Caffeine Rework

[Rykersreign 3]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:09 AM, Beastwolf said:

please don’t remove meditation or lockpicking for players with much less play time it makes those skills even harder to acquire. Why take that away. Just adjust.

Agreed!! Work a 10 hour day, get home eat shower and play around with your children for an hour and maybe get to play wurm for an hour. It makes it rough to get any type of meditation in at all.

[Vorticella 958]

38 minutes ago, Eleraan said:

Maybe for new players they get a jar of it as starter with an explanation. As with most wurm features, ignorance is keeping it out of the hands of whom the devs seem to want to use it.

 

Caffeine is intended for people with less time to play, not new players. Sure, some new players have little time to play, but there is really no need for caffeine in the early stages of the game. New players don't start with any sleep bonus, and it can take a while before they start getting any, let alone reach the point where they would want to use it up faster. Skills also go up pretty fast at lower levels, and there is more than enough to learn at that point without throwing advanced bonuses like this at them.

[Vorticella 958]

On 1/25/2022 at 3:31 PM, Keenan said:

Disabled caffeine extra skill gain on meditation, lockpicking, and shield bashing

 

The issue was that people were switching sleep bonus on at the last second, so they were getting the huge skill ticks but without the extra sleep bonus cost, or was there more to it? Why not have it so sleep bonus needs to be active for the full timer in order for the bonus to work on any actions?

Edited January 27, 2022 by Vorticella

[fencejumper 491]

20 hours ago, Stinboi said:

so how do i get access to the test server? all the information and links i can find to it seems to be outdated

 

This forum thread has information, I've updated the wiki page with think link instead of the old one. Thank you for mentioning it.

[ChampagneDragon 971]

6 hours ago, Archaed said:

Ultimately, everything I've read here, including dev responses boils down to no one understanding how the target demographic plays. 

 

Caffeine is aimed at players who play max one hour a day, but while playing play so efficiently that they will be able to hit these targets. 

 

This again brings into question how much work has been done identifying the "casual playerbase" and their playstyles, as I feel this misses every mark it tries to hit beyond a "neat" system.

It alienates players who have time on their hands as it confers little to no bonus unless they're logged off, meaning your more established players feel they have to actually log off to make grinding efficient, and it is so limited that even casual players will fall behind. 

 

I don't grind often, but I'm logged in a lot, I do basic chores around the deed, I chat in GL, I spend the majority of my time AFK. Coffee means I can make the time I grind more effective and actually advance when I have the headspace to grind (change headspace to time, etc for anything else). 

 

With this system, I'm encouraged to be logged off when I cannot play, as otherwise when I do have the time to grind, I won't be able to, meaning the more idle casual players will infact be benefitting from being offline, meaning the world is smaller, and your active users drops. 

 

My solution to this is similar to how fatigue works. Have restlessness decay in increments logged on or not. Add a bonus for being logged off in a bed if you must, but if I am actively punished by continuing to play after hitting the limit, I'm going to be logging in less. 

 

And if the real goal is helping casuals gain skill, for the love of Fo, have it work on meditation, if they have limited playtime they need the help. 

THIS~~

 

I could be considered a "hardcore" player. I'm often logged in for 12+ hours a day. Despite using caffeine on a priest and myself, I have gone through 1.5 barrels of coffee since it's inception, and that includes the daily sip on both for the 10 minute sb bump. I grind, but not hard. Right now I'm pushing farming to 100 (99.64 atm) and am not using caffeine for it. I used caffeine for my priest to push from 98.4- to 99 channeling, doing a grind every 3-4 days and for myself, when I happen to get a wagon full of felled trees to chop (maybe every 4-5 days for an hourish). BUT I like knowing it's there.

 

I log in and go afk to do this or that. I cook dinner, eat, go pick up groceries, send out RL orders, do stuff around the house, etc all while logged in. The idea of having to keep restlessness full in case the mood strikes to actually grind is disheartening. It means I will not log in until I have my RL work done. It means when I am taking an extended afk to cook dinner and eat I will log off. It means if I have to make a quick trip to the grocery store I will log off. And we all know once we log off there is a good chance we will log off and decide to do something else instead of logging back into game, especially if it comes down to not having full restlessness.

