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Keenan

Caffeine Rework

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4 hours ago, gnomegates said:

So if I understand this correctly you still wish for your players to have to log out in order for restlessness to start to go down. So after a grind session I have to log out for an hour for it to start to drop. Ok, in that hour someone who is more casual, who has limited play time to start with, will just go play another game, and the more this happens the less they will want to log into Wurm. The goal should be to keep them logged in playing your game, not encourage them to log out.

Quote

I feel that anytime a mechanic is added to a game that encourages players to log out and not play the game in order to get a benefit, is a bad thing. I would think you want players to stay logged in and playing your game.  

Typical grindy people mind set, want the restlessness to go down so that they can grind again with caffeine. Log out because they can't grind in a quicker way, aka with caffeine.

I think the intention of caffeine is, after the grinding with caffeine, u stay online doing normal wurmy thing in wurm rather than log out.

U choose to log out instead of doing normal wurmy thing in wurm, that's ur choice. That means doing normal wurmy is not the reason to make u stay in wurm. I believe grinding is what make u stay. 

And the goal of caffeine is not help the grindy people grind all day with caffeine, its for the (causal who grind a bit) can do other thing in wurm after using all the sleep bonus in a short time by grinding with caffeine.

If the grinding with caffeine is the goal for u to stay in the game, i think u gonna be disappointed in this update.

 

However, forgot what i was saying if the quote below is true

Quote

Restlessness does in fact go down when not sleeping in a bed, but will only do so after 1 hour minimum sleep

 but according to

Quote

So not sleeping in a bed will mean it never goes down? 

Quote

By sleeping in a bed, restlessness is paid back at the same rate as sleep bonus is gained

so, will restlessness pay back while staying in wurm?

Sleep bonus gain while sleeping. Sleep bonus not gain while staying in wurm. So restlessness is not paid back while staying in wurm?

Edited by Coach
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15 hours ago, Keenan said:

Mechanics: Instead of caffeine consuming fatigue, using caffeine with sleep bonus will now develop restlessness, up to a maximum of 5 hours.

  • Upon reaching 5 hours, caffeine will stop providing its extra skill gain and sleep bonus drain.

  • By sleeping in a bed, restlessness is paid back at the same rate as sleep bonus is gained

 

How hard would it be to just add a debuff that after 3 hours of using caffeine you can't use it again for 24 hours?

 

Log on, log off, fatigue runs out, stand around, don't play, play and now Restlessness?

 

Wow, you guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be, almost feels like Caffeine! Hey great, how's it work? Throw spaghetti at the wall see what sticks. Oh I see I think we can program that in.

 

Thank gawd I don't use caffeine, don't think about caffeine and 99.99% sure will never use caffeine.  Any mechanic that limits my ability to play a game how I choose to play it or dictates that I have to log off for something to work quit frankly is a lazy cheap cop out mechanic and poorly designed.

 

Not taking into account how and who would use this mechanic and the various ways they would, shows a disconnection between the, I dunno, Designers and the player base and a lack of knowledge of what goes on in the game.

 

With restlessness this feels like real life example, ATM at a bank only works for 2.5 hours a day and then has to 'rest' for 5 days to be able to work again.  How many programs would be fired on the spot for that?

 

Anyways, good luck with figuring this out, a simple 24 hour debuff to not be able to use caffeine again woulda been Much MUCH more simpler than all this convoluted over thinking.

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16 hours ago, Keenan said:
  • Bug: Fix weights of various caffeine items

    • Coffee pot 0.10kg -> 1.50kg

    • Tea pot 0.10kg -> 1.50kg

    • Coffee cherries 0.05kg -> 0.15kg

    • Cacao pod 0.05kg -> 0.30kg

    • Cacao beans 0.10kg -> 0.20kg

    • Coffee Ibrik 0.10kg -> 0.20kg

 

Cacao pod and coffee cherries taking from the food bin still weight 0.05kg.

 

Related weights that still need to be fixed (if I remember): coconut weight when made is smaller than the one stored in food bin; cocoa bean weight from planter pot is like half the weight of those found by forage/botanize.

 

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3 hours ago, Coach said:
5 hours ago, gnomegates said:

So if I understand this correctly you still wish for your players to have to log out in order for restlessness to start to go down. So after a grind session I have to log out for an hour for it to start to drop. Ok, in that hour someone who is more casual, who has limited play time to start with, will just go play another game, and the more this happens the less they will want to log into Wurm. The goal should be to keep them logged in playing your game, not encourage them to log out.

