Plans for population growth?

[Stinboi 363]

1 hour ago, Radircs said:

I am all up for Wurm 2. Keep strong elements (the terraforming and the current tile based World desinge that gives the game a uniqe look, the crafting depth is fine)  and improve on elemnts that are failing (the lack luster comabt system,  idealistic a real 3D underground that get also rid of the problems with bridges, better pipeline for skins and decoraticv elemnts to get them faster out as money source so you can drop the subscritpion model to a maybe smaller premium effect) with a entierly new code base that is maybe better suited for it then the current one.

 

Its not that I think Wurm will die anytime soon. It can relativ easy be maintained on a small budget and as long as its a surpluss under the line it will keep runing maybe without updates but yeah. Its just the questions are we happy with this as players? And can the devs/owner be happy with somthing that will generate just small amounts of revenue but is not growing when ther is potantial to do so?

 

 

This will not happen, wurm is what it is. dont expect a remake or wurm 2 anytime soon.

 

What ive been missing is more end game content, so it will be more then just a endless grind, otherwise i think most players are happy with the old school look.

 

If we wanted a more modern game, that wouldnt be hard to find.

[Archaed 2,280]

I just also want to point out the whole "drop the subscription" argument would lead to aggressive microtransaction and likely making deep purchasing and upkeep something that would be a luxury far beyond what it currently is. 

 

It would mean shifting the game to cater towards encouraging whales and pay to win, as a small user base would need to generate a lot of income at a steady monthly rate, it's untenable. 

 

 

[Archaed 2,280]

1 hour ago, Stinboi said:

 

This will not happen, wurm is what it is. dont expect a remake or wurm 2 anytime soon.

 

What ive been missing is more end game content, so it will be more then just a endless grind, otherwise i think most players are happy with the old school look.

 

If we wanted a more modern game, that wouldnt be hard to find.

What end game content that isn't combat related would you think of? 

[Stinboi 363]

40 minutes ago, Archaed said:

What end game content that isn't combat related would you think of? 

 

why cant it be combate related?

 

Not gonne go in to any specific here, but theres no doubt that out of the 120(?) skills, theres very little use to 90% of them so potential in Wurm is big.

Noone can deny that wurm is mostly just a long big grind with very little reward. building is fun but that is very limited to most people becouse of the cost.

 

After 2 years of Wurm i do notice my interest is shrinking and reason for that is that i have no idea what to do when i log on.

 

Also think this is the main reason why its so hard to keep new players.

 

Dont misunderstand me, i do think Wurm is one of the better games ive played, mainly becouse it offer something you dont find in any other games, which is rare.

[snars 19]

3 hours ago, Stinboi said:

 

why cant it be combate related?

 

Not gonne go in to any specific here, but theres no doubt that out of the 120(?) skills, theres very little use to 90% of them so potential in Wurm is big.

Noone can deny that wurm is mostly just a long big grind with very little reward. building is fun but that is very limited to most people becouse of the cost.

 

After 2 years of Wurm i do notice my interest is shrinking and reason for that is that i have no idea what to do when i log on.

 

Also think this is the main reason why its so hard to keep new players.

 

Dont misunderstand me, i do think Wurm is one of the better games ive played, mainly becouse it offer something you dont find in any other games, which is rare.

you hit the nail on the head very well for a lot of people that i spoke to,

 

since I moved to Wurm unlimited I am finding more and more content, yes it lacks some updates but there's a wealth of good stuff over there including mini games and its low cost for players. Pretty much something for everyone.

 

Lack of new content in wurm online is a massive problem, it feels stale, like an abandoned game and it seems when we do get new content we get a load of bugs and poorly thought out ideas that upsets players.

[contestani 94]

8 hours ago, Archaed said:

 

 

Why don't we just make a different game and call it wurm? 

 

No , because if wurm no have  enough players , the game needs evolve or improve to attract more people to play . A game is a computer program not is a immutable thing, can be improved , the problem is how many lines of code to change and what problems will be if change something, or how is the code as  readable or clear. 

IF is a spaghetti code then better start from scratch or a new game. Or continue in the same current situation.

Edited March 11, 2022 by contestani

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

8 hours ago, Archaed said:

It would mean shifting the game to cater towards encouraging whales and pay to win,

 

Sorry to break it to you, but that's where we are already.