[Tor 523]

1 hour ago, Vorticella said:

 

The issue was that people were switching sleep bonus on at the last second, so they were getting the huge skill ticks but without the extra sleep bonus cost, or was there more to it? Why not have it so sleep bonus needs to be active for the full timer in order for the bonus to work on any actions?

 

You can still switch the sleep bonus in last second and get the double, but the coffeine gain won't work like other skills. I suggested the same somewhere else but they are ignoring it, this thread is probably for spell check release notes and excuses they care for community feedback

[Lethyria 161]

7 hours ago, Archaed said:

Caffeine has the effect of doubling gains. 

 

this means that if you grind for an hour on caffiene, you have the skillgain result and sleep bonus consumption of grinding two hours on SB. By this nerf, grinding an hour on caffeine gives the skillgain result of grinding one hour on SB, and one hour not on SB, and also the consumption of two hours sb. 

Yes that's what the table says, its changing caffeine from providing extra skillgain while burning your SB faster to just enabling you to burn your SB faster. If the goal is to provide additional skillgain from the first (restlessness/2) hours of SB then the nerf is a bad thing.

 

 

[Borstaskor 503]

So if my understanding is correct, it's less efficient to use caffeine compared to using SB without caffeine (due to fats not affecting the drain caused by caffeine*). So anyone who has enough time to grind their SB normally, without caffeine, will not be the target audience for the caffeine mechanic.

And then once we round up all of those people, we gotta weed everyone who's casual enough to not want to learn an additional (possibly annoying) mechanic. And then we also weed out the people who can't afford to buy caffeine and can't bother grind their bevs skill high enough to make using caffeine comfortable.

 

I sure hope there's a few people out there who will use the caffeine mechanic.

 

 

 

* with 100 fats (not hard to get), SB drain is 40mins per 1h of SB usage. With caffeine ignoring fats, that'll be a 50% more sleep bonus drain using fatigue. That's what I mean by less efficient.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Borstaskor
To clarify what I mean

[Stinboi 363]

32 minutes ago, Borstaskor said:

So if my understanding is correct, it's less efficient to use caffeine compared to using SB without caffeine (due to fats not affecting the drain caused by caffeine*). So anyone who has enough time to grind their SB normally, without caffeine, will not be the target audience for the caffeine mechanic.

And then once we round up all of those people, we gotta weed everyone who's casual enough to not want to learn an additional (possibly annoying) mechanic. And then we also weed out the people who can't afford to buy caffeine and can't bother grind their bevs skill high enough to make using caffeine comfortable.

 

I sure hope there's a few people out there who will use the caffeine mechanic.

 

 

 

* with 100 fats (not hard to get), SB drain is 40mins per 1h of SB usage. With caffeine ignoring fats, that'll be a 50% more sleep bonus drain using fatigue. That's what I mean by less efficient.

it is, dont worry about that

[McGarnicle 1,463]

1 hour ago, Borstaskor said:

 

* with 100 fats (not hard to get), SB drain is 40mins per 1h of SB usage. With caffeine ignoring fats, that'll be a 50% more sleep bonus drain using fatigue. That's what I mean by less efficient.

Just to further clarify … does this mean that while using 100 power caffeine + sb with full fats for 1h, it will drain 1h 40mins of sb?

[McGarnicle 1,463]

Based on some of the feedback here, might I suggest to make it so restlessness decays while sb is off 1h per 24h real time regardless of whether or not a player is logged out of the game.

[Lethyria 161]

I'd also be interested to hear a clarification on fats either way it sounds like you'd have to be rolling in powder to use powder and caffeine in the same week.

 

Assuming you sleep enough to get 5 hours sb/restlessness a week.

 

If its not used at all so 200% SB drain caffeine is only worth using if you grind for less than 5 hours a week.
If its used on the base drain but not the additional so 166% drain its only worth using if you grind less than 6 hours a week.

 

Even if you do missions to get enough sleep bonus or spend quite a bit on sleep powder to fully use your caffeination its still not worth using if you grind for more than 10 hours (200% drain) or 12.5 hours (166% drain).

 

I'd agree that it'd seem bad to have a system that everyone would want to use should not benefit more sociable players, and I have no feeling for how many hours "non-grinders" would do per week.

