Bloodreina

It's about time

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Pretty much the same for me, i will keep doing whatever i am doing now. But there's certain hate for literally everything SFI from certain individuals and some story about some big and bad sfi boogyman is out there eating noobs, stealing all your coins and having thousands of items ready to destroy wurm with, have to be addressed now and then.

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 There are two different economic situation, I am not talking about the SFI and NFI two economic system.


The first one is the less players more players higher prices low demand high supplies situation, this is an economy between players and players. 

 

Spoiler
On 2/12/2022 at 1:17 AM, Tukodama said:

the economy, eventually a balance will be found where NFI prices drop and SFI prices rise, creating a stable market.

 

On 2/12/2022 at 11:58 PM, Sheffie said:

About the economy. There seems to be general agreement that the balance of supply and demand has pushed prices down in SFI and up in NFI.

 

18 hours ago, Stormblade said:

The economy. So yeah, saying it'll ruin the economy is a lame duck excuse for those wanting to hold onto making as much silver as they can for as long as they can and to heck with anyone else.

 

 

The other one is between (players and players) and (game overall income). Like how the trading interaction between players affect the income of game. This is the economy should be concerned.

 

Spoiler
On 2/11/2022 at 11:12 PM, Maiya said:

Since if player got silver they dont need to buy new silver in shop

 

On 2/12/2022 at 11:13 PM, Ekcin said:

after all, the company has to pay for the servers and teams.

 

 

So, after the merger(assume merge like the pristine, release, xanadu to the older SFI), SFI 90+ skills and tons of items flood into NFI.


What would happen to the income of game in a short term and long term after the merger? 


I think what the decision makers are concerning about is how the merger could affect the income of game. 


Why would the decision makers merge when they still can enjoy the silvers from NFI or u can say from both separated servers?

On 2/12/2022 at 11:58 PM, Sheffie said:

there are more players who spend their $$$ on silver and buy items with silver, than there are players who craft merchandise and sell it to pay for their premium.(Some players do both, and can be classed as net consumers or producers depending on whether or not they bring real money $$$ into the game.) And I am pretty sure that there are more players on NFI than SFI. 

 

The supporter of a merger should show the decision makers how the merger can benefit the decision makers.

 

If the regular merger cannot, then suggest a merger with conditions. Like this 

On 2/11/2022 at 8:45 PM, HawkHawk said:

I think the compramise I'd like to see is the economies being kept seperate but access between the islands being possible for the sake of exploration.

 

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i am of the opinion that i want to be able to bring my charactors to where i am set up and not have to divide my attention between clusters, NFI has been a real challenge for me and i find that SFI is more suited to my temperment. even if i have to leave all my stuff behind i would love to be able to just move my toons across or even just to pack up my boats and load my toons and make a one way trip. i think like in the real world a sudden influx of good s moving between the servers would balance itself out quickly supply and demand is a very good equalizer. i think the ones that oppose this are the ones that fear the worst things will happen, like their peace will be shattered or the economy will completely tank. but ultimately this is a decision that will be made by the company that owns the game so regardless of wether we want it or not the final call will made by them when they are ready

 

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3 hours ago, Coach said:

 

 There are two different economic situation, I am not talking about the SFI and NFI two economic system.
The first one is the less players more players higher prices low demand high supplies situation, this is an economy between players and players. 

We recently have less players on NFI, and it does not seem to become more at the moment, though the large decline appears to have ended, and population may be about to stabilize.

 

As to prices, it is indicative that NFI to SFI silver exchange now is mostly 1:1, even saw some  >1 NFI to 1 SFI already (maybe players returning to SFI). Initially after the launch 1 NFI traded for 1.25 to 1.5 SFI.

Some stuff like rares, and ships, still seem to go at higher prices, and of course, all unique related stuff.

 

Quote

The other one is between (players and players) and (game overall income). Like how the trading interaction between players affect the income of game. This is the economy should be concerned.

 

With "the income of the game" most prolly the real money earned by the company is meant. Ok, initially, all NFI players had to buy silver in the shop to do anything, pay upkeep, buy stuff from other players. With the economy starting, players got income from other players, ingame money circulating. With the (belated) start of coins from coffers players could earn a few coins outside the shop and the ingame market.