[Archaed 2,280]

2 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

Sorry to break it to you, but that's where we are already.

Lol

[Archaed 2,280]

10 hours ago, Stinboi said:

 

why cant it be combate related?

 

Not gonne go in to any specific here, but theres no doubt that out of the 120(?) skills, theres very little use to 90% of them so potential in Wurm is big.

Noone can deny that wurm is mostly just a long big grind with very little reward. building is fun but that is very limited to most people becouse of the cost.

 

After 2 years of Wurm i do notice my interest is shrinking and reason for that is that i have no idea what to do when i log on.

 

Also think this is the main reason why its so hard to keep new players.

 

Dont misunderstand me, i do think Wurm is one of the better games ive played, mainly becouse it offer something you dont find in any other games, which is rare.

Because combat already has an endgame, pvp. 

 

This is what makes the term "endgame" so god dang boring. You have a game with over 130 skills, complete freedom to shape the world, and people still view endgame as whacking things with metal sticks. 

 

It doesn't matter how much combat is changed, reworked, updated, whatever. It's still a tiny part of a game of infinite possibility and doesn't deserve to be the crowning piece of what endgame is. 

[snars 19]

6 hours ago, Archaed said:

You have a game with over 130 skills,

Lets be honest 130 skills in name only, we dont have 130 useful engaging skills.

 

The game has been on a downward slide for a while, this is a crafting sandbox at its core, people want to build things, when was the last time we got an update to the core?

 

No we get bad communication, a competition that became a PR own goal and updates "fixing current systems" to make them worse than when we started, roadmaps that change with the wind.

 

Give the players more stuff to do, more items to craft, been 100's of fantastic ideas over the years and how many make it in game and not enough Devs is an excuse and a poor one, seen some fantastic developments in WU by single people working for fun, if new items can be added there, why cant we get more content here, but we get monthly skins.

 

I fell for the hype with steam, I was warned at the time it was a cash grab by my friends, I was like no there's a road map, combat updates, will be loads of new players and updates often, well I was wrong and they were right.

 

I remember the exciting times when we saw updates that improved the game and added content, now we get what?

 

 

 

 

[Blazecraze 445]

I'd like more brick types and variations to buildings. Less squares, more circles. 

[sweatygopher 88]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:04 AM, elentari said:

 

Agreed here. We work towards getting so many skills up to a certain level but after that point how often do we use them? After you get your nice set of tools to 80-90 ql, how often will you imp them again? 

 

We'd need some end content that requires us to use the entirety of Wurm's skills for certain purposes. Would be fun if we could invade Valrei or something, and have to deal with all the Valrei mobs and armies posted in the heavens. Something that's challenging, brutal, deadly and really feels like you're working as a team again for a common purpose. Just dreaming. 

most skills after 30 skill points are completely empty feeling.  Blacksmithy for example you can make everything by 50 skill.  Maybe not the "best".

 

This game really needs an asset dump.  More decorations, outfits, more animals, etc.  As much as we'd like to say "this game some people enjoy the hardcore mechanics!"  Some, meaning the 100 or so people still playing.  Take a look at the 10,000 that wishlisted this game and rage quit to never come back.  Why did they leave?

Ultimately we can have this discussion all day but we're already here, so our point doesn't matter.  Anyone who likes the game in it's existing form doesn't have any input to give as they enjoy the existing game.  They really need to reach out to the other 10,000+ that tried it and left.

 

Clearly all those users wanted to like it, they wanted to find a home here.

[Vorticella 958]

8 hours ago, Archaed said:

It doesn't matter how much combat is changed, reworked, updated, whatever. It's still a tiny part of a game of infinite possibility and doesn't deserve to be the crowning piece of what endgame is. 

 

 Totally agree with this.

 

I've never really thought of Wurm as having or needing an "endgame" because it's a pure sandbox experience, not a theme park. If you're a kid playing in an actual sandbox there is no goal or endgame. You have some toys and a box of sand, and you decide what you're going to do with it. However, these days we're used to everything being handed to us in a ready made package to consume, without really needing to activate much of our own brainpower. In Wurm we're given the raw materials to create our own experience, and this can lead to players feeling lost and bored once they get through the first stages of getting established in the game. Once you have a house and everything you need for basic survival, you have to figure out what to do next all by yourself, and that seems to be where people either drop off or stay forever.

