look relatively healthy, Release even astonishingly, maybe due to great players like Stanlee, Gaffer and others.

 

And mind that cluster opening is not single server opening. I absolutely fail to see a rush among the clusters after opening. What I fear is that NFIers in the end get frustrated. They got coins in coffers after half a year only, same with rifts, were "awarded" with a cruel and idiotic nerf of mining and woodcutting imbues and runes (thanks devs, worst in years, and I rarely if ever scold you), are cut off from Epic and Chaos, cannot get PMK wagons and banners, and, for practical reasons, never a drake or scale armour. Moreover, they are cruelly overpriced, for the silver they paid at insane rates they could long have bought a drake armour, and maybe even got one for free when attending each slaying. Not to mention decent equipment at 4 impalongs every year.

 

For an NFIer who has drawn what is called here "Arschkarte" (arse card) that way there are two ways: Start anew in SFI, or just think F.. you and leave. I know what I would do, and admire their patience.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Ekcin

[TheTrickster 2,284]

17 hours ago, Coach said:

They chose NFI, part of the reason is the separation from PVP because of portal.

To be fair, newcomers would have had no real idea of the difference between portal-to and sail-to, and the game was very much channeling new players into NFI.

 

 

[Eyesgood 2,121]

History bears out that Wurm lands initially open in isolation and then eventually open to all.  The wall will come down eventually.  It is inevitable.

[Coach 196]

2 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

To be fair, newcomers would have had no real idea of the difference between portal-to and sail-to

Wurm have so much to learn. Sometimes the CA help can't answer the questions. I have to experience and test it myself, which is the one of the core of this game to me. 

People might tell the new players the pros and cons about portal-to and sail-to, but at the end of the day player is one who play and choose what(mechanic) to play. 

And this takes time to figure out the mechanic and experience it. 

 

2 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

, and the game was very much channeling new players into NFI.

That means new players started on NFI(portal-to) mechanic. But when the time past and skill are up in NFI, they noticed that there is another part of wurm called SFI(sail-to) mechanic. 

They want to try experience it and see which mechanism suit them more. However, u can't transfer any skills that u grinded from NFI to SFI, need to make alt to SFI, and start over in order to experience SFI fully from NFI. Versa vice if u started from SFI to NFI.

 

Okay finally, u choose the mechanic that u like, like staying on NFI. But that means the person also choose the NFI people only, because of the high barrier of two clusters. 

What i purposed in Not when. But how. SFI+NFI merging is that. People can still choose the mechanic/environment they like, but at the same time they can choose to travel to SFI and NFI back and forward with a low barrier of two cluster, SFI+NFI people can interact with each other on the same character and same skills.

 

The proposal is the mechanic should be separated, but the people from SFI and NFI should interact with each other more with a low barrier. Like closer but not distanced. Think SFI + NFI as Defiance + Cadence, Melody, Harmony. Different mechanic but closer. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Coach

[Sandyar 524]

When Freedom started it was by closing down two servers. In my opinion that was a good decision. Chaos should never have been connected to pve by sailing.

 

Now there is to many servers and dead clusters on sfi. A merge will only make that worse and cause a descent in player count to go faster.

 

At Steam release there were a one time golden chance to clean up the server mess but none had the guts to do it, like Rolf had. Now it to late to fix, sadly.

 

Pvp in wurm can only support one server, it why defiance never gets a success, keeping chaos kills it. Epic is long dead and influence nothing anymore.

 

[HawkHawk 299]

6 hours ago, Coach said:

8 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

To be fair, newcomers would have had no real idea of the difference between portal-to and sail-to

Wurm have so much to learn. Sometimes the CA help can't answer the questions. I have to experience and test it myself, which is the one of the core of this game to me. 

People might tell the new players the pros and cons about portal-to and sail-to, but at the end of the day player is one who play and choose what(mechanic) to play. 

And this takes time to figure out the mechanic and experience it. 