 

Having thought about it now and given  how wasteful caffeine is I'd only use it on alts I think, but I grind a bit.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Lethyria
My position

[Madnath 3,113]

On 1/26/2022 at 4:36 AM, bawat said:

I personally don't feel like caffeine is the fix we're looking for to how these skills currently work, and that something larger needs to be done with them. We have had several internal discussions on this, but it isn't something we can look into with this update.
Also, ideally we don't want caffeine to be absolutely needed when travelling, or something players feel burdened to carry around with them. For these reasons observed, we have decided it would be better to leave meditation, lockpicking and shield bashing skillgain as it has previously been.

 

I'm going to join the others who are saying that, at the very least for shield bashing, this is silly.

Meditation can be done 5 times 30 minutes apart, and then 3 hours apart after. This makes switching on SB at the last second VIABLE.

Shield bashing doesn't get this luxury, and skilling it has already been made difficult and frustrating due to mechanics like the curve meaning you have to constantly monitor your shield because it's acting weird in a way not easily presented.

 

We've reached a point now where yourselves on the dev team can see and admit there's an issue. However you want to take the system that's being "fixed" to take away our shield bashing gains out of it. The issue, scenario and end result isn't the same in any regard and throwing it in there seems more like padding or fluff, or clearly not throught out well at all. If the plan is to take this away, please get an actual plan for shields in place and worked towards before you make it even worse to grind up.

 

As a matter of fact I want to pick apart this whole "caffeine needed when travelling" weirdness.

Meditation? Done on deed mostly, unless you're going for question, then you wouldn't even be using SB anyway.

Lockpicking? Can be done literally anywhere, people just slap locks on stuff like picnic baskets lmao.

Shield bashing? If you're seriously, actively grinding this, 99% chance you're pen training because that's the only tolerable way to do it and as it stands the system totally craps out once you hit 50 anyway. And yes, that's total and utter crap out even with caffeine. Caffeine just helps you reach that point of crap a bit faster.

[MordosKull 822]

8 hours ago, Rykersreign said:

Agreed!! Work a 10 hour day, get home eat shower and play around with your children for an hour and maybe get to play wurm for an hour. It makes it rough to get any type of meditation in at all.

 

I agree on one hand, but on another, there's WU for faster skillgain. I also work full time and have lots going on but don't expect the game speed to cater to my individual needs. This whole coffee topic, reading the pages on this, and its stated goals has my head spinning at this point.

 

Edit: I'll also add that whether it's a busy week irl and I just get in 3 hrs of game play for the week, or I have some extra time and play for 20+ hrs that week, caffeine works the same and has never come with many limitations except for when I play little and can't drop hydration enough to get a good caffeine power going.

Edited January 28, 2022 by MordosKull

[joedobo 1,187]

15 hours ago, Lethyria said:

As you can see currently caffeine gives more sleep bonus per hour than just using sleep bonus.

Yes, that is correct. What I should have said before is your being misleading. It has to give more sleep bonus in order for 1 hour of caffeinated SB to provide the same overall benefit as 2 sleep bonus hours of non-caffeinated. We should be looking at total skill gain per sleep bonus drained.

 

The current proposed system creates a sleep bonus usage inefficiency. It will be smarter to not use caffeine in all but one strange case. This case is when a player plays so little that they would waste it anyway because of the max sleep bonus cap. Almost all players will either feel guilty about the inefficiency or will be indoctrinated into the mindset. It is mind boggling that Wurm has spent so much time on this so that maybe 5% of players who play an hour or two a week can feel good about using caffeine.

 