Quote

I feel that anytime a mechanic is added to a game that encourages players to log out and not play the game in order to get a benefit, is a bad thing. I would think you want players to stay logged in and playing your game.  

Typical grindy people mind set, want the restlessness to go down so that they can grind again with caffeine. Log out because they can't grind in a quicker way, aka with caffeine.

I think the intention of caffeine is, after the grinding with caffeine, u stay online doing normal wurmy thing in wurm rather than log out.

U choose to log out instead of doing normal wurmy thing in wurm, that's ur choice. That means doing normal wurmy is not the reason to make u stay in wurm. I believe grinding is what make u stay. 

And the goal of caffeine is not help the grindy people grind all day with caffeine, its for the (causal who grind a bit) can do other thing in wurm after using all the sleep bonus in a short time by grinding with caffeine.

If the grinding with caffeine is the goal for u to stay in the game, i think u gonna be disappointed in this update.

 

Not really sure why you crossed out what I said above..... I mean your assuming things by your statement "Typical grindy people mindset"  I am far from a grinder, no I am not a casual player, but I spend most of my time doing something else on one of my 3 deeds, building, or terraforming and the such. I do not like the grind and I stay away from it if possible so not sure where you are coming from with this statement either.

 

If I do grind and wish to take advantage of caffeine I'm asking and trying to get clarification that logging out will not be needed to get rid of restlessness.

 

You say that you think the "intention of caffeine is, after the grinding with caffeine, u stay online doing normal wurmy things." I do not see the devs previous statements as meaning that, whey they said that you have to sleep for an hour just to get the relentlessness to begin to wear off. Meaning that after grinding, I will need to log out for an hour....that is my concern, is a mechanic that makes people feel that they need to log out for any period of time. I do not feel that is wise. I don't need reasons to stay in the game, and is not my concern with caffeine, nor do I need it to stay in the game, as you suggest, if you read my posts it is 100% about making people feel the need to log out for any reason. 

 

 

 

Edited by gnomegates

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6 hours ago, bawat said:

I personally don't feel like caffeine is the fix we're looking for to how these skills currently work, and that something larger needs to be done with them. We have had several internal discussions on this, but it isn't something we can look into with this update.
Also, ideally we don't want caffeine to be absolutely needed when travelling, or something players feel burdened to carry around with them. For these reasons observed, we have decided it would be better to leave meditation, lockpicking and shield bashing skillgain as it has previously been.

 

So you going to disable coffeine on thise skills just because of someone don't need to feel obligated using coffee when travel? Is that problem with thise skills really? Why it's not been disabled from start and huge window of opportunity been held open for older players now to exploit it and newer player that could actually benefit can't now? If the problem is using the sleep bonus not on the while timer and just the last few seconds then what have that to do with coffeine, when it's basic sleep bonus problem that you can just use it anyway still

 

It's been few months now and now you say it it's a problem for not apparent reason other then someone there don't like it

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7 hours ago, bawat said:

That's my mistake for forgetting to update the changelog from an earlier build. Restlessness does in fact go down when not sleeping in a bed, but will only do so after 1 hour minimum sleep

Can someone explain how it actually will work?

The original post said it will only go down while sleeping. Does it mean if I slept 1h I can be online and it keeps going down? So basically when hitting 5h limit of coffee, 1h sleep, then back online and doing non-coffee stuff while restlesness recovers?

 

Because the system as explained in OP means it'll push me to being offline much more instead of doing social activities in the game. Currently I'm online around 13h due to forced home office times, mostly hanging out or being idle (due to real life work) and not grinding. When I'm training however I do want it to be efficient; so as it was specified in the original post it would mean I'd get about 27 minutes worth of coffee per day to cover mission and rite SB, that is very little and force me to be offline much more to keep training sessions efficient, even if most of the time I'm not training at all.