 

Yet now, a lot of silver is circulating in NFI ingame economy, not really less than in SFI. MRTG lists 848 mirons for cadence, 754 for harmony, and 271 for melody. Independence is 723, deliverance 387, exodus 263, celebration 284, pristine 304, release 272, Xanadu 987 mirons (all yearly averages). So money supply looks widely at par. The company cannot expect excessive silver purchases from the shop anymore, royalties flowing from upkeep and subs mainly.

 

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So, after the merger(assume merge like the pristine, release, xanadu to the older SFI), SFI 90+ skills and tons of items flood into NFI.

 

No. The most market oriented SFI players are already in NFI, often dropped or mothballed their SFI characters. Most of them acquired skill 90+ within the first 4 to 8 weeks after the launch. SFI market is mainly high end, sale of good and very good ql, and high and very high enchants.

 

SFI established traders and skill 100 crafters won't flood any market, SFI or NFI, with ql50 to 70 tools and equipment.  The price of those goods may indeed drop by one third or half at NFI, and much will be available via impalongs. Certainly NFI prices for unique stuff, drake and scale in particular, but also bloods and imbues, will collapse to levels somewhat above recent SFI prices, for scale and drake armour in particular.

 

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What would happen to the income of game in a short term and long term after the merger? 

 

Depends how the merge is marketed and managed. It could be a chance to tap into the pool of 20k+ players from the steam world who played Wurm for a while during 2020 and 2021, and motivate some to resub. Else not much will happen. Maybe some unhappy with the merge will leave, some unhappy with the separation may return. All in all, I don't expect anything dramatic.

 

Quote

I think what the decision makers are concerning about is how the merger could affect the income of game. 

Why would the decision makers merge when they still can enjoy the silvers from NFI or u can say from both separated servers?

As said, the separation seems to make a number of players unhappy, mainly on NFI, and not few of those seem to give up. For us on SFI it does not matter much. There are not the crowds of "steam kids" threatening to invade and dig up our perimeters 😎. And we don't plan to overwhelm NFI.

 

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The supporter of a merger should show the decision makers how the merger can benefit the decision makers.

Simple. Well marketed, Freedom unification may attract new players, and make existing players happy and resubbing, more than be unhappy about and quit. That is my expectation, it is up to the company to have a look into the data, and possibly do some market research.

 

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If the regular merger cannot, then suggest a merger with conditions. Like this

No, that is half assed rubbish, and may create an endless stream of bugs and exploits.

Edited by Ekcin
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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

The price of those goods may indeed drop by one third or half at NFI, and much will be available via impalongs. Certainly NFI prices for unique stuff, drake and scale in particular, but also bloods and imbues, will collapse to levels somewhat above recent SFI prices, for scale and drake armour in particular.

How can this benefit the income of game? are u saying because the price of unique stuff drops so NFI people are more willing to spend silvers from shop to buy the unique stuff after the merger? Not just unique stuff but also tons of rares, supremes and bulks.

 

The decision makers don't really care about the SFI items price rise or NFI items price drop, as long as there are people buy new silvers in shop.

 

The only one important question is, How does the economy between players affect the economy of the income of game after the merger?

 

2 hours ago, Ekcin said:

As said, the separation seems to make a number of players unhappy, mainly on NFI

Isn't there are NFI people saying they are happy with the separation because 

On 2/12/2022 at 2:04 AM, gnomegates said:

There are many people who do not want to play on SFI, it is one of the reasons we started over on NFI or for many new players they only know NFI and don't have an interest in SFI. If I wanted to play on SFI I would have gone back to SFI and continued there.

 

On 2/12/2022 at 9:42 PM, Homestead said:

After finally working some skills into the 90s and getting to some profitability.....

I cannot see why I would want to suddenly be relegated once again to 'newbie' status by importing people who have been skilling for years longer......

 

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

And we don't plan to overwhelm NFI.

Isn't the SFI people already overwhelm the economy of NFI as u have said 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

The most market oriented SFI players are already in NFI, often dropped or mothballed their SFI characters.

and drop a quite number of deeds in NFI. As far as i know, the unique slaying on NFI are mostly the old SFI player who decided to play on NFI.

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As to the unique etc sale it may or may not benefit to ingame silver sales in the shop. It definitely does not atm on NFI as there is practically no or ridiculously low unique stuff sale, ruthless pricing notwithstanding. Ten thousands of players ran away from NFI already, and dont buy neither subs nor silver.

