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Keenan

Caffeine Rework

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This is a nice system I do agree with tying it to the hours ppl cant play in the game it will be slow for those playing daily (me included) but atleast most of the playerbase will be given the same amount of coffe per day (around 16 hours worth of restlessness). But im curious why removing bashing was considered? Did I miss something?

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The changes sound reasonable. I share the concerns in regards of meditation etc., especially lockpicking.

As to recovery of restlessness, it would be better to have it the double amount of SB gained, so 1hr in 12 hrs, not 24. Mind it is capped to 5hrs anyway.

Also, it could be nifty to grant, say 15 or 30 minutes restlessness time for every SP eaten..

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2 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

The changes sound reasonable. I share the concerns in regards of meditation etc., especially lockpicking.

As to recovery of restlessness, it would be better to have it the double amount of SB gained, so 1hr in 12 hrs, not 24. Mind it is capped to 5hrs anyway.

Also, it could be nifty to grant, say 15 or 30 minutes restlessness time for every SP eaten..

 


Grant as increase the restlessness if you eat SP or remove your restlnessness?

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14 minutes ago, Nocturnes said:

Grant as increase the restlessness if you eat SP or remove your restlnessness?

Getting more restlessness credit back when eating SP, to the maximum of SB possible. So, when empty of SB and having restlessness credit used up, eating 1 SP will recover 15 or 30 minutes of restlessness credit.  

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2 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Getting more restlessness credit back when eating SP, to the maximum of SB possible. So, when empty of SB and having restlessness credit used up, eating 1 SP will recover 15 or 30 minutes of restlessness credit.  


I dont think its good if the restlessness could be altered, it could be exploited, knowing this SP sniffing community

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4 hours ago, Keenan said:

Disabled caffeine extra skill gain on meditation, lockpicking, and shield bashing

  • We have received various opinions on the current state of meditation and have been discussing it

Can i ask why thise skills are not disabled by using sleep bonus as well? Because this is pretty much the same thing.

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Ok, I am rather new to the caffeine system, but here is my take:

 

Sleep bonus was originally designed to behave like many other games and allow the casual player to be slightly more competitive, but sleep powder turned into a tradable commodity and purchasable from the traders, so it completely defeated the purpose.  In addition, avid players now work the system of hitting all the Rituals on all the servers, via faith changes, etc.  Oh wait, missions too!  The avid players powers through all the missions to get even more SB.  So the SB system is an advantage to the avid player and detriment to the casual player.

 

So rather than dial that back and make Sleep Bonus something that only accumulates during sleep (or Dev apologies for downtime), caffeine has been added to try restoring the original intent of giving the casual player a chance to have some elevated skill gains in the brief time they have to play.

 

The more you try to add band-aids on top of band-aids, the more the wound under it all will fester.

 

As a casual player, it takes time and resources to set up and operate the whole system, not to mention the need to now skill up beverage making to do it all, or simply go to the Wurm store, buy more silvers and pay someone in-game for the coffee.  All of this, then actually must now do, to try and keep up with the avid players, who are ALL using coffee on the regular.

 

So these caffeine fixes coming have some merit and seem noble, but the core problem still exists.  It actually isn't a benefit to the casual player at all.  The entire system is unneeded complexity that ultimately benefits the avid players.

 

Imagine a world where skill gain formulas get tuned up to compensate for eliminating powder, Rite global cast SB and mission SB.  The only SB ever coming from... wait for it... "sleeping".  Now you have the true, original intent of Sleep Bonus and it actually benefits the casual player for once.

 

(make Ritual global spells and missions give other rewards that aren't balance changers.  Could gain points for purchasing more skins or points for the "Antique Store", where past xmas presents and other special decorative gifts would be available).

 

Edit:  For the record, when I play, I typically play 10-12 hours a day. Terrible I know, but I am not one of the casual players mentioned above.

Edited by Wurmhole
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5 hours ago, Keenan said:

Camellia Flower

  • Old: "A bright, long-blooming flower pink camellia flower."

  • New: "A bright, long-blooming pink camellia flower."

 

The icon for camellia flowers is pink, but the flowers themselves are actually white, both on the bush and the model when they are harvested:

 

unknown.png

unknown.png

unknown.png

 

Camellia flowers also don't seem to be treated like a food item the way other herbs and tea leaves are. They can't be tasted or eaten raw, and they can't be stored in a food storage bin ([20:48:02] The camellia flower would be destroyed.). Maybe that could be fixed too?