 

If Wurm does need endgame content, it would make more sense to me if that content was focused on building, crafting, and exploration instead of just combat. For example, after reaching certain skill milestones you gain the ability to craft nicer versions of items (like the monthly skins?), or you could unlock the ability to move walls or change a wall type without having to rebuild it, or some other special abilities or perks. The achievement system is pretty neglected. It would be nice to see some titles and rewards for completing achievements. There is a lot of potential to improve and expand the journal too. Many existing activities like fishing are underused and could be much more engaging (add a fishing journal, trophies, etc). There was also an idea a while ago for some sort of mentoring ability where you can help boost the skills of newer players once you reached a certain skill level. There are tons of possibilities besides combat to keep people engaged and improve the experience for long term players.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Vorticella

[Stinboi 363]

10 hours ago, Archaed said:

Because combat already has an endgame, pvp. 

 

This is what makes the term "endgame" so god dang boring. You have a game with over 130 skills, complete freedom to shape the world, and people still view endgame as whacking things with metal sticks. 

 

It doesn't matter how much combat is changed, reworked, updated, whatever. It's still a tiny part of a game of infinite possibility and doesn't deserve to be the crowning piece of what endgame is. 

noone mention a combat rework, i was just courius, there is more contant that could be added to it tho, majority of the players doesnt look at pvp as end game.

[Archaed 2,280]

Plenty of those skills can be fleshed out and made more interactive, but the community has to work together to shape it. 

 

Bitching about a mechanic or update doesn't do jack, but spending time suggesting improvements that focus on the core issue can help. 

 

Personally, I think archaeology is a great example of what pve endgame can be, finding old deeds, building rare statues, and constantly rewarding you for doing it. 

 

Fishing needs rewards but could be the exact same thing, add trophies, decorations, hell, add rare items that can give permanent affinities through it and it becomes something worthwhile. 

 

Many skills are shallow, but many can have more depth and replay value if the community works together on ideas that aren't dumb. 

 

Or continues to post threads like these. 

 

You want plans for growth? Fertiliser, regular watering, and sunlight. 

[elentari 2,660]

4 hours ago, Archaed said:

Bitching about a mechanic or update doesn't do jack, but spending time suggesting improvements that focus on the core issue can help. 

 

The suggestions forums are spammed with countless threads about fleshing out skills : cartography, taxidermy, alchemy and more potions, etc. 

 

None of them have been implemented so far despite the fact some threads are 8 years old. There's 1000 good suggestions on the forums, well thought out that just need implementation and balancing. Not enough devs to actually tackle those. 

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

4 hours ago, Archaed said:

if the community works together on ideas that aren't dumb.

I think this is the crux of things; because the calls for change used to be on the suggestions forum.

 

The fact that people are creating threads like this are a symptom of a deeper issue; they've suggested everything they can, been politely told "this is not the way we want to go", so now they're waiting for things to get better because no idea seems good enough unless it somehow gets implemented in a way that makes the game worse.

 

[Disclaimer, I am not saying this is the case, merely that this is how people feel] - There is also a lingering feeling among some of the player base that some people's suggestions are listened to much more carefully, regardless of the merit of such suggestions.

 

The fact I had to issue a disclaimer also says a lot about the state of things too

[Archaed 2,280]

24 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

I think this is the crux of things; because the calls for change used to be on the suggestions forum.

 

The fact that people are creating threads like this are a symptom of a deeper issue; they've suggested everything they can, been politely told "this is not the way we want to go", so now they're waiting for things to get better because no idea seems good enough unless it somehow gets implemented in a way that makes the game worse.

 

[Disclaimer, I am not saying this is the case, merely that this is how people feel] - There is also a lingering feeling among some of the player base that some people's suggestions are listened to much more carefully, regardless of the merit of such suggestions.

 

The fact I had to issue a disclaimer also says a lot about the state of things too

There have been threads spelling the doom of wurm since 2008 on the old forums. 

 

And get the crap out of here about some peoples suggestions being listened to more carefully, what the ###### kind of conspiracy ###### are you trying to pull here? 