 

The impact of a merge to overall economy will be limited. Moreover the impact of ingame economy to Wurm gameplay as a whole is limited. If someone laments that he fears the larger market on SFI relegating him to "newbie status" at skill 90 in some craft does he really believe that clinging to an ever shrinking customership in a stagnating three server cluster will help him? Others there are "ascending" to skill 90 too (or at least 70 which suffices for most stuff) and do not need neither his services nor even those of the long established crafters urgently.

 

Even if only stagnating NFI economy is doomed to become more and more SFI like in most aspects, only more barred, and thus with less opportunities, less events, less impalongs, less travel. A merge, well done, would open new chances and opportunities.

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Company income is derived from two sources:

  • players buying silver in the shop
  • players buying premium time in the shop

Those are the only products the company sells. There is no other income. Everything else is just numbers changing in server databases. Everything else is a means of creating demand for those two items.

 

 

The prices of goods on the market, then, can only ever affect the company income in an indirect fashion - by attracting players, or discouraging them from playing. The vast majority of the silver that a player uses to buy, say, an enchanted item or a spell cast, simply goes to another player. A trivial amount may be lost in merchant fees or mailing costs, but most of a player's silver is going to end up circulating through a number of different players' bank accounts before finally being disposed of as either upkeep, or in-game payments for premium. Those "silver sinks" must be approximately balanced by "silver sources" or the amount of silver in the economy will either rise or fall dramatically — something that we haven't seen.

 

So ultimately the company's income — the demand at the online shop — is determined by

  1. how many premium accounts there are
  2. the size/number of deeds

 

Now, I think that the players who have mothballed accounts on SFI while they play on NFI, or vice versa, aren't spending any money on deeds or premium on the cluster they're not playing on. It's possible that some of them are, sure. It's also possible that some are feeling resentful about having to pay for twice as many accounts, and that some of them have decided (and will decide) to quit until the situation resolves itself. 

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10 hours ago, Sheffie said:

Now, I think that the players who have mothballed accounts on SFI while they play on NFI, or vice versa, aren't spending any money on deeds or premium on the cluster they're not playing on. It's possible that some of them are, sure. It's also possible that some are feeling resentful about having to pay for twice as many accounts, and that some of them have decided (and will decide) to quit until the situation resolves itself. 

I got 2 deeds on SFI that I still pay upkeep for and I buy silver from shop to do that, while Im playing on NFI.  And yes I start to think if I shall keep doing it or if I shall stop, still thinking about it. 

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So I would like to put my stake in this, I have played wurm from the start give or take a few months and I have always multi accounted I currently have 11 premium accounts on NFI 4 deeds large and one account has over 10 years premium, I do put a lot of money on this game and I used to before on SFI but when NFI came out I made new accounts like I said but the 6 accounts on SFI and the 1 deed on exodus I abandoned, I sold my deed and got a 5x5 to house the accounts and some items for just incase they do open the boarders. 

 

I really want to bring them over to NFI for one they are lonely and for 2 they are decently skilled, but my NFI accounts are equally skilled. I have no interest in having deeds in SFI anymore and just want to be where I have settled now but to shed some light on the way I would do it if they did open I would bring my toons over and put premium on them and use them just the same as I do with my NFI accounts. 

 

I know I am over kill but I like to have the accounts enough to be able to sermon with myself and make boring tasks like making mortar a easy task. 

 

If people have problems with opening the boarders can't we just make a poll and have a few options to decide from as one thing that would cause no damage but would gain income in a respect is the have option to migrate a account over but not allow tools or items to come across with it and make it a one way thing. 

 

There is multiple ways of making this work for everyone and on NFI I don't think that bring people over will over skill people on here as there is a lot of accounts with very high skills already. 

 

Few ideas 

 

One way pass no items follow 

 

A transfer coin from a trader that you buy 

 

Open the boarders and allow it to just be open 

 

One way travel via boat

 

At the end of the day people all have a different idea of how they want to play the game and people like to play SFI or NFI and do not want change but there are the in between ers that just want there accounts to go to the other server. 

 

Just feel like there would be a way if everyone got there head together to do this that wouldn't impact anything. 

 

Loads of ways but I think it would be a great idea to do something or even to address the problem and give us a bit of hope. 