|Scenario                                                                       |hours|SB drain|SG, total|SG, standard|SG, SB|SG, SB : SB drain|SG, total : hrs|SG, total : SB drain|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----|--------|---------|------------|------|-----------------|---------------|--------------------|
|SB usage (not changing)                                                        |2    |2       |4        |2           |2     |1                |2              |2                   |
|    Hours 2 and sleep bonus drain 2 hours.                                     |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from total -- is 2 times 2 hours spent equaling 4 hours.                |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from standard -- is hours of 2.                                         |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from SB -- is SG from total of 4 minus SG from standard of 2 equaling 2.|     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from SB : SB drain ratio -- SG, SB 2 / SB drain 2 equaling 1            |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from total : hours ratio -- 4 / 2 = 2                                   |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG, total : SB drain ratio -- 4 / 2 = 2                                    |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|                                                                               |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|caffeinated SB usage, current                                                  |1    |2       |4        |1           |3     |1.5              |4              |2                   |
|    Hours 1 and sleep bonus drain 2 hours.                                     |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from total -- is 2 times 1 hours spent equaling 4 hours.                |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from standard -- is hours of 1.                                         |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from SB -- is SG from total of 4 minus SG from standard of 1 equaling 3.|     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from SB : SB drain ratio -- SG, SB 3 / SB drain 2 equaling 1.5          |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from total : hours ratio -- 4 / 1 = 4                                   |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG, total : SB drain ratio -- 4 / 2 = 2                                    |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|                                                                               |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|caffeinated usage, proposed                                                    |1    |2       |3        |1           |2     |1                |3              |1.5                 |
|    Hours 1 and sleep bonus drain 2 hours.                                     |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from total -- is 2 times 1 hours spent equaling 3 hours.                |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from standard -- is hours of 1.                                         |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from SB -- is SG from total of 3 minus SG from standard of 1 equaling 2.|     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from SB : SB drain ratio -- SG, SB 2 / SB drain 2 equaling 1            |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG from total : hours ratio -- 3 / 1 = 3                                   |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|    SG, total : SB drain ratio -- 3 / 2 = 1.5                                  |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|                                                                               |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|standard                                                                       |4    |0       |4        |4           |0     |None             |1              |None                |
|                                                                               |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|SG = Skill Gain, SB = Sleep Bonus                                              |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |
|*  standard usage and SB usage are the same for current and proposed.          |     |        |         |            |      |                 |               |                    |

chart formatting tool https://www.convertcsv.com/csv-to-markdown.htm

[Archaed 2,280]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind sleep bonus inefficiency in like, the current system, it's a payoff compared to not using it. 

 

The problem is when it gets combined with the limitations of the new system

[joedobo 1,187]

A sleep bonus usage inefficiency reduces how many players can benefit from the system.  If a game has an opportunity to benefit all players equally, it should do it. I won't use caffeine and I know many others won't either if this new efficiency nerf goes into effect.

 

Having caffeine and fats both make it so there is no sleep bonus usage inefficiency will benefit every player equally. The restless system will limit how much caffeine players can use and affect nothing else. This is the best-case scenario.

[Archaed 2,280]

8 minutes ago, joedobo said:

A sleep bonus usage inefficiency reduces how many players can benefit from the system.  If a game has an opportunity to benefit all players equally, it should do it. I won't use caffeine and I know many others won't either if this new efficiency nerf goes into effect.

 

Having caffeine and fats both make it so there is no sleep bonus usage inefficiency will benefit every player equally. The restless system will limit how much caffeine players can use and affect nothing else. This is the best-case scenario.

It's a balance of diminishing returns, if you can spend 2x the time grinding, you get more efficient use, if you can't, then you can balance it with SB inefficiency 

 

min maxers can focus on grinding 2x as long for better sb consumption, more casual players can grind faster at the cost of more SB 

[Sn00 1,005]

7 hours ago, Archaed said:

It's a balance of diminishing returns, if you can spend 2x the time grinding, you get more efficient use, if you can't, then you can balance it with SB inefficiency 

 

min maxers can focus on grinding 2x as long for better sb consumption, more casual players can grind faster at the cost of more SB 

 

Doesn't matter. It's too punishing compared to the current one, it's also plain boring.

Just have it stop at the cap and regain after 10 hours or and not depend on your sleep.

[Thalorane 66]

Leave caffeine as it is now, with these changes:

 

1. Link fatigue to caffeine.  When you have a caffeine level, your fatigue decreases at the increased rates already in place even if you perform no actions. If you have 100 caffeine level and perform no actions for one hour, your fatigue still decreases by four hours.  When you have no fatigue, you receive no skill gain bonus from caffeine.

 

2. Remove the link to thirst so drinking caffeinated beverages does not affect the thirst bar and the ability to drink caffeinated beverages is not affected by thirst level.