I suspect this means by the time a new player has enough knowledge to make an informed desicion either way, they have already invested a lot of time in potentially the wrong side.

 

Maybe the difference between portal and sail-to could be better communicated in the tutorials or starter island interface when picking a server.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by HawkHawk

[Cipacadrinho 390]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:03 AM, Archaed said:

I'm against a merge too, this is just either a desire to capitalise on a market, or just wanting to look at different tiles. 

 

Tiles dont play or pay for the game tho.

 

People do.

 

With 500 people on at peak time and having an average of 2-3 premed toon/player it means taht 150-200 people even play Wurm.

 

Launching the game on a new cluster made sense at the time because would allow new players to have a better experience just as two years later after a draught of players and content it makes more sense to merge.

 

Any business in the world consolidates not expand when figures go down. 

 

Is time to consolidate Wurm clusters into one too.

[Coach 196]

3 hours ago, HawkHawk said:

I suspect this means by the time a new player has enough knowledge to make an informed desicion either way, they have already invested a lot of time in potentially the wrong side.

 

Maybe the difference between portal and sail-to could be better communicated in the tutorials or starter island interface when picking a server.

Something like this, etc

On 2/13/2022 at 5:51 PM, Bloodreina said:

It is one of the very best games that I ever played, but also one of the games where I felt most lonely. Yes, I did tried finding friends, and, generally, a community on NFI and I failed. Most people that reached out to me were from SFI and while I didn't had the chance to talk too much with them, they did sound nice and helpful. However, considering I do have more than three years of both premium time and upkeep on NFI, I really didn't felt like spending even more money to create a new avatar on SFI. And even if I would, I would still only have access to a limited number of events (those on SFI).

on the It's about time post. (NFI, SFI, versa vice)

 

Mechanics could be explained by tutorials(hear from others), although the best way is experiencing them by urself(take times) in wurm IMO.

 

But when comes to people, haven't heard a tutorial can distinguish the people who are gonna be suitable for u. May be the Sorting Hat or match dating company IDK. 

 

Imagine SFI + NFI merge as the four PVE and PVP(Defiance) servers on NFI. Skills transfer and people can switch whenever they want, interact with whoever they want.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Coach

[MordosKull 822]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:58 PM, Archaed said:

I think this is close enough to poe's law to consider the thread done. 

 

I just simply made an observation that your stated argument for keeping the NFI and SFI communities and people segregated is hauntingly familiar to the segregationist arguments put forth in the past that we all, as mankind, have learned were not good.

 

I didn't like how you essentially said that it's for their own good and individual uniqueness as a reason to keep the communities and people apart. History..

 

It wasn't gaslighting or anything like that, so those above that ripped off their office clothes to expose their hero capes beneath can take a breath and regroup. It's ok! You can handle intellectual dissent!  

 

Keeping communities artificially separated is not for anyone's good.

[Archaed 2,280]

Also, why do people think connecting the servers consolidates the player base? 

[BattleWall 217]

1 hour ago, MordosKull said:

 

I just simply made an observation that your stated argument for keeping the NFI and SFI communities and people segregated is hauntingly familiar to the segregationist arguments put forth in the past that we all, as mankind, have learned were not good.

 

I didn't like how you essentially said that it's for their own good and individual uniqueness as a reason to keep the communities and people apart. History..

 

It wasn't gaslighting or anything like that, so those above that ripped off their office clothes to expose their hero capes beneath can take a breath and regroup. It's ok! You can handle intellectual dissent!  

 

Keeping communities artificially separated is not for anyone's good.

They aren't artificially separated. They are two completely different clusters. This is just like any other game with different servers. You have a choice where you play. You can make a new character and play on the cluster that you want. I have enjoyed my time on the NFI cluster since it started made plenty of friends don't want to see SFI come into play. Many people play on both clusters if the servers were to merge the amount of money being made to keep wurm alive would diminish and we might as well just make Wurm Online its own Wurm Unlimited server with no more development at that point.