 

My fight isn't to travel around the old clusters but to just have my lonely sad accounts back home with me safe .... 

 

Edited by wsrich

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10 hours ago, wsrich said:

My fight isn't to travel around the old clusters but to just have my lonely sad accounts back home with me safe .... 

 

I feel the same. My NFI toon(s)/deed are currently sleeping and I am not planning on paying the upkeep in 3 months when it expires. My main there is decently skilled and I've love to bring him to SFI, so I'd be happy with any of your proposed options because like you I have no desire to "take over" the other cluster, just regroup the team.

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I am against one way solutions because they do not solve anything but the desire of a few players/characters just to switch the cluster. While that desire is of course legitimate, it does not solve the problem, may even cause troubles, eg allowing inter cluster silver transfers while the economies stay seperate. E.g. a transit toon could carry some gold on transfer in any direction, same with items unless restricted. And such restrictions had to be programmed, bug and exploit proof (erm). I consider that too much effort for too few achievement.

 

As the two clusters are becoming more and more alike in skill levels as well as in market conditions (except unique stuff), and NFI is in stagnation or decline, it is not to see why a considerable part of Wurm is barred for either side of players, NFI players being disadvantaged in opportunities for slayings, impalongs, rifts etc., and excluded from the Epic cluster. Most are not NFI/SFI jingoists but just want to play Wurm Online, not a specific Freedom cluster.

 

I fail to see that there is a way around opening. As repeatedly stated, this should be done with some hype and some noise, hoping to get some additional new or returnee players.

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I would called the one way solution a transfer instead of a merger. The reason why there should be a merger because people can interact with each other in a online game, join events etc. A transfer simply separate players again after a choice of cluster. 

 

25 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

And such restrictions had to be programmed, bug and exploit proof (erm). I consider that too much effort for too few achievement.

If this is a problem. How about just allow skills swap between NFI and SFI but not items(as u said unique stuff is hard to be alike). Just like the defiance and the NFI skill transfer mechanic. Try to make the programming as simple as possible then. 

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Or another way make a new server ( Land ) in the middle of both that either side may travel to and be able to move across to the other side, this will give them clout to advertise a whole new place to live and also advertise that its going to be the biggest merge that wurm has seen. 

The land could be a half way point between both sides and house markets and other things like this, maybe even wurm can incorporate something like a AI market that sells things on behalf of wurm ( Another  Silver sink ) but supplies items and bulks at a cost, this will balance the market on both sides as people will need to undercut the wurm market and that will set the max value of items. - sounds bad but if you actually think about it could balance the game a lot and standardise things. 

Rares / Special items would not be sold but the bulk items would be. would bring both SFI & NFI to the same level and prepare us to open the boarders - maybe just open the market land to the players but they cant cross into NFI if they are SFI and vies vera for a few months to get the market balanced out. 

A lot of people will hate this comment but i think it could work not only for the players but also wurm itself. and it adds a control that can make sure things are done fair across all servers when the boarders open. 
 

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I am not sure how a one-way transfer would work without manual oversight by GMs. That definitely pushes the "bang for buck" ratio in the wrong direction.

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On 2/11/2022 at 4:05 PM, Maiya said:

 

Pristine (Founded Dec 12th 2012) wasn't connected to freedom cluster 1 for one and a half years
Release (Founded Dec 18th 2012) wasn't connected to freedom cluster 1 for one and a half years
Xanadu (Founded June 3rd 2014) was isolated from the other servers for a few weeks

 

Harmony (Founded July 24th 2020) server are currently cut off from all other servers 
Melody (Founded July 26th 2020) server are currently cut off from all other servers 
Cadence (Founded August 21st 2020) server are currently cut off from all other servers 
Defiance (Founded July 24th 2020) server are currently cut off from all other servers 


There is no reson that Northern Freedom Isles is going to be cut of from all other servers longer then any of the other servers been. 

So now is the right time to connect Northern Freedom Isles with rest of all servers  

And with connect with rest of all servers its not a workaround, its connect them all like all other servers been connected before !!!

 

 

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At the end of the day people want there toons back - people wanna interact with SFI/NFI and people wanna be whole ! some people will not like it but other will. so please do a poll ! for the people who do not want to and for the people that do lets make a poll.. the only way to settle this really let the poll run for 1 month to gain most people have it as a in game pop up and explain to people what it will do if they select open boarders or not. 