 

Spell it out or delete that "oh people are saying" ###### 

 

26 minutes ago, elentari said:

The suggestions forums are spammed with countless threads about fleshing out skills : cartography, taxidermy, alchemy and more potions, etc. 

 

None of them have been implemented so far despite the fact some threads are 8 years old. There's 1000 good suggestions on the forums, well thought out that just need implementation and balancing. Not enough devs to actually tackle those. 

There's also been 1000 bad suggestions, and 1000 suggestions implementing. 

 

With zero knowledge of the code, the time required, the balancing, QA, and workload, I think that saying anything about how they "just need implementing" is like telling an artist "oh just draw whatever, I told you the pose" 

 

FYI, the cooking update took nearly a year to code and test and launch, and someone posted on tich's original suggestion "all the work is here, devs just need to put it in!" 

[SmeJack 5,801]

Lets be honest here, it doesn't matter how helpful and united the players are when it comes to suggesting improvements to updates, its like talking to a brick wall. We are coming up on a year since the ah update turned breeding into a hot mess and people have asked more than nice enough. There has been a plethora of data gathering and suggestions and it's always just 'oh of course we are open to tweaks' when? The old system wasn't perfect but it was at least reliable to a decent degree if you planned your skill level accordingly, now it's nothing but another lottery and I am about to be done with it for good because it's hopeless.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

 

 

1 hour ago, Archaed said:

And get the crap out of here about some peoples suggestions being listened to more carefully, what the ###### kind of conspiracy ###### are you trying to pull here? 

 

Spell it out or delete that "oh people are saying" ######

Instead, how about you get your back down, stop trying to use outrage as a counter to anything you don't like to hear, and actually listen to what is being said.  I've offered a rather controversial fact, but this has come from years of hearing people say it.  It is, whether you like it or not, a factor in why no-one is bothering to make suggestions.

 

If you don't feel it is, I'd be happy to back down in view of superior data.

[Ekcin 2,407]

To get away from the above spat I want to come back to the assertion

21 hours ago, Archaed said:

Because combat already has an endgame, pvp.

Actually, no. Pvp is a different niche of the game, and is certainly not combat endgame. Rather, it deals with a lot of aspects, forming factions, be it template, be it PMK, creating bannersm wagons, fortifications, breeding mounts for the horse meat grinder, organizing raids and defence from, only a tiny part of actual combat, in which battke tactics, organization and cooperation is worth more than "endgame" abilities. To hone combat experience, friendly spars, available in PvE as well, are rather a thing.

 

21 hours ago, Archaed said:

This is what makes the term "endgame" so god dang boring. You have a game with over 130 skills, complete freedom to shape the world, and people still view endgame as whacking things with metal sticks. 

 

So far I agree. Combat "endgame" is no more "endgame" than raising a skill to 100 (which indeed is sort of endgame).

 

21 hours ago, Archaed said:

It doesn't matter how much combat is changed, reworked, updated, whatever. It's still a tiny part of a game of infinite possibility and doesn't deserve to be the crowning piece of what endgame is. 

 

In fact I fail to see at the moment, why the combat system would need another overhaul. It may not be perfect, but definitely works. But when out of the skill range where combat is needed for survival, it is starting to get boring, in PvE in particular. You soon reach the ceiling where nearly no creature is a threat (ok 5+ at a time may be one) much less a challenge. Some more high end PvE creatures other than uniques would be good.

 

Certainly this is no way to attract new, and prolly not too many old inactive players (but maybe ..). But it is frustrating, and could be considered.

[Radircs 76]

7 hours ago, Archaed said:

There's also been 1000 bad suggestions, and 1000 suggestions implementing. 

 

With zero knowledge of the code, the time required, the balancing, QA, and workload, I think that saying anything about how they "just need implementing" is like telling an artist "oh just draw whatever, I told you the pose" 

Yes of course there are a lot of bad suggestions. But the fact that there are currently nearly 40k more posts in the suggestion part of the forum then in the general discussion shows that the community see a lot of room to improve on certain aspects. 

 

I am also on the side that players are horrible Devs and often support really bad design since they often only looking for there own short term fun without looking for the implications there idea have for the whole population or there own long term satisfaction. 

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

In fact I fail to see at the moment, why the combat system would need another overhaul. 

