Caffeine Rework

[Finnn 3,321]

if 3x and no ccfp save was intended.. gg pay2win practice is unlocked, it's pointless to use with only 3x multiplier, you effectively lose ccfp bonus time and extra base 100% skillgain at the cost of saving time; most players already spend long hours playing wurm

 

new players/casuals or "vets" will still get more from their sb if they don't use coffee at all

[Vorticella 958]

1 minute ago, Finnn said:

new players/casuals or "vets" will still get more from their sb if they don't use coffee at all

If you have the time to use up your sleep bonus at the normal rate, then don't use coffee. If you don't have much time to play and always have a full sb bar, use coffee. It doesn't matter if your sleep bonus is being used less efficiently if you can't play enough to make a dent in it anyway.

 

It's not about getting more out of your sleep bonus. It's about getting more out of your time, and you only need it when your time is limited.

 

It's also not about a particular type of player, it's about the circumstances. There are times when I can play a lot and easily burn down my sleep bonus at the normal rate. During those times, I have no need for coffee. There are other times when I can't play much and the bar is still nearly full when I log out. During those times, I will use coffee.

[Tristanc 570]

I think Vorticella just summarized my view of it very well in that last post.

 

It accurately describes what I believe the Caffeine change was meant to accomplish.

 

[Finnn 3,321]

3 hours ago, Vorticella said:

If you have the time to use up your sleep bonus at the normal rate, then don't use coffee. If you don't have much time to play and always have a full sb bar, use coffee. It doesn't matter if your sleep bonus is being used less efficiently if you can't play enough to make a dent in it anyway.

 

It's not about getting more out of your sleep bonus. It's about getting more out of your time, and you only need it when your time is limited.

 

It's also not about a particular type of player, it's about the circumstances. There are times when I can play a lot and easily burn down my sleep bonus at the normal rate. During those times, I have no need for coffee. There are other times when I can't play much and the bar is still nearly full when I log out. During those times, I will use coffee.

It was never about getting more out of sleep bonus.

Caffeine now makes you effectively lose more than 25% skill, by downgrading 4x to 3x and losing ccfp.

Any non-noob/casual will be disgusted when comparing the numbers, that's what most seem to mean, they are just unhappy about the nerf.

Me? I don't care.

Feedback is all it is, what it's done with it is out of our control.

 

Caffeine is currently the best pay2win mechanic, nobody with better understanding should be using it, anybody with a few spare coins(sleep powders) will to catch up and get ahead or others.

There are a few skills where you have to compromise to save resources or use it because you don't have time to utilize your sleep bonus better. It's situational, there's no normal or casual reason to be using it if you cut 25+% skillgain and your goal is to get skill..

[elentari 2,660]

13 hours ago, Finnn said:

Caffeine is currently the best pay2win mechanic, nobody with better understanding should be using it, anybody with a few spare coins(sleep powders) will to catch up and get ahead or others.

This is almost always the case. People with extra funds tend to also have extra time on their hands since they go together. You can't compete with someone with a large wallet. 

 

Caffeine right now is exactly in the spot where it needs to be. It helps people with too little free time and those that can play a lot, aren't even obligated to use it, unless they want to burn down more sleep powders than usual, but even so. Nothing is forcing you to drink coffee and turn on that SB. It's a completely optional system. 

The feedback was a bit overblown since people previously wanted to also gain SB while also recovering fatigue by simply playing. Keep in mind there are certain skills and activities that use zero fatigue. It was a perfect system for hard core grinders but the coffee update was never meant for the hardcore people who want to min max every aspect of the game. And my playstyle itself is about 90% min-maxing when it comes to skillgain so I'd rather have a system geared to most wurmians rather than the min-maxers. 

[Vorticella 958]

 

13 hours ago, Finnn said:

Caffeine now makes you effectively lose more than 25% skill, by downgrading 4x to 3x and losing ccfp.

 

Caffeine doesn't make you lose anything but sleep bonus, which you have too much of anyway if you're using it (that's the point). You can think of it as spending extra sleep bonus to get more skill in a shorter time, not to get more skill overall. It helps people who can't play as often keep up with those who have more time. They can spend the extra sleep bonus because they are offline so much that they wouldn't be using it up anyway.

