A few questions about perimeter

[Bloodreina 301]

Hi! I do now that I don't own the perimeter, but I still have a few questions about it.

My plan is to fence off all my perimeter, except the last perimeter tile (so everyone who would come near the fence could examine the land and see it's on a deed's perimeter. I mention that at this time there are no buildings / fences / highways / guard towers / mines or whatsoever in that area. Also, my last perimeter tile is more than 20 tiles away of the closest neighbors.

Now my questions are:
1) Could it be seen as rude/wrong to do it? We talk about a rather large (although not huge) area?
2) Do I have any "legal" protection if someone decides too bash down my walls (as in being seen as griefing or since it's not deeded everything is fair game?
3) How easy it is for someone to bash down (let's say ql 50) stone walls?
4) In your experience how likely it is for someone to do it?
5) Is there anything I can do to improve my chances to protect that land?

[Tilda 651]

Moved to Community Assistance.

My thoughts on your questions:

1. Yes it could be but nothing technically rule breaking about it

2. No

3. Depends on the tools and skill of the person. Unless something has changed that I am unaware of fences and buildings on perimeter tend to take more damage more quickly over time than those on deed anyway.

4. No real experience, have only ever known of folks bashing fences and such when deeds are disbanded and abandoned really.

5. Other than deed it no.

[fencejumper 491]

Some clarifications from what was said in chat earlier.

 

32 minutes ago, Bloodreina said:

1) Could it be seen as rude/wrong to do it? We talk about a rather large (although not huge) area? It could be seen as rude, but there is nothing wrong with doing it game rule wise. You'll should contact your neighbors if you suspect they will object.
2) Do I have any "legal" protection if someone decides to bash down my walls (as in being seen as griefing or since it's not deeded everything is fair game?  Since it's in your perimeter and not on deed, there isn't any protection against others destroying the walls if they want. However, griefing is never clear cut.
3) How easy it is for someone to bash down (let's say ql 50) stone walls?  Not too difficult for someone that wants in.
4) In your experience how likely it is for someone to do it?  If people either think there is something to gain, or they are bored, they will bash the fences. Though many will just see ugly tall stone walls and keep going.
5) Is there anything I can do to improve my chances to protect that land?  Only sure way to protect area is to deed it. Perimeter will keep others from deeding nearby. Perimeter tiles are much cheaper than deed tiles, but offer little protection for items, but keep other deeds away.

 

[Ekcin 2,415]

The answers have been given as far as facts are concerned. Some additional remarks though.

ad 1: It would be good to be in contact with neighbours before fencing. There may be people used to forage, botanize, pick sprouts or harvest from trees and bushes in that area. If you are fine with, you may have a few gates permitting them to enter.

ad 2: There is no "legal" protection for fences in the wild, only for houses. But I, and most other players as I assume, would consider it an utterly rude and aggressive move to bash fences in the perimeter of an active player's deed.

ad 3: for an experienced player no fence is much of a challenge. It is a pain though, especially with large mauls, even more with makeshift stuff like troll clubs. It is of course ways easier with a catapult or battering ram. But I cannot imagine somebody dragging or creating such equipment in front of a players deed except in case of bitter territorial conflict.

ad 4; It depends. If someone holds grudges, it is not unlikely. For normal players, it would be out of the question in my opinion.

ad 5: As the others told before. Only real off deed protection would be houses.

[Thorinoakshield 603]

Two things you may actually consider doing:

1) Instead of building the fences at the outer border of your perimeter, build them one tile in.

That way, players entering the perimeter may notice that in their event list and realise those fences can be bashed, but better shouldn't.

 

2) Instead of using fences, use hedges instead.

 

Other as that hedges are available in two sizes, just like fences; it would provide a somewhat more natural look as an outer protection.

Another advantage of hedges over fences, is that you can prune hedges to its youngest stage and simply walk over and it will grow back to its full height over time; while a fence needs to be rebuild.

 

 

Thorin  

[Yaga 2,889]

2 hours ago, Thorinoakshield said:

players entering the perimeter may notice that in their event list

 

There is no event message when entering a perimeter. 