Well what is the difference between a hole, a bruise and a slash wound? With the current system ther is practically no reason to use the lightes weapon of a category since your DPS will be slower and stamina usage basically do not matter 99% of the time. 

Just 2 quick things were the combat system get some depth that is currently Missing in some way but I agree combat is functional and there are more pressing issues and fields that need work to increase player rentation. 

[Ekcin 2,407]

26 minutes ago, Radircs said:

Yes of course there are a lot of bad suggestions. But the fact that there are currently nearly 40k more posts in the suggestion part of the forum then in the general discussion shows that the community see a lot of room to improve on certain aspects. 

 

Fully agree. I fear it could be a full time job to browse all suggestions, to eliminate the worthless, useless, and pointless ones, prolly 90+%, while deciding what to consider, to postpone, or to procrastinate 😎, and what to reconcile with the own plans already hard to realize.

 

Quote

[combat]

Well what is the difference between a hole, a bruise and a slash wound? With the current system ther is practically no reason to use the lightes weapon of a category since your DPS will be slower and stamina usage basically do not matter 99% of the time. 

Just 2 quick things were the combat system get some depth that is currently Missing in some way but I agree combat is functional and there are more pressing issues and fields that need work to increase player rentation. 

 

You are right of course, that there are things wanting in combat, and good points. Also, it is sad that e.g. short sword, small axe etc. are so useless. All open to improvements, but why the damn when I can whack every mob with my staff, haxe, sickle/shield? When only a few mobs like uniques and ogres (ok few more on Epic) are worth while to switch 1h to 2h? It is potential wasted. I agree, btw. to Archaed, that there are more pressing tasks for the devs than to improve that. But when it comes to PvE combat, I consider less boring strong mobs indeed higher on the list.

 

Personally, I like combat which is why I still attend rifts though I have more than enough mats, rift points etc. But certainly it is not the main field for better retention. If interesting changes were implemented it might motivate some of the old farts though.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Ekcin

[Archaed 2,280]

6 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

 

Instead, how about you get your back down, stop trying to use outrage as a counter to anything you don't like to hear, and actually listen to what is being said.  I've offered a rather controversial fact, but this has come from years of hearing people say it.  It is, whether you like it or not, a factor in why no-one is bothering to make suggestions.

 

If you don't feel it is, I'd be happy to back down in view of superior data.

Okay, so how about this. 

 

As someone who claims to work in data science, can you please back up this claim, or withdraw it as baseless accusations? 

 

I fail to see anyone getting suggestions through as an easy task, and this low tier conspiracy bait has no grounding, and serves no purpose other than to cast accusations vaguely. 

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

On 3/13/2022 at 1:23 AM, Archaed said:

withdraw it as baseless accusations?

Again, you've missed my point; I am not making accusations.  I am repeating what I have heard as the reason behind people not bothering to make suggestions.  Do I personally believe them?  I always follow the data, and the evidence makes no pertinent suggestion at this time.

 

I'm not going to discuss data science with you, because you've demonstrated beyond a doubt to me you don't understand the field.  Sorry to say it, but I don't think we're going to agree on that topic.

 

So lets stop derailing a rather good thread exploring ideas, and carry on trying to both help out a game we enjoy.

 

On 3/12/2022 at 11:09 PM, Ekcin said:

In fact I fail to see at the moment, why the combat system would need another overhaul. It may not be perfect, but definitely works. But when out of the skill range where combat is needed for survival, it is starting to get boring, in PvE in particular. You soon reach the ceiling where nearly no creature is a threat (ok 5+ at a time may be one) much less a challenge. Some more high end PvE creatures other than uniques would be good.

 

Certainly this is no way to attract new, and prolly not too many old inactive players (but maybe ..). But it is frustrating, and could be considered.

I agree here; some more dangerous creatures that spawn a fixed distance from spawn towns (and won't roam there) would be a welcome addition.  More creatures you need a group to slay that give lesser rewards (a material lying between drake/scale and conventional ones) might be an option to try (a variant of leather or cloth since metals are already easy to find rare variants of).

 

Though, I will say, as a free player I was really disappointed by how useless archery was without sinking a lot of time and effort into making arrows and skilling up.  A better curve for archery hit/damage, and some form of automatic arrow recovery/bulk improvement would really help make it viable on PvE.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Etherdrifter