 

13 hours ago, Finnn said:

Caffeine is currently the best pay2win mechanic, nobody with better understanding should be using it, anybody with a few spare coins(sleep powders) will to catch up and get ahead or others.

 

How? You can't pay to remove restlessness. Are you sure you understand how this all works? It seems like you missed the update or something and are still thinking about caffeine as it was first introduced. Restlessness puts a limit on how much caffeine you can use, and the only way to remove it is by being offline. If you're online a lot, you can't use this mechanic to get ahead. You could before, but you can't now.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Vorticella

[Finnn 3,321]

22 minutes ago, elentari said:

This is almost always the case. People with extra funds tend to also have extra time on their hands since they go together. You can't compete with someone with a large wallet. 

 

Caffeine right now is exactly in the spot where it needs to be. It helps people with too little free time and those that can play a lot, aren't even obligated to use it, unless they want to burn down more sleep powders than usual, but even so. Nothing is forcing you to drink coffee and turn on that SB. It's a completely optional system. 

The feedback was a bit overblown since people previously wanted to also gain SB while also recovering fatigue by simply playing. Keep in mind there are certain skills and activities that use zero fatigue. It was a perfect system for hard core grinders but the coffee update was never meant for the hardcore people who want to min max every aspect of the game. And my playstyle itself is about 90% min-maxing when it comes to skillgain so I'd rather have a system geared to most wurmians rather than the min-maxers. 

Would you recommend to a "new" or "casual" player to use something that effectively produces loss of ~1/3 skillgain for the sleep bonus used to gain skill? #wogic

 

3 minutes ago, Vorticella said:

 

 

Caffeine doesn't make you lose anything but sleep bonus, which you have too much of anyway if you're using it (that's the point). You can think of it as spending extra sleep bonus to get more skill in a shorter time, not to get more skill overall.

 

 

How? You can't pay to remove restlessness. Are you sure you understand how this all works? It seems like you missed the update or something and are still thinking about caffeine as it was first introduced. Restlessness puts a limit on how much caffeine you can use, and the only way to remove that limit is by being offline. If you're online a lot, you can't use this mechanic to get ahead. You could before, but you can't now.

read the reports... people complain about base skillgain loss and results like base+sb+sb bonus, you lose ccfp save, which make you lose a lot, roughly 30% is not a small deal

 

nobody in whole thread suggested that afaik(haven't read everything, but the first time I read that is from you); 

it's odd that you claim to be "casual" and try to explain things to somebody who min-maxes

 

I read the new mechanic as penalty to use for anybody not willing to waste sleep bonus, and forces long hour grinds to optimize skillgain.

You get less, a lot less, deal with it.

Trying to say it's good is odd, you can't.

Sure having coffee now(compared to not having it at all) is better, but the mechanic is stupid to use when you run the numbers. #wogic

 

[Caolon 114]

2 hours ago, Finnn said:

I read the new mechanic as penalty to use for anybody not willing to waste sleep bonus, and forces long hour grinds to optimize skillgain.

 

The current implementation of caffeine broadens what it means to optimize skill gain. Now, you can optimize skill gained per unit of grind time (option 1 - using caffeine), or skill gained per unit of sleep bonus (option 2 - without caffeine). Players whose bottleneck is playtime (i.e. they have abundant sleep bonus) or who don't relish the grind will choose option 1. Players whose bottleneck is sleep bonus (i.e. they have abundant playtime) and don't mind the grind will choose option 2. 

 

It seems odd to frame this as penalization. No one is forcing anyone to optimize one way or the other. It is a choice. Each option has advantages and disadvantages, which is the essence of a balanced game that caters to different play styles.

 

Also, as has been mentioned, there are situations where even time-rich min-maxers may choose to grind with caffeine. Think resource-limited grinds like woodcutting, cooking, charcoal making, butchering – heck, just about anything depending on the given player's particular circumstances at the time.