 

PS: my calculation goes as this:

- sleep SB and restlesness recover at the same rate, 12h offline for 30m SB and restlessness

- coffee consumes SB in 1:2 ration so for 12h sleeping I get 30m SB and can consume another 30m non-sleep SB for the amount of restlessness I recovered

- that means, to keep coffee balanced I need to be offline at least 12h for every 30m SB gained outside sleeping (e.g. missions, rites, sleep powder)

- my online schedule is ~13h online, so I'd get ~11h offline time and 27m SB & restlessness recovered, leaving room for an additional 27m SB from missions/rites per day

- on Defiance there's often multiple missions solved per day (unless we're on a downtime due to "impossible" missions) so that will mean a lot of additional sleep/offtime being required

 

I don't expect anyone to care about my playstyle, i.e. being online to hang out and chat or doing idle things, and the tone on this thread seems to be "deal with it", but I'm leaving my conclusions here since I was asked to.

 

Anyways, if the "only regenerates offline" was wrong I'd love to hear the correct mechanic as its planned.

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If I understand correctly

  • we still need to actually be offline and sleep in bed for at least one hour before the restlessness will start regenerating
  • restlessness is ticking up during all the time SB is used with active caffeine buff regardless any actions performed

Is this whole caffeine system is targeted to the VERY occasional players ... and mainly those who are logging in a few hours only each week to grind?

I still don't see what was the big problem with the original way it worked except the water bar problems.

 

 

 

 

 

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Guys, I think a lot of people here confuse this as a mandatory mechanic. Coffee is completely optional. You can just burn SB and grind the regular way. You can play for 12 hours a day if you want. 

 

You do not really have to use coffee. This is more aimed at the working joes here that cannot play during the week and want to catch up on some skills in the weekend, which is completely fine. 

 

The only thing I want to add is that it would be nice if restlessness level would go down regardless if you sleep in a bed or not. Call it normal metabolic balance, the body slowly regulating its functions to return to a balanced state or whatever. 

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1 minute ago, elentari said:

Guys, I think a lot of people here confuse this as a mandatory mechanic. Coffee is completely optional. You can just burn SB and grind the regular way. You can play for 12 hours a day if you want. 

 

Coffee has been ingame for quite a while now. Its nice to spend less time training. So you offer me the choice to double my grinding time again, or staying offline much more, or just stopping to play the game the way I enjoy it. Neither option is great.

 

6 minutes ago, elentari said:

The only thing I want to add is that it would be nice if restlessness level would go down regardless if you sleep in a bed or not.

 

So you're complaining about the same thing as many other people while you just said it doesn't matter? 😉

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Because hardcore players incorporate a system that is ment to help the casuals, the discussions about how to make this work and how to have it feel rewarding etc. will never have a good finality since even on forums the percentage of casuals will always be under represented compared to hardcore players.

 

So i think the best compromise would be to just let cofee have different boons and incorporate the extra xp boof into it after a character has been offline for a set ammount of time. This way you can make sure that the hardcore players wont use this in their daily grinds because even tho is ment to help the casuals because the hardcore ppl use it as a default for their grinds it actually has the reversed effect and helps make the gap larger not smaller.

 

So the only way to try and make sure that does not happen is to have cofee maybe give a stamina buff by default or some other boon to skills effect not xp gain and then if the toon has been offline for let's say 12h will get 3h of xp effect if they drink caffeine.

 

Sure ppl will argue that hardcore players will just have alts and rotate between them now to which i say: no solution is perfect and more prem alts more income for the game so..

 

And this way the hardcore players wont be able to milk every ounce of xp from coffee and efectivelly increase the skill gap compared to the casuals that can now just log in drink cofee and groom 2 sheeps then get distracted and afk. But hey that grooming action on cofee woohoo the xp gainz on that one!:)

 

L.E. Maybe have cofee drinking be a boon to sailing in some way since alot of ppl are  sad because of weather rng and maybe have sailing while under the effects of cofee give like a 10-15% speed bonus might help keep the demand of high ql cofee while having it give the xp buff for just 3h after the 12h of uninterrupted time of being logged out/toon.

 

So by tying cofee to a sailing boon you could shoot 2 birds with one stone.... or not.. wurmians are weird so hard to anticipate the reaction to anyting:)

Edited by Cipacadrinho

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2 minutes ago, Cipacadrinho said:

Because hardcore players incorporate a system that is ment to help the casuals, the discussions about how to make this work and how to have it feel rewarding etc. will never have a good finality since even on forums the percentage of casuals will always be under represented compared to hardcore players.