 

[Ekcin 2,415]

I would agree that hedges are much prettier than walls (especially simple stone walls), but also ways more vulnerable. They are great on deed (i have them there, too), but no means to block trespassing off deed. Pruning is nearly soundless, while even bashing the weakest fence (shaft or rope) will make a hell of noise over all of local.

[Muse 2,231]

You could try planting thorn bushes surrounded by thorn hedges.  Whilst these are simple to chop down with care, most people won't bother.  It certainly makes the land less desirable and may well put off intruders.  I have noticed that some old deeds, which were planted with thorns years ago by folks long gone, have never been re-deeded or reused.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

1) Could it be seen as rude/wrong to do it? We talk about a rather large (although not huge) area?

• Yes it could.  I would find it rude/presumptuous. (see also other points)

2) Do I have any "legal" protection if someone decides too bash down my walls (as in being seen as griefing or since it's not deeded everything is fair game?

• I am not a fan of "deed it or lose it" but the perimeter around your deed is not YOUR perimeter.  It's function is prevent contiguous deeds in order to keep a right-of-way open for everyone.  Fencing that in subverts that.  Undeeded land is shared land.  If you don't want to share it, then deed it.  It may depend on what GM on what day, and what dealings they have already had with you and the other party, but I don't think you would get much in the way of GM relief.

3) How easy it is for someone to bash down (let's say ql 50) stone walls?

• I have a QL 70-something large maul and medium-at-best skills and attributes.  I could knock holes in 50ql stone walls in a few bash actions

4) In your experience how likely it is for someone to do it?

• At least as likely as me finding it blocking my way.  I am not trying to be rude or confrontational, but if I am on public land and find part of it fenced off, unless I could see a plain and publicly beneficial reason then I would find it affronting.  I wouldn't destroy it just to make a point, but if it was blocking my easy access I would likely remedy that.

5) Is there anything I can do to improve my chances to protect that land?

• Deed it, basically.  The fact that players can "purchase" extra perimeter tiles is a problem that confuse this.

Edited February 27, 2022 by TheTrickster

[Ekcin 2,415]

35 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

3) How easy it is for someone to bash down (let's say ql 50) stone walls?

I have a QL 70-something large maul and medium-at-best skills and attributes.  I could knock holes in 50ql stone walls in a few bash actions

That is clueless bragging. I bashed a lot of walls for good reasons, and a maul is a bandaid where you cannot move rams and catas to, and a pain to operate against stone walls. A ql 50 stone wall will take less than 0.7ql dmg from a 70ql maul hit which takes 30s (fix time) every blow. After 20 hits (14 dmg and 10 minutes) your maul will be damaged more than the wall, repairing, depending on your skill, degrading it fast. I have 74 repairing, and still the maul bleeds ql. You will soon be under 65ql or worse. and you need 100 dmg before the owner gets aware and repairs, and will not love you for. Mind we speak about 4 tiles away from the deed border of an active deed.

 

Insofar the rest is questionable to say the least. If the perimeter hinders you, the deed does too. If some mayor decides to build a giant donut building around all the perimeter borders, you and your freedom of movement are done.

 

There is no "right" to trespass and bulldoze everything down in the way. There are reasonable interests to be balanced, there are players (human beings with feelings behind them) to be respected. Of course it is also not illegal to bash the fences a little squatter created around his or her wood shack to keep a few farm animals in. Even if that hinders your "freedom of movement" it would be rude to destroy them.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Ekcin
typo

[TheTrickster 2,284]

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

That is clueless bragging

Okay, if you say so. Well, actually - okay to the clueless part but no to the bragging.  I have nothing to brag about.  I was only going from memory, but you have vastly more experience in-game than I do.  Maybe I am remembering low stone walls.

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

If the perimeter hinders you, the deed does too

??  You can go PAST the deed in the perimeter.  It is a right-of-way :  that is actually the expressly stated function I have seen in these fora from GMs/developers (cant recall which at this point).

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

If some mayor decides to build a giant donut building around all the perimeter borders, you and your freedom of movement are done.