 

3. Change the amount of caffeine needed so a 100g sip provides 10 caffeine power.

 

4. Fix the broken caffeine timer.  I have one character sitting at 100 caffeine level (no countdown) since he disconnected last week.

 

 

Gains in certain skills have already been abused; channeling, cooking, fighting, meditate, and shield, to name a few.  To remove the effects of caffeine on selected skills now serves no purpose.

 

[Aleck 316]

@bawatIs the above conversation accurately representing the new caffiene intention? Is 1 hour of grinding with coffee + sleep bonus supposed to use 2 hours of sleep bonus and give the gains of only 3 hours uncaffienated grind?

 

Specifically referring to the conversation Lethyria began pointing out that the ticks appear to be only 3x ticks rather than 4x ticks.

[Lethyria 161]

16 hours ago, joedobo said:

Yes, that is correct. What I should have said before is your being misleading. It has to give more sleep bonus in order for 1 hour of caffeinated SB to provide the same overall benefit as 2 sleep bonus hours of non-caffeinated. We should be looking at total skill gain per sleep bonus drained.

 

The current proposed system creates a sleep bonus usage inefficiency. It will be smarter to not use caffeine in all but one strange case. This case is when a player plays so little that they would waste it anyway because of the max sleep bonus cap. Almost all players will either feel guilty about the inefficiency or will be indoctrinated into the mindset. It is mind boggling that Wurm has spent so much time on this so that maybe 5% of players who play an hour or two a week can feel good about using caffeine.

 

I don't feel I'm being misleading but let me reframe my point of view. I'll use numbers without fat as I think that's a separate discussion but one that needs to be had.

I view sleep bonus and my time as resources. I haven't been considered sleep bonus as a motivation to grind as a factor, which could be incorrect.

On an average week I'd guess I grind say 14 hours, and get about 7 hours of sleep bonus from a bed and from a sip of coffee and say 1 sleep powder.

 

With these resources under the current system I'd get less skillgain by not using caffeine than I would using caffeine, see the table below.

Scenario	Total Grind	Grind (No SB)	Grind (SB No Caffeine)	Grind (SB + Caffeine)	SB Drain	Skillgain Total
Normal SB Grind	14	7	7	0	7	21
Current Caffeine	14	10.5	0	3.5	7	24.5

 

As you can see I'd get more skill in the same playtime and sleep bonus by using caffeine, its not just a shortcut to do you SB grind but is giving you more skill total.

 

Under the new 3x multiplier you'd get the same if you did or didn't use caffeine (see below)

Scenario	Total Grind	Grind (No SB)	Grind (SB No Caffeine)	Grind (SB + Caffeine)	SB Drain	Skillgain Total
Normal SB Grind	14	7	7	0	7	21
Current Caffeine	14	10.5	0	3.5	7	21

 

Especially since restlessness is a limited resource I can see that you could argue it deserves more skillgain than you'd otherwise get but this is what the current system does. If you are not hitting fatigue with caffeine you should use it or you are losing out. 

 

I disagree with your assessment of how to value sleep bonus as it does not value time, if I've spent 1 less hour grinding but still got the same total gain from the sleep bonus and I can choose to do the extra hour of non sb grind later to make up the equivalent 2 hours of grind I would have done. Especially for resource limited skills like woodcutting it would be much easier to spend your sleep bonus faster on a focused shorter time of grinding.

 

All of that said the ignoring of fats would mean that I would get less skill in total under the new system, so I would not use it for my main.

[Shydow 540]

I am going to go item by item and put my thoughts on each, marking them with Good, Neutral, or Bad.

 

Quote

Increased volume of teapot and coffee pot.

Bad. What is the purpose of this? Changing the volume makes it more difficult to fit into ovens, making it less efficient. I am personally not a fan of this change.

 

Quote

Old tea recipes can now be created inside teapots

• Peppermint tea
• Spearmint tea
• Camellia flower tea
• Herb tea

Good. Consistency is good, it's nice to be able to make all tea in a teapot.

 

Quote

Coffee beans can now be combined to allow easier bulk roasting

Neutral. Combining is good for time efficiency, but bad for skillgain. Not a terrible change, but I personally wouldn't do it.