Quite true here. In fact I would argue, we are probably at best 5-10% of the total wurm population here, and most of the casual players might not even use the forums at all in the first place. 

 

However this new coffee mechanic will most likely put casual people in the position of buying large amount of coffee in order to play catch up, since I doubt most of them will have the time or beverages skill required to make decent ql coffee or harvest it in the first place. 

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36 minutes ago, elentari said:

Quite true here. In fact I would argue, we are probably at best 5-10% of the total wurm population here, and most of the casual players might not even use the forums at all in the first place.

The people here are mostly trying to change the mechanic into longer caffeine grinding time, because the people who talk here is the grindy people. No matter u like or hate grinding, u like caffeine in grinding.

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Yeah I wonder how many ppl will be excited to play with half the skillgain the had the past months

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If you made a poll asking us if 1 we'd prefer fatigue or restlessness, then my vote would be the fatigue version.

 

My change wish list (on my phone atm, can't make proper bullet list):

* Make some needed fatigue related changes (make thing like making healing covers, grooming animals, picking from pottery planters, channeling and other timer based actions use fatigue).

* Make coffee drinkable at full thirst.

* Make kahvesi brewable in an oven

* make beans combineable for roasting

* Keep the fatigue version.

 

It was fine 😢

Edited by Borstaskor

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im very disappointed..... i came in here ready to whine and cry about coffee nerf and i can't find a single thing to be unhappy about :(  

😛 some changes, but all fair in my eyes, this is a nice patch. 

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5 hours ago, gnomegates said:

 

Not really sure why you crossed out what I said above..... I mean your assuming things by your statement "Typical grindy people mindset"  I am far from a grinder, no I am not a casual player, but I spend most of my time doing something else on one of my 3 deeds, building, or terraforming and the such. I do not like the grind and I stay away from it if possible so not sure where you are coming from with this statement either.

 

If I do grind and wish to take advantage of caffeine I'm asking and trying to get clarification that logging out will not be needed to get rid of restlessness.

 

You say that you think the "intention of caffeine is, after the grinding with caffeine, u stay online doing normal wurmy things." I do not see the devs previous statements as meaning that, whey they said that you have to sleep for an hour just to get the relentlessness to begin to wear off. Meaning that after grinding, I will need to log out for an hour....that is my concern, is a mechanic that makes people feel that they need to log out for any period of time. I do not feel that is wise. I don't need reasons to stay in the game, and is not my concern with caffeine, nor do I need it to stay in the game, as you suggest, if you read my posts it is 100% about making people feel the need to log out for any reason. 

 

 

 



Going to bed in real life is acctually good once in a while, it might suprise you. 
Jokes aside, im sure the restlessness will be up and about ready for a grind once a week for most types of players in the end anyway. I think why it leaves a sour taste in most of our mouths is becasue we had the overly generous coffe buff now for more than a week, had it started like this we wouldnt have felt like we lost something as much as we gained something.

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12 hours ago, bawat said:

I really liked the fatigue system because it targetted caffeine very exclusively to people who don't play often, and as you said - you can still do stuff even when completely out of fatigue. Restlessness still targets this demographic by being available to players who don't play a lot, and less available to players who play frequently.

The change to restlessness however means we can both remove the fatigue-scaling water modifier and allow people to continue playing normally after recklessly using 100% caffeine.

Players should also now be able to estimate what % of caffeine they need, and not lock themselves out from playing tomorrow if the day suddenly becomes available.


So in short, changing from fatigue to restlessness allows play after use. And the system provides an incentive to return on the weekend. These extra freedoms to play when suitable should help to prevent burnout and maybe even increase player numbers on the weekends.

I call BS on this. You WILL lose players. THey'll only log on when their restlessness allows. 

 

I do not know anyone who uses 50% caffeine. It just isn't worth it. It's either all or none.

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On 1/25/2022 at 3:57 PM, Madnath said:

How will it be affected by things like bedrolls that only give you 75% of the SB over time?

Restlessness removed is directly proportional with time slept, regardless of bed. There is also a 1 hour minimum sleep time requirement, same as sleep bonus.

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19 hours ago, chefpeewe said:

Will this affect skill gain when grinding beverages and mind logic through panfilling (roasting dishes) ? Like 1 combined bean only gives one tick, in stead of 5 ticks for 5 beans prior ? Or will this 1 tick be 5x bigger?

