Caffeine Rework

[Tigrosaur 30]

11 minutes ago, Shydow said:

Waterskins are already awful for this purpose. A wooden plate is the same weight (0.25kg) and holds over twice as much as a waterskin (6kg vs 2.5kg) and is far easier to make (log + carving knife vs having to get leather). Coffee pots, teapots, and ibriks are 0.1kg, but only hold 2kg each. 

Using a plate to carry around 6kg of water (How big is this plate we are talking about that it can even hold 6kg of a liquid? Shouldn't this be more like 0.6kg?) sounds just as wrong as carrying around a whole teapot because they are much lighter than a water skin.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Tigrosaur

[TheTrickster 2,284]

Aye, a plate shouldn't be able to carry liquid.  Maybe 0.1 or 0.2, or indeed 0.6 at the most.  

 

Tea and coffee pots being lighter than water skins could make a certain amount sense in some contexts, but IRL you wouldn't carry a teapot around because of the shape and open spout.  Physics doesn't really work in Wurm.

I like waterskins for RP value, but given how much a character has to drink (even with good ccfp and nutrition) they do become impractical. I always carry two, and often have two more in my vehicle (if it doesn't just have a barrel).

 

That all said, there aren't a huge number of places in Wurm where you are more than a short trip to a water source.

 

Heavier pots, if they be made of pottery, shouldn't really be an issue.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by TheTrickster

[Shydow 540]

18 hours ago, Tigrosaur said:

Using a plate to carry around 6kg of water (How big is this plate we are talking about that it can even hold 6kg of a liquid?

5 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Aye, a plate shouldn't be able to carry liquid.  Maybe 0.1 or 0.2, or indeed 0.6 at the most.  

 

 

Given the volumes of some of the items that are made using plates, this would not be feasible. Lettuce alone, a staple in salads, is 1kg of volume. There are also many sandwich and salad recipes that involve liquid ingredients, requiring it to be able to hold liquids. Personally, I would have liked the plate to have been heavier to account for the fact that it is simply better in every way than a water skin, but this is how the game has been since the cooking update about 5 years ago. 

 

5 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Heavier pots, if they be made of pottery, shouldn't really be an issue.

The main reason I have a problem with this, is that pottery items are not repairable / improvable once fired. Combine that with the fact that coffee and teapots do not have a safe storage location, aside from limited space in a magic chest, makes this a recurring problem. Now, with the increased volume as well, you can fit fewer of them per magic chest, requiring either more magic chests, or a continuous stream of creating new ones. Then you have to also decide is it worth improving a rather heavy pottery item, potentially with low pottery skill, and have it last a little while longer before it decays, or leave it at creation QL, and have it decay quickly. This is a frustrating experience all around. 

[Jaz 2,665]

 

19 hours ago, Tigrosaur said:

 

 

Coffee and tea pot are currently the lowest weight liquid containers in the game, making them better than water skins (0.25kg) to carry around liquids "on the go".

 

19 hours ago, Shydow said:

Waterskins are already awful for this purpose. A wooden plate is the same weight (0.25kg) and holds over twice as much as a waterskin (6kg vs 2.5kg) and is far easier to make (log + carving knife vs having to get leather). Coffee pots, teapots, and ibriks are 0.1kg, but only hold 2kg each. 

Also my best bet for water container are the measuring jugs already. Not too heavy and very versatile with the volume setting ability up to 10kg.

[Finnn 3,303]

wtb thermos; sealable w/o pegs and oddities that consume and require insane amount of maintenance making new constantly or bulk storing "kits" dying fast with every use; courier/dm enchant for no decay, 10L space, holds only coffee/tea, heat bonus for w/e kind.. time or ql boost effect; limited to 1 per container/inventory or it takes decay

all that magical electrum, metallurgy, blacksmithing, jewelrysmithing and no wurmian is able to make a metal container for some tea/coffee.. sadge : /

[hemrzz 1,278]

Should have just made it so caffeine worked on tier levels.

 

skills 1 - 70 Caffeine effect 100

 

Skills 70.01 -> 80  Caffeine effect 50

 

Skills 80.01 -> 90 Caffeine effect 25

 

Skills 90.01 -> 100 Caffeine effect 10

 

Would allow those newer players to catch up and would remove the need for another Fatigue mechanic.

[elentari 2,660]

Kinda disagree. Caffeine should be a booster, a trade off and nothing more. It should also give people an incentive to skill beverages, which there was little before this update. Few people had beverages as a skill and those that had it, specialise in a niche market selling alcohol. 

 

It also doesn't help that skilling beverages in the past was incredibly difficult.  Personally I like this update, not sure how I feel about the intoxication system but the fatigue system is archaic right now and doesn't work that well as an "anti-macro feature".  