People who do not understand can understand with a little knowledge - by selecting open boarders NFI/SFI will be able to travel between each other. 

Or just open the half way server and include Wurm's first merchants that can sell in bulk (Merchant Market) that will act as a silver sink + balance the games market out so boarders can open ! 

Merchant Markets could house a wagoner of some sort that would come out of a door at the back and drop the goods in crates on the tile next to the player  so he/she can load them up and be on there way.. 

Lets see what a poll says 

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A merge rightly or wrongly will imo, reduce prem accounts as people mothball accounts not needed, and play with just your "main set of characters".

 

Its quite the clever model when you think of it, people get attached with deeds and toons, but also wanted to be apart of the new cluster hype and got attached there, now you have double upkeep, but if you merge, yes you will keep the deeds, but do you really need 2 sets of characters, or do you just cherry pick the best and let the rest mothball.

 

This is the reason why it wont merge anytime soon imo, release and pristine was different, as you could drain traders and didn't need to buy silver from the shop, unlike the NFI cluster release.

 

Game has a lot of problems, from the terrible competition that was held, not very good PR that and a lack of openness about where wurm goes next, seems the roadmap got ditched, solve the main issues and then maybe look into a merge, but until then, a merge will cost the company money, not make it any.

 

To be honest I am finding Unlimited to be better value and more fun, so as much as i like wurm online, really dont see any reason to return until we see some progress moving forward.

 

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1 hour ago, Badvoc said:

A merge rightly or wrongly will imo, reduce prem accounts as people mothball accounts not needed, and play with just your "main set of characters".

 

Its quite the clever model when you think of it, people get attached with deeds and toons, but also wanted to be apart of the new cluster hype and got attached there, now you have double upkeep, but if you merge, yes you will keep the deeds, but do you really need 2 sets of characters, or do you just cherry pick the best and let the rest mothball.

Or, like myself, because I've decided I am no longer going to pay or skill up a duplicate toon/deed they lose the money anyway. More actually because I do prem multiple toons on my "main set of characters" and the lonely NFI ones are going to be mothballed indefinitely. I do see that some folks may decide to pay for duplicate accounts/deeds but I wonder which group is larger and has the most impact on company finances?

Edited by SirMuttley

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Certainly there are some who are keeping up premium and large deeds on both clusters. But many have dropped premium at one cluster (can be revived anytime), and reduced deeds to minimum, maybe with a chain of buildings along the old deed areas, or gave up or sold them. And that will go on the longer the split lasts.

 

It may also happen that some, disgruntled by a merge, will quit/ragequit. But well done, a merge may also attract new players, and keep existing players, stopping NFI decline.

 

I could also imagine the creation of a continent between the clusters, maybe not deedable, with dangerous creatures, and accessible from the south for SFI, and north from NFI, the eastern and western capes e.g. at P31 and F1 and  not navigable (triggering the message like when attempting to sail server corners, or approach server borders without course plot). Both sides would have to build roads, tunnels, and canals to meet one another.

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Posted (edited)

As a NFI player this is a terrible idea, I'd hate a merge. Majority of my friends don't want to see a merge either. Keep them seperate. The 3 PVE servers we have on NFI are popular you add on SFI and everyone will spread out and we'll have 3 more dead servers. The economy will be ruined, market flooded. People with items on SFI that are not available on NFI (like PMK wagons/items) just want this merge so they can get rich. Then you have the fact that the merge also affects Defiance/Chaos. Nobody here is considering what this will do to the balance on the PVP servers. NFI is great because everyone's characters are their own since it was made after RMT. It's great because there isn't a flood of broken legacy items like Bag of Keeping or Summer Hats. New players have a chance of making money for their premium because there isn't players out there who have giant supplies of everything probably looted from fallen deeds ten years ago. I cannot see how this merge would attract any new players... only lose a lot.

Edited by raxias
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Posted (edited)

If I may give my opinion on this matter.

 

I would love to se a merge happen.