Did a quick test. The tick size is independent of weight involved and is not 5x bigger

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13 hours ago, Blacklotus said:

Is this relentlessness a buff, and how does it interact with server crossing? I also agree with the reasoning that having a feature that requires your players be offline to get the benefit is a bad mechanic.

 

There should be a way to alleviate caffeine's effects ingame such as meditation, fishing, cooking or even fighting.

That's correct, Restlessness is a buff that can be found in the Spell Effects window. It follows the player between servers and clusters.

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12 hours ago, Archaed said:

I can't say I agree with this, as the fatigue system was much more forgiving in terms of what can and cannot be done. 

 

Regenerating one hour of fatigue every three hours vs one hour of restlessness every 24 is a direct nerf, and not "allowing more flexibility" 

 

No one locked themselves out of playing using this system. 

 

Additionally, I don't understand what you mean by judging what % of caffeine they need given the sleep bonus multiplier is based on that, no one would go for less than the full bonus, and no one is burning themselves out by playing the game. 

 

What they will do is find less incentive to login if they cannot grind due to restlessness. 

Keep in mind that with the old system, burning 100% caffeine would cost x4 fatigue, there was a 1-hour cut-off, and a non-linear thirst filling system that would make it increasingly more difficult to use up that fatigue. It wasn't simple, and you'd have no idea how long you could use caffeine for.

Yes, as you pointed out, regenerating will take longer. Is it a buff or a nurf? Depends on if you're the target audience or not.

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12 hours ago, Mantas said:

So does that mean you build up restlessness by simply having active sleep bonus + caffeine buff (no matter if you perform any action), or its similar to fatigue build up, which only happens when performing actions?

That's correct, simply having sleep bonus and caffeine active at the same time produces restlessness regardless of whether you are performing an action or not.

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11 hours ago, Coach said:

Typical grindy people mind set, want the restlessness to go down so that they can grind again with caffeine. Log out because they can't grind in a quicker way, aka with caffeine.

I think the intention of caffeine is, after the grinding with caffeine, u stay online doing normal wurmy thing in wurm rather than log out.

U choose to log out instead of doing normal wurmy thing in wurm, that's ur choice. That means doing normal wurmy is not the reason to make u stay in wurm. I believe grinding is what make u stay. 

And the goal of caffeine is not help the grindy people grind all day with caffeine, its for the (causal who grind a bit) can do other thing in wurm after using all the sleep bonus in a short time by grinding with caffeine.

If the grinding with caffeine is the goal for u to stay in the game, i think u gonna be disappointed in this update.

 

However, forgot what i was saying if the quote below is true

 but according to

so, will restlessness pay back while staying in wurm?

Sleep bonus gain while sleeping. Sleep bonus not gain while staying in wurm. So restlessness is not paid back while staying in wurm?

Apologies for the confusion, restlessness is paid back only when logged out. This is regardless of whether you're in a bed or not.

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what about workarounds like epic portals

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8 hours ago, gnomegates said:

 

Not really sure why you crossed out what I said above..... I mean your assuming things by your statement "Typical grindy people mindset"  I am far from a grinder, no I am not a casual player, but I spend most of my time doing something else on one of my 3 deeds, building, or terraforming and the such. I do not like the grind and I stay away from it if possible so not sure where you are coming from with this statement either.

 

If I do grind and wish to take advantage of caffeine I'm asking and trying to get clarification that logging out will not be needed to get rid of restlessness.

 

You say that you think the "intention of caffeine is, after the grinding with caffeine, u stay online doing normal wurmy things." I do not see the devs previous statements as meaning that, whey they said that you have to sleep for an hour just to get the relentlessness to begin to wear off. Meaning that after grinding, I will need to log out for an hour....that is my concern, is a mechanic that makes people feel that they need to log out for any period of time. I do not feel that is wise. I don't need reasons to stay in the game, and is not my concern with caffeine, nor do I need it to stay in the game, as you suggest, if you read my posts it is 100% about making people feel the need to log out for any reason. 

 

 

 

The intention is that people can continue to play after using caffeine. You do not need to log out for 1 hour afterwards to continue to play. The 1-hour thing is the minimum time someone needs to sleep before they can qualify for sleep bonus and restlessness removal. (Mentioned here https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Sleep_bonus)

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