Probably. But that itself could cross the line into possible griefing.  The perimeter is by design intended to prevent this kind of blocking of passage.  (I am not sure if it is even technically possible - what skill level would you need?)

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

There is no "right" to trespass and bulldoze everything down in the way.

If it is in the perimeter, there is no trespass and I have every right to access.  

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

There are reasonable interests to be balanced, there are players (human beings with feelings behind them) to be respected.

Absolutely - which is why I would a) advise against fencing in public ground and b) wouldn't, as I said, destroy anything simply to make a point.  I would remedy the access-blockage.  (I have in the past done so on a long-fallen deed but I did put back a replacement fence to the best of my skill).

[Bloodreina 301]

2 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

 

??  You can go PAST the deed in the perimeter.  It is a right-of-way :  that is actually the expressly stated function I have seen in these fora from GMs/developers (cant recall which at this point).

 

 

As I said, at the moment there are more than 20 tiles distance between my last perimeter tile and the closest perimeter tile of another neighbor.

Further more, even someone would be to put a deed / expand their deed so our perimters would touch, I expressly said that I would leave the last tile of the perimeter free so people can pass, so it's not like blocking access, more like them make them take a little detour...

[Ekcin 2,415]

9 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

??  You can go PAST the deed in the perimeter.  It is a right-of-way :  that is actually the expressly stated function I have seen in these fora from GMs/developers (cant recall which at this point).

First, sorry when my wording was too harsh (the bragging bit), no offense intended. But indeed, bashing is not easy in Wurm, as I feel, for some reason. Sometimes it even is a pain.

 

There is no special right about perimeters, just the same as on free land, other that only the deed people can erect and repair structures. The right of passage only states that, no matter whether on deed, in perimeter, or in free land, the access to another deed must not be barred.

 

9 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

[creating buildings alongside perimeter borders ]

Probably. But that itself could cross the line into possible griefing.  The perimeter is by design intended to prevent this kind of blocking of passage.  (I am not sure if it is even technically possible - what skill level would you need?)

It is no more griefing than extending the deed, given that there is no passage to other areas blocked. Perimeters ensure that deeds cannot be directly adjacent to one another. That is all. The rule that deeds must not be cut off from accessibility may even constitute the need to grant passage through deeded areas (e.g. when perimeters on all sides are in cliffs etc.)..

 

9 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

If it is in the perimeter, there is no trespass and I have every right to access. 

This is the problem with clash of interests. It is also no forbidden trespassing to destroy the pens of a small squatter's shack in the open. It would be terribly rude though. Same for destroying things in perimeter of an active deed.

 

9 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Absolutely - which is why I would a) advise against fencing in public ground and b) wouldn't, as I said, destroy anything simply to make a point.  I would remedy the access-blockage.  (I have in the past done so on a long-fallen deed but I did put back a replacement fence to the best of my skill).

 

I have a few pens, and some area beyond fenced in my perimeter, also have some deeded land (and ofc adjacent perimeter) open to the public like most of my deed (not the buildings except the tower, and not the pens and backyard). I would frown upon players wreaking havoc there.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

I must admit, against my own advice I have put up fences (but not in a perimeter, just in the wild).  Generally this have ben 2x2 size, enough for a tent, cart and hitched animals to camp while offline.  I do tend even then to use gates rather than fences, and make sure they are on otherwise unused land (usually well away from any used land, or at least hidden from view so I don't spoil someone's outlook).

 

 

[Badvoc 204]

On 2/26/2022 at 4:13 PM, Ekcin said:

trespassing off deed

Can you trespass off deed?

 

To the op, dont see any reason why anyone would object to your plans, plenty room to go around, I think you should be fine unless you have been having bother with the locals.

 

I have seen more than one breeder use "off deed" to store animals, you can make things look quite pretty and 90% of people in the game will respect your work, there is always the chance someone wont.

 

Remember, if someone does decide to be a pain and bash a wall down, take it on the chin and rebuild, much easier to rebuild than to bash down. So much drama can be caused by off deed fences, seen my fair share over the years.