 

As for those that want to make a living out of selling coffee, well it's still possible, although at a cheaper price. Not sure why so many are upset about this, any mechanic needs to have some sort of balance and people tend to forget this system is completely optional for grinding skills. No one forces you to drink coffee, can always do it the classic way. 

 

If anything, It gave me an idea about an extended mechanic we could add on top calling it "adrenaline". You can trade skillgain for faster action timers. For example terraforming (leveling) or surface mining is a tedious action. Instead of burning SB + coffee to get skillgain, we could potentially trade any skill gained for 2x timers to surface mine or level an area. The system would work the same, with intoxication mixed in, it's simply aimed at a different goal, aka getting stuff done faster at the expense of gaining any skill. Think about it this way, once you hit a certain high level in any skill, you don't really care anymore about minor 0.001 skill gains, you just want a chore done faster. 

 

To disable any potential market abuse, I'd limit this feature to only certain actions such as : digging, terraforming, mining, making support beams, building,  tending to fields, animal husbandry (grooming, milking, shearing), surface mining, woodcutting. 

 

The trade off is the same, the idea is that people who have little time to play also have little time to do the typical wurm chores of harvesting basic resources or doing maintenance or resource maintenance around the deed. This way, someone who has X number of hours to play can trade SB + caffeine for faster timers making an off deed farm, or maybe getting some clay for future building, etc. 

[Vor 22]

On 1/25/2022 at 3:31 PM, Keenan said:

Caffeine drinks can be used when the water bar is full

 

Can we get this change for pizzas also?

[Egard 3,361]

On 1/25/2022 at 9:31 AM, Keenan said:

The update for pushing these changes live is scheduled for February 1st.

Is this still the case? Overwhelming number of feedback both negative and few positive. Are there further rebalances before going live. 

[Tor 523]

Or, can we have both versions of cafaine live? i don't mind trading my fatigue that i won't use anyways, for extra skill gain on SB. Those that complained are running out of it can use this new one

[elentari 2,660]

Would be nice if we had a sort of poll in game or a discord developer vlog on the topic so we could gauge the opinion of more wurmians. I feel like we are a tiny minority here on the forums, and as such our playing habits might not be representative of the game. I don't want to call everyone here a "hardcore player" but I doubt the majority of us posting on this thread would fall in the "casual player" category either.  

[Shinso 120]

Dont Touch Coffee!
Coffee will bite you back!

[Xallo 2,599]

So now that the update has been pushed back until Thursday, I think it would be a great idea to give the community some insight on what your final plans for caffeine are, whether or not you have taken any of the community's number of pages of feedback into consideration, and if any information collected from the Test server has been used for tweaking the final changes.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what improvements and tweaks have been made since the original posting. Hopefully all of my planter racks are still handy!  😀

Edited February 1, 2022 by Xallo

[elentari 2,660]

2 hours ago, Xallo said:

So now that the update has been pushed back until Thursday, I think it would be a great idea to give the community some insight on what your final plans for caffeine are, whether or not you have taken any of the community's number of pages of feedback into consideration, and if any information collected from the Test server has been used for tweaking the final changes.

 

Curious as well. I think this is the biggest mechanic change in game in a lot of years, bigger than the AH update, journal update, maybe as big as bridges. It affects skilling, player behaviour and how we'll interact with the game, how often we login, probably Sleep Powder price, volunteers for missions, etc. 

 

We'll need a lot of two way communication to get this right, as obvious as the statement might seem. 

 

[Blacklotus 276]

I just don't understand why you keep asking for feedback if you're going to ignore us for the most part. What's the purpose other than to aggravate the community?

[wipeout 1,355]

1 hour ago, Blacklotus said:

I just don't understand why you keep asking for feedback if you're going to ignore us for the most part. What's the purpose other than to aggravate the community?

Hasn't that always been the reason why 99% of these posts are made? We ask for their clarification on what they work on and they go "We will not share anything unless it is really close to release" thus not giving enough time for player feedback to really affect how the system will work and in the end it leads to nothing more then people complaining about it.

I really do believe that part of the reason this is done is in hopes that in time we will stop complaining about obviously bad changes being brought into the game and this is something that a lot of game companies do be it while knowing they do it or not but actually properly engaging with the community and listening to them(like has been asked) vs going "hey so this is what we are going to change we want to tell you and ask for your opinion BUT we will ignore it" is what tends to be done not only here but on a lot of games and all these games tend to not grow beyond what they are at or dwindle into nothingness.

Wurm has had its moments where the devs listened and the features that came out from those moments were mostly loved and then there are plenty of times where features were forced onto us or the community was just outright ignored when it was an obvious bad feature or had a bad element to it that they knew would cause a clash but they still wanted to have it in there.