 

I'm playing on the test server now and have noticed a few things so far:

  • The text when mousing over the caffeine bonus icon still mentions fatigue

unknown.png

 

  • I was able to drink boiling liquids without getting the message that it would burn my mouth. It does give the message that it would burn my mouth if I taste it, but I'm able to drink it anyway.
  • My character did a raking animation while harvesting from bushes
  • When adding optional ingredients to coffee, the affinity is the only thing that changes. Is that intentional? I thought the optional ingredients would have affected the difficulty, and maybe altered the description of the finished product slightly (like when meals have salt in them, for example)
  • No wood scraps are produced when making shafts and planks
  • Certain equipment slots are not working properly. Items equipped in the back, held items (both sides), belt and hip slots disappear and are inaccessible until replaced by another item. They are still visible on the character, but it's not possible to unequip these items because they are invisible in the character window and body in inventory view.

unknown.png

 

 

That's what I have found so far, hopefully more will come and help test things out :) 

 

 

Edited by Vorticella
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I feel that anytime a mechanic is added to a game that encourages players to log out and not play the game in order to get a benefit, is a bad thing. I would think you want players to stay logged in and playing your game. I think it would be good to add in a passive reduction to the restlessness so that people can still do other actions around deed or at a rift or visiting neighbors and friends. 

 

Maybe make some actions make restlessness go down faster, fishing is supposed to be a relaxing thing to do, maybe when tending animals the restlessness goes down. Picking flowers/sprouts/fruit. Some of the less physical activities that can be done in game. Heck, just sailing a ship, or as a passenger in a vehicle maybe. Anything except making people feel that they need to log out to regain the benefit of anything. 

 

Some people will have alts to play sure, but we are talking about this being aimed at more casual players and most the casual players I know don't have enough time for one character let alone alts that they can spend time on.

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please, please come up with solutions/fixes to the proposed "problems" with the caffeine bonuses (lockpicking, med, shield bashing etc) prior to nerfing them. this cycle just keeps continuing where we get a nerf/adjustment and a "we'll figure something out later" and the later never comes. 

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Shield bashing? Just remove extra skillgain from pvp bashing

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I recall mention that the difficulty of picking and planting coffee, tea and cacao will be increased. Is this still something being considered for this update?

 

Edit: Never mind, I am blind!

Edited by McGarnicle

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7 hours ago, Keenan said:

Coffee beans can now be combined to allow easier bulk roasting

Will this affect skill gain when grinding beverages and mind logic through panfilling (roasting dishes) ? Like 1 combined bean only gives one tick, in stead of 5 ticks for 5 beans prior ? Or will this 1 tick be 5x bigger?

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9 hours ago, Keenan said:
    • Cacao Bean

      • Old: "A rugby ball-shaped fruit of from a theobroma cacao tree."

      • New: "A rugby ball-shaped fruit from a theobroma cacao tree."

What is "rugby" in the wurm lore?

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It seems clear Wurm wants to limit usage of Caffeine boosted sleep bonus. It's mostly likely related to Pay to Win fears. This is the third version of the limit. Restlessness only limits how much caffeine boosted sleep we can use over time. And that seems like the best we are going to get.

 

Wurm, I wish you would leave meditation alone and enable caffeine effect on it.

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10 hours ago, Keenan said:

By sleeping in a bed, restlessness is paid back at the same rate as sleep bonus is gained

"By not playing the game you can remove restlessness" 

There should be no mechanic in your game ever that forces you to not play the game in order to progress its timer especially not in the way of "sleep in a bed or else no benefit" what would be better would be the following

it takes 120 hours of time for restlessness to go away or 60 hours of sleeping in a bed(thus for every second spend in a bed 2 seconds is taken off the timer)
This way it still takes 5 days of time period or half that if you are asleep in a bed never playing this way you do not encourage the casual to not play during the week in order to have that 10 hours of grind done in 5 hours every Saturday/Sunday

You should be wanting players to play your game as much as possible and the wurm dev team have a history of making changes to push away their player base of upsetting them of outright killing them off i get that but please start focusing on "We should make mechanics that will entice people to play more" with coffee that could simply be a 5 day timer regardless of spending time in bed or half that if spend in a bed it will still benefit the casual because they spend more time in bed then those active so their coffee use is more often  thus more skill gain but it still allows the active player to use coffee once a week to burn away all sleep bonus that they have stocked up.

As it stands now you just encourage casuals/alts to stay offline and be online once a week vs a bit every day and you want that bit every day.

If i am playing casually because i don't have a lot of time and i want to grind something for 1 i am not going to go out of my way to spend the quantity of time needed to make coffee so im just going to buy it or i just wont bother with it at all as it takes away precious time from playing already.

The notion that "this is for casual players to be able to have double skill gain once every 5 days of time spend offline sleeping in a bed" is just silly as what casual player actually spends days upon days offline sure there are a few who only play on the weekend but those few typically arent focused trying to catch up with those who play every day they just work on their place a bit go out hunting or maybe build some more things.
The casual player you most likely think of is not going to spend hours in a row grinding away at a skill like coffee is made for this will in the end just benefit alts that we are grinding once a week or once a month having double the sleep bonus effectiveness after stocking up on sleep powders during that month.