 

Quote

Campfires can now be made indoors

Good. Bordering on Neutral. I'd rather be able to make Kahvesi in ovens, but I understand that the intent was to reference the way that it is made in real life, so I respect sticking to the theme.

 

Quote

Caffeine drinks will no longer provide extra water

Caffeine drinks can be used when the water bar is full

Good. Combining these given how related they are. I did not like having to use special moves to throw up continuously, every time I wanted to use caffeine, or more often, when I forgot to drink right away, and the buff expired.

 

Quote

Doubled the potency of every caffeine drink

Doubled the hold duration of every caffeine drink

Good. Once again, bordering on Neutral. It is really easy to get large quantities of coffee / tea, but this does help for less grindy players, to more easily get their caffeine maxed. Making it last longer will also help not have to monitor it quite as closely.

 

Quote

Disabled caffeine extra skill gain on meditation, lockpicking, and shield bashing

We have received various opinions on the current state of meditation and have been discussing it

Neutral. I can understand the intent to reduce the extra skillgain on Meditation and Lockpicking, given that you only need to use a few seconds of sleep bonus to get the full effect, however, I disagree. These skills are intentionally slow anyway, with their limited ticks with long cooldowns. Additionally, we've allowed players to get enhanced skillgain for months with caffeine, changing it now only hurts players who come later or didn't take advantage of it since Halloween.

Bad. Why is Shield Bashing on this list? It does not have the same "only turn on sleep bonus for a few moments" reasoning as the other two.

 

Quote

Tea leaves will only oxidize outside of containers

Tea leaves oxidization timer will reset when moved into containers

Good. Bordering on too good. Tea leaves, being the cooking difficulty they are, will jump to the best panfilling item around with this change. Given the incredible ease in mass producing them, their difficulty being 40 (Same as 2 ingredient meals; below 30 take a penalty on skill tick size), and the fact they can be cooked in frying pans in ovens, make them absolutely incredible for skillgain. I expect to see a lot of people mass producing tea for not only beverages skilling, but also Mind Logic / Soul Depth / Cooking.

 

Quote

Cocoa beans have been changed to Roasted cocoa beans to distinguish them from cacao beans.

Good. Cocoa and Cacao were easily confused, I like this change.

 

Quote

Added new type of tea, Rose Flower tea

Good. Gives more uses for one of the lesser used forestry products.

 

Quote

Harvesting a Camellia bush will now produce a camellia flower. The camellia flower can be used for the herbal Camellia Flower tea.

Good? Didn't it always give camellia flowers? In any case, same as Rose above.

 

Quote

Add optional ingredients to new beverages

• Tea
  • Spice, sugar, milk, and lemon
• Hot Chocolate/Cocoa
  • Cream, milk, hazelnut oil, marshmallows, humbugs
• Coffee
  • Spice, hazelnut oil, cream, sugar, chocolate, cocoa

Black coffee renamed to Coffee due to optional ingredients

Good. Variety in recipes is never bad in my opinion.

 

Quote

 

Mechanics: Instead of caffeine consuming fatigue, using caffeine with sleep bonus will now develop restlessness, up to a maximum of 5 hours.

Upon reaching 5 hours, caffeine will stop providing its extra skill gain and sleep bonus drain.

By sleeping in a bed (From elsewhere in the thread: Being logged out at all), restlessness is paid back at the same rate as sleep bonus is gained

 

Too much to write here, and it would get lost. Please see conclusion below.

 

Quote

Mechanics: Caffeine skill gain changed to provide 2x the benefit of sleep bonus at 100% caffeine

Neutral. I can understand why this change was made, just makes it more confusing to explain. No real opinion here.

 

Quote

Mechanics: Caffeine sleep bonus decrease speed now unaffected by ccfp fats

Bad. Why is this necessary? Adding exceptions and caveats to things, makes them harder to understand, harder to explain, and overall, more frustrating

 

Quote

Bug: Mint hot chocolate and hot chocolate will no longer give caffeine

Neutral. I don't expect anyone to really make these recipes outside of adding it to the cookbook. 

 

Quote

 

Bug: Fix weights of various caffeine items

Coffee pot 0.10kg -> 1.50kg

 

Bad. Making the coffee pot heavier, makes it much more frustrating to create and improve, and given that pottery items are what they are, overall, I am not a fan of this change.