In the end all we can ask for is for their attempts to listen and take our feedback into consideration and go back to the drawing board instead of pushing onwards headstrong refusing to listen to anything just to get their way, wurm is full of moments where bad features made player numbers dwindle either significantly or temporarily or increase the slow decline faster.

Events such as jackal that could have been great that should have been pushed back to make sure it was in a more finished state are a prime example of this, if a feature big or small feels unfinished or the posted up information causes backlash with most people going "now i wont use it at all as it is not worth it" then the right thing to say is "okay we are pushing feature x back with x weeks because it is not ready/x part has received major backlash and we want to make sure to please the community"

The amount of devs who do this is small but those who do their communities are happy communities the people enjoy their games and enjoy the interactions they have with the dev teams as they feel like if a feature actually negatively impacts the enjoyment of any part of it if they speak up they can get it changed and make the game they play more enjoyable.

But i have spoken in way more depth about this in the past and so far no matter how many likes and how many quotes those posts get and no matter how many others talk about it the posts get ignored by those who could learn from it because 1 it leads to more work and 2 its a step away from the closed boys club of elites that the devs are seen as right now and honestly i wish there was someone dedicated to releasing patch notes who's sole job it was to ask all the devs on their work status to check the internal roadmaps and check up on devs to see how features are coming along, to talk with the community about how x idea might fit in if the devs arent sure, to be the proper face of future updates and take in feedback and compile it and show that x idea or part of idea might or might not be as welcomed and liked, then adding in ingame tracking of feature usage said person can over time create a better vision of what players like about the game and what they like about the features and gauge player feedback on the forums/discord/twitter and so forth combined with those numbers to visually show how well or bad things are.
Having such a person would do wonders for the team i think but here i go dreaming again.

[Borstaskor 503]

Could learn a thing or two from osrs when it comes to interacting and listening to the community.

[Grotesque 9]

Yeah, we're basically like the OSRS community.  Pkers vs PVMers who hate each other with a passion while voicing displeasure for changes that would help the enemy side.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

On 2/1/2022 at 11:24 PM, wipeout said:

...[a bunch of stuff you can read just up there]...

 

For those of you not in NZ or Oz, "go" also means "say" .😁

[ftoz 122]

I agree, that caffeine is OP, but need more changes different way. For example: if gather green coffee beans 50ql, it shouldnt be possible make 90ql kahvesi from. Ql of final product should be cut by gardening skills and also milling. Gardening and milling skills are useless in it. If that skill cut output ql, so it will be much harder to make 90+ ql kahvesi.

[elentari 2,660]

Sorry ftoz, I disagree with that sentiment. It's already quite a chore planting, harvesting daily, roasting coffee, grinding it, combining in in proper volumes so you can boil it, but adding more restrictions (aka nerfs) through milling / gardening would make the update even more unappealing to people. I've noticed quite a few are upset about the update, making things more difficult and tedious now for coffee wouldn't add any value to this update whatsoever. That's just my two coffee beans at least. 

[revengo 277]

Caffeine gains should have been disabled from the get go if a rework was in mind, making it another window of opportunity that new players will never have.

 

A tiered system of skill gains like Hemz' suggested would have been a more simple fix that avoids this issue. Wurm needs to be more approachable for new players.

 

Also, perplexing that shield bashing was taken off of caffeine bonus and still hasn't been fixed, just an extra nerf for funsies.

[MordosKull 822]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:24 AM, wipeout said:

i wish there was someone dedicated to releasing patch notes who's sole job it was to ask all the devs on their work status to check the internal roadmaps and check up on devs to see how features are coming along, to talk with the community about how x idea might fit in if the devs arent sure, to be the proper face of future updates and take in feedback and compile it and show that x idea or part of idea might or might not be as welcomed and liked, then adding in ingame tracking of feature usage said person can over time create a better vision of what players like about the game and what they like about the features and gauge player feedback on the forums/discord/twitter and so forth combined with those numbers to visually show how well or bad things are.
Having such a person would do wonders for the team i think but here i go dreaming again.

this, ie transparency/community collab

Edited February 3, 2022 by MordosKull

[DADLER 172]

I suggest making the sleep bonus drain 1.5x instead of 2x so it’s proportional to the skill modifier of caffeine skill gain.

Edited February 4, 2022 by DADLER

[elentari 2,660]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:01 AM, DADLER said:

I suggest making the sleep bonus drain 1.5x instead of 2x so it’s proportional to the skill modifier of caffeine skill gain.

It's more like it didn't properly work well the first time it was launched. From what was written the bonus was multiplicative, aka it was too high in the first place.