This feature just will not help the casual player in the way you are hoping it will help them as the casual wurm player isnt focused on trying to grind a skill for what little time they have available, the casual player works on their deed or on stockpiling mats for deed work or being social, its the average wurmian who plays a couple of hours every day or all day that will benefit from this as they are the ones with access to basically infinite sleep bonus and the time to use up that 5-6-7 hours in half the time.

Say you are a casual player who plays only on Saturdays and then only in the afternoon between lunch and dinner as in the morning you did your shopping and you gotta make dinner and then relax and game with your friends/hang out with your partner/kids
So we got 6-7ish hours to work with if even that i did this on stinkvis on xanadu when xanadu came out play a max of 6 hours a week on him after the initial deed was setup and let me tell you between taking care of animals and crops and some mining for more iron and cutting down trees that had grown on the grass on my deed and doing some light hunting around the area for more meat for more meals there is little time to really sit down and grind a skill effectively.
So say i have all my food in a lmc either bought or made it, no work needs to be done on the deed, no resources need to be collected even then there are things like processing resources turning cotton into string hides into leather iron ore into lumps(if you play for 6 hours a week max getting your hands on a smelter isnt something you do early on let alone a wagon unless you buy it but then it becomes a investment game)
Now all your processing is done you got the resources stockpiled there is still items to make things to repair.

Grinding a skill is so far down the list when it comes to playing 6-7 hours a week that by the time you do get to doing that most of the skills you would want to grind would be in the 50-60's from your usage of just using enchanted tools that you brought with the 2 months+silver package you would probably be buying.

 


The min maxing playstyle that coffee is geared towards does not benefit the casual player it benefits the long term player who has become a casual player, it benefits the grindy player who wants a once in a while 2x sleep bonus boost, it benefits those who play a lot but grind rarely but it does not benefit the casual player as the casual player has other things on their mind most of the time vs grinding skills to 70-90 they arent interested in that.
I have a few casual players living around me and i have spoken with them some of them have been playing wurm for years but their deeds seem like 2-3 weeks of work put into them for the daily player(or 1 week in the case of 1 of them) and most of these play maybe 20-30 hours a month the highest skill i have seen was from someone who has played for 6 years and that is woodcutting at 77.3 because they have a decent sized deed(21x21) but as they now dont really play that much they cant grow crops so their farmland is full of trees every time they come back.

What i'm trying to get at here is that for the actual casual player coffee is a thing most wont really use its use case like with missions and rifts and powders will be for the active players or semi active's who have build the deeds they want to build created the home they wanted to create and gathered the resources needed and their goals are now getting numbers into the 90's or high 90's vs working on their place like is the mindset of most casual players i have met in all my years of playing wurm.
I have met a lot of people since the start of wurm and a lot of casual players who found tucked away safe havens or created them and none of them really focused on grinding they enjoyed wurm for the simple fact that they could have a second life and create a home for themselves to escape to and enjoy working on.


The active players especially those who like grinding see wurm as a second job not a second life and its those who see it as a second job that coffee will benefit regardless of how much you try to nerf its time of being able to be used.

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2 hours ago, wipeout said:

The min maxing playstyle that coffee is geared towards does not benefit the casual player it benefits the long term player who has become a casual player, it benefits the grindy player who wants a once in a while 2x sleep bonus boost, it benefits those who play a lot but grind rarely but it does not benefit the casual player as the casual player has other things on their mind most of the time vs grinding skills to 70-90 they arent interested in that.

 

Spot on. 

 

The (casual player as casual player) don't care about grinding skill at all. They don't use caffeine.

The distance between the (casual player as casual player) and grindy player is becoming huge and long. 

The (casual player as casual player) still at 30 skill, while grindy player are benefit from caffeine and reach 90 skill faster.

I feel like the caffeine just forcing or encourage the (casual player as casual player) to grind which violated their (casual casual) style, if they don't want to see the distance. I think i should use the word disparity

 

Seeing these from a grindy player perspective, but idk what the (casual player as casual player) actually think, maybe they don't care the distance or disparity at all.

Edited by Coach
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On 1/25/2022 at 3:06 PM, Archaed said:

So not sleeping in a bed will mean it never goes down? 

That's my mistake for forgetting to update the changelog from an earlier build. Restlessness does in fact go down when sleeping regardless of bed, but will only do so after 1 hour minimum sleep

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13 hours ago, Madnath said:

Meditation I can somewhat understand but lockpicking is already kinda crap to grind, and shield bashing is so broken it's weird to include it in this as it's not even grinded the same way meditation and lockpicking are. If you're grinding bashing there's no doubt you're grinding shield skills too so your SB would be on anyway. Seems like a weird pick to throw in, and not really needed.

Isn't this already the case?