 

Quote

Tea pot 0.10kg -> 1.50kg

Bad. See Coffee pot above

 

Quote

Coffee cherries 0.05kg -> 0.15kg

Good. As said elsewhere, consistency is good.

 

Quote

Cacao pod 0.05kg -> 0.30kg

Good. See Coffee Cherries

 

Quote

Cacao beans 0.10kg -> 0.20kg

Good. See Coffee Cherries

 

Quote

Coffee Ibrik 0.10kg -> 0.20kg

Good. Consistency is good, it takes 2x 0.1kg items to create. This makes sense.

 

Quote

 

Bug: Fix descriptions of various caffeine items

Camellia Flower

Old: "A bright, long-blooming flower pink camellia flower."

New: "A bright, long-blooming pink camellia flower."

Cocoa Bean

Old: "The dried and fully fermented fatty seeds of Theobroma cacao. How did it get here?"

New: "Dried and roasted beans from a theobroma cacao tree."

Cacao Bean

Old: "A rugby ball-shaped fruit of from a theobroma cacao tree."

New: "A rugby ball-shaped fruit from a theobroma cacao tree."

 

Good. Consistency. I do think that "Theobroma" should be capitalized though.

 

Quote

Bug: Very small quantities of caffeine consumed will once again provide caffeine

Neutral. Without context on how big a "very small quantity" is, or what else is involved here, I can't really comment.

 

Quote

Bug: Difficulty fix for picking produce from tea, coffee, and cocoa planters

Good. Will make these items even more valuable to stockpile, as they will actually give decent gardening skillgain to pick, like other items harvested from planters

 

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Bug: Coffee Ibriks are now heavy enough to smelt

Good? The creation QL of ibriks concerns me that this may turn out poorly.

 

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Bug: Remove ability to pick seeds from yellow and white tea leaves

Good. Consistency

 

Now let's get back to the meat of the feedback, restlessness.

To start off, I am glad that caffeine is being decoupled from Fatigue. There are too many actions that don't use fatigue, that it made for an uneven playing field. Those skilling things like Channeling, Weapon skills, Archery, etc. benefitted massively from caffeine, while players who were doing things like Digging, Mining, etc. were regularly forced to stop grinding (and in some cases, stop playing entirely). This was bad for the game, and I am glad that it is being changed.

However, I am not convinced that restlessness, as it is currently designed, is a better solution.

My main concerns:

• Restlessness only going down while offline feels bad. I don't like that players who stay online are "punished" by having their restlessness not decrease. I would like to see an alternative way to reduce restlessness, even if at a slower rate. Suggestions Below.
  • Perhaps have restlessness go down at a slow rate while at full stamina (and not performing actions). That way, things like sailing, standing around and chatting, or being at a sermon group, will not "punish" a player for being online.
  • Maybe have certain actions be "relaxing" and give a small reduction to restlessness. Ideally, these would be things that people could do to "change up" their grind, without making them stop playing entirely.
  • Alternatively, make it so certain non-caffeine drinks help with restlessness (like herb tea or hot chocolate). Making them only usable every so often and reduce restlessness by an amount based on QL of the drink would prevent abuse, while also giving a new niche for these drinks.

[Tigrosaur 30]

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Bug: Fix weights of various caffeine items

Coffee pot 0.10kg -> 1.50kg

Tea pot 0.10kg -> 1.50kg

 

1 hour ago, Shydow said:

Bad. Making the coffee pot heavier, makes it much more frustrating to create and improve, and given that pottery items are what they are, overall, I am not a fan of this change.

 

Coffee and tea pot are currently the lowest weight liquid containers in the game, making them better than water skins (0.25kg) to carry around liquids "on the go".

[Shydow 540]

1 minute ago, Tigrosaur said:

Coffee and tea pot are currently the lowest weight liquid containers in the game, making them better than water skins (0.25kg) to carry around liquids "on the go".

Waterskins are already awful for this purpose. A wooden plate is the same weight (0.25kg) and holds over twice as much as a waterskin (6kg vs 2.5kg) and is far easier to make (log + carving knife vs having to get leather). Coffee pots, teapots, and ibriks are 0.1kg, but only hold 2kg each.