 

I have read most of the comments here and one thing stands out, a large amount of the player base is worried about in-game economy, and this is sad to me because not all players play wurm to be the best or have the best things or have the shiniest or largest deeds. I know many players who play wurm solely because it's a great game that offers amazing terraforming, building, exploration and peer to peer interaction, and from reading the comments above something that stands out is that the players that are only focused on having lots and lots of money hold no regard for the other players, they think only of themselves and every one else be damned. 

 

As a player who support the game by always paying my premium via the shop I couldn't care less about the economy in-game sure having fancy stuff is nice but if I can't afford to let someone else do it I do it myself, it might take me a bit longer but I get there in the end, patience won't kill me. These players who have 30+ all prem accounts with massive deeds with 10 years of upkeep dominating the markets if you think about it they don't support the game, they grind their fingers to the bone to not have to pay for prem time and silver and to not support the game, and I think that's what they fear.

 

If it's in-game economy that's delaying a joint freedom then it's simple, all you need is a group of people who are able and willing to crash the market, and that's not even hard to do, all you need is to undercut every item advertised on the forums and trade chat.

Eventually the high prices come down, you undercut some more until you can match the prices of SFI and your economy problem is sorted out.

 

At the end of the day, the only thing you can lose in wurm is time. Since RMT is a thing of the past you don't stand to lose real money anymore, and speaking of time, I find it funny how NFI players who started on NFI and never played on SFI want to have an equal say in the matter as I feel there needs to at least be some form of return on investment for us players who did lay years into our SFI characters, and don't continue complaining about new players vs old players and how the old players have better/nicer things... Those players put in the time, did the grind and earned every bit of it. Respect your wurm elders please!

 

That's just my 50c 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Burdok
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+1 to a merge.  It is definitely time. I would alternatively settle for an option to transfer my character from SFI to NFI with the equipment he has equipped.  As someone stated, it’s not like the folks who started on SFI haven’t worked hard for it - I spent 7 years on that character.  I would even pay for the privilege.  
 

I mostly support a full merger because of the exploration and bonding of the communities.  To me that would be ideal. Will there be some negative impact? Of course there will be and there will be some unhappy people, but I suspect that as some have indicated it’s mostly folks who play the marketplace game.  I’m not going to say that I can’t appreciate their concerns, because I do and that’s only fair. However I think the majority would favor a merger or at least be able to live with it because of their love for the game. It’s occurred on several occasions before and it could work here too.

 

But let’s be clear, I chose to take the dive and jump in to the southern freedom isles cluster. No one made me do it. I did it because it’s just exciting exploring new lands and knowing that there are going to be hundreds of people in the community. However as I feared might happen, i’ve just become tired of choosing which characters to focus on. It makes me sad to log into Independence and genuinely love the server and those toons here, but would love to have more population.  At this point population is the only reason I play on the southern isles. It’s not about money it’s about the community. I don’t want to have to choose which character to focus my time on. We’ve all made huge investments here and I respect that, so why not put in a solution that works for most people?  You’re never gonna make everyone happy.  Put up a poll and let’s vote on it and maybe give folks a couple different options. I’m all for supporting the developers and the continuation of the game from a financial perspective. So if we need to put something in that requires an investment financially in order to get the option to move characters over, sign me up. At least give us the option.  There are plenty of high skilled characters on the northern islands at this point.

 

One thing is for sure, I can’t continue to bounce back-and-forth between the two clusters. I simply don’t have the time/interest to maintain both.  So I’m gonna have to make a choice unless an option come soon. 

 

 

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On 2/11/2022 at 10:52 AM, Baeowulf said:

It's not time. I don't feel it will ever be time, in the near future at least. The majority of NFI agrees as well, and I feel like our voices are the ones that matter, not anyone on SFI.

 

If you really wanted to play with friends, just do what we all had to do: Create a new account

 

 

EDIT: This was an arrogant thing to say, and I apologize. Everyone does have an equal voice, that's only fair. We all have some very strong opinions on this (including me!) :) I was too hasty and didn't formulate something more eloquent to say, I'm afraid.

-1 unless kos on highway is allowed

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Still opposed to merging the two clusters. There just seems to be a different mindset on NFI, more entitled, more ruthless, less likely to respect other players, etc. Might be the rapid influx of the steam types that warped their perception of how the game is played, but judging from what I've read on the forums that's my take. I don't care about the economy of it, as I'm not a major player in the economy, I'm more concerned with the attitude. So, yeah, keep them over there on that side of the fence please.

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