I personally don't feel like caffeine is the fix we're looking for to how these skills currently work, and that something larger needs to be done with them. We have had several internal discussions on this, but it isn't something we can look into with this update.
Also, ideally we don't want caffeine to be absolutely needed when travelling, or something players feel burdened to carry around with them. For these reasons observed, we have decided it would be better to leave meditation, lockpicking and shield bashing skillgain as it has previously been.

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Is this relentlessness a buff, and how does it interact with server crossing? I also agree with the reasoning that having a feature that requires your players be offline to get the benefit is a bad mechanic.

 

There should be a way to alleviate caffeine's effects ingame such as meditation, fishing, cooking or even fighting.

Edited by Blacklotus

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12 hours ago, ChampagneDragon said:

I don't understand teh restlessness.. IMO that's worse than the fatigue drain. At least with fatigue we could do some actions that didn't drain fatigue to allow it to regenerate. With this restlessness change the only way to renew it is to not be in game... that's definitely going to help with population numbers... 🙄

I really liked the fatigue system because it targetted caffeine very exclusively to people who don't play often, and as you said - you can still do stuff even when completely out of fatigue. Restlessness still targets this demographic by being available to players who don't play a lot, and less available to players who play frequently.

The change to restlessness however means we can both remove the fatigue-scaling water modifier and allow people to continue playing normally after recklessly using 100% caffeine.

Players should also now be able to estimate what % of caffeine they need, and not lock themselves out from playing tomorrow if the day suddenly becomes available.


So in short, changing from fatigue to restlessness allows play after use. And the system provides an incentive to return on the weekend. These extra freedoms to play when suitable should help to prevent burnout and maybe even increase player numbers on the weekends.

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1 hour ago, bawat said:

That's my mistake for forgetting to update the changelog from an earlier build. Restlessness does in fact go down when not sleeping in a bed, but will only do so after 1 hour minimum sleep

 

So if I understand this correctly you still wish for your players to have to log out in order for restlessness to start to go down. So after a grind session I have to log out for an hour for it to start to drop. Ok, in that hour someone who is more casual, who has limited play time to start with, will just go play another game, and the more this happens the less they will want to log into Wurm. The goal should be to keep them logged in playing your game, not encourage them to log out.

 

I don't think there should be any logging out to trigger any kind drop in restlessness. I have posted some examples of things that can be done as have others. Please reconsider this logging out situation.

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12 hours ago, Eleraan said:

So for the volume change to beans. Will that affect all the beans I have now? Will they all grow in size in my fsb or will the number I have change. Like how cocoa beans half in number when added to fsb? 

 

Are Ibrik volume going up as well so I can brew more than 2kg at a time?

 

With the beans going up in volume we can make more coffee per bean. Sounds like we need half as much coffee to reach max power now. So we make more and need less correct?

 

Debating if I want to keep being every day or horde beans til they go up in size if they are.

The number you have in your fsb will stay the same, they will simply be a different weight when they come out.
The Ibrik volume is staying the same, but with the caffeine potency and hold duration changes, people will need less than half the kahvesi they did previously. So in practice, you shouldn't need to make as much of it.
I think so, yes, it would make sense to hold on to your coffee beans until after the update when the size of the coffee beans has become larger

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26 minutes ago, bawat said:

I really liked the fatigue system because it targetted caffeine very exclusively to people who don't play often, and as you said - you can still do stuff even when completely out of fatigue. Restlessness still targets this demographic by being available to players who don't play a lot, and less available to players who play frequently.

The change to restlessness however means we can both remove the fatigue-scaling water modifier and allow people to continue playing normally after recklessly using 100% caffeine.

Players should also now be able to estimate what % of caffeine they need, and not lock themselves out from playing tomorrow if the day suddenly becomes available.


So in short, changing from fatigue to restlessness allows play after use. And the system provides an incentive to return on the weekend. These extra freedoms to play when suitable should help to prevent burnout and maybe even increase player numbers on the weekends.

I can't say I agree with this, as the fatigue system was much more forgiving in terms of what can and cannot be done. 

 

Regenerating one hour of fatigue every three hours vs one hour of restlessness every 24 is a direct nerf, and not "allowing more flexibility" 

 

No one locked themselves out of playing using this system. 

 

Additionally, I don't understand what you mean by judging what % of caffeine they need given the sleep bonus multiplier is based on that, no one would go for less than the full bonus, and no one is burning themselves out by playing the game. 

 

What they will do is find less incentive to login if they cannot grind due to restlessness. 

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15 hours ago, Keenan said:

Mechanics: Instead of caffeine consuming fatigue, using caffeine with sleep bonus will now develop restlessness, up to a maximum of 5 hours.

So does that mean you build up restlessness by simply having active sleep bonus + caffeine buff (no matter if you perform any action), or its similar to fatigue build up, which only happens when performing actions?

Edited by Mantas
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