Keenan

Caffeine Changes

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5 hours ago, kochinac said:

Will that mean that you could sip tea to gain coffein power to close to 100 and then take one sip of kahvesi to get maximum timer? Would like to see some numbers on those timers and powers.

 

Right now how it works is the 'hold timer' is based on the quality of the drink and no other factors, the power is based on the type of drink and no other factors which i find stupid, but it is what it is.

 

I will sound off on meditation as well, why would you punish players more for wanting to ease a skill that already punishes them more than enough? 5 skill ticks a day at most, have to wait days or more to even advance to the next level and even then meditation is so utterly broken that its needed a rework for quite some time. 

 

I will be honest, I'm not worried over the 5 day timer if it's built like the other lazily made buffs as of late, one or two crosses to another server and those buffs poof and until that's fixed no amount of restriction using a buff is going to stop players from abusing caffeine.

 

The biggest question I have, is do you intend to punish your players over triffles, or do you intend to actually fix these systems which have been broken for so long?

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It would be nice to see a variety of longer affinity timers with coffee from adding milk, sugar, etc.

Edited by Galatyn
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I do like that meditation wont get bonus from it. Let everyone suffer!

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Well done, now coffee will be great boost for bots who stroking their skills 24/7 and drain their fatigue to 0 without any coffee on both clusters. Why you cant just add intoxication as an addition to fatigue penalty. Doesn't coffee have to help people who have no time to play the game 24/7 and compete with faking bot users.

Edited by Nelsy

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Removing caffeine from Meditation is like fixing the 1g sips with out addressing the main issue of caffeine in the first place.  You are doing a knee jerk fix with out addressing the core issues.

 

Caffeine is supposed to benefit those with low play time. Meditation as it works is a horrible skill for those with low play time. If you only have a hour to play, you at most get 2 chances for a tick, and that takes setting alarms.  Yes those that have more time can get all 5 plus the every 3 hours after that and could use caffeine to boost them.  But that is a bigger problem in general if you are trying to balance it, they are still getting more ahead.   

 

So sure leaving someone who plays alot able to get greater benefit from caffeine might suck. It did really help those that don't have alot of time to play. I am back to mostly having a few hours a day to play, though I have been leaving my character online while I do other stuff just to drain water. At most I get 2 or 3 if I remember, I don't set alarms, chances to meditate. If I am lucky I get one meditation tick a day, having left my character sitting to drain their water I have actually seen my Meditation go up enough to have some hope of seeing progress.

 

I just think this change being made with out fixing the underlying main issue is backwards to what you say you want to achieve.  Similar to jumping on fixing the 1g sip before addressing the underlying issue before.   Please consider not implementing this and fixing Meditation being a PITA to level, especially for those with low play time, than knee jerking a response.  

 

Or maybe make it so sleep bonus only works on the first meditation skill tick gained for the day. Or make it drain all 2 minutes of sleep bonus after meditating. Anything is better than just sayin, No skill for you!

 

Just my two cents. 

 

Other than that amazing patch! 

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Actually I'm the one who support the idea of removing the caffeine effect on mediation and lockpicking! But I'm begging you return the fatigue penalty, because it been great! There is some people who probably cry about fatigue drains so fast with coffee, they are bot users who drain their fatigue even without coffee and some time play on pvp to drain their fatigue even there. And now coffee become only boosting thing for such guys of guys, they are not sacrifice anything if it does not affect on their fatigue. 

Edited by Nelsy

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45 minutes ago, Nelsy said:

Well done, now coffee will be great boost for bots who stroking their skills 24/7 and drain their fatigue to 0 without any coffee on both clusters. Why you cant just add intoxication as an addition to fatigue penalty. Doesn't coffee have to help people who have no time to play the game 24/7 and compete with faking bot users.

 

11 minutes ago, Nelsy said:

Actually I'm the one who support the idea of removing the caffeine effect on mediation and lockpicking! But I'm begging you return the fatigue penalty, because it been great! There is some people who probably cry about fatigue drains so fast with coffee, they are bot users who drain their fatigue even without coffee and some time play on pvp to drain their fatigue even there. And now coffee become only boosting thing for such guys of guys, they are not sacrifice anything if it does not affect on their fatigue. 

 

We're now into the baseless claims part of the thread, where people are being toxic towards other players for not aligning to their own playstyle.

Daily reminder for those of you who claim people who run fatigue to 0 are botters: if it was that easy, we'd all be permabanned by now if it's that easy to see.

And it's also on you to report those people for the integrity and safety of the game.

 

People, please think before you make accusations like this. It's nothing but a toxic mindset you spread to people who don't know better or understand the flaws of the system that's been picked apart many times, and raised as a problem systems by the developers themselves.

And if skills are really not as important as you all say, please stop acting like you must "keep up with the Joneses" each time you post...

Edited by Madnath
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randomly thinking about this, but what exactly is supposed to "provide a boost for casual players" about the new system? the previous one meant that if you grinded for over 2h a day you'd have to choose between running out of fatigue or skilling for a much longer time (running sb the whole time, you get 2h of skilling at 4x for 8h fatigue, which ends up with 8h of skillgain per day for ~3.34h of sb used (239% effectiveness), without caffeine running sb the whole time, it's 16h of skillgain for 8 hours of fatigue and 5.36h of sb used (298% effectiveness)), which means that a player who has much longer to play won't get benefit from the system as they both get more skill/day and better sb effectiveness from not using caffeine, whereas the new system is more towards a p2w generic buff for anyone who wants to shell out for sleep powder as you're not sacrificing anything apart from ~20% sp effectiveness (and 10m for free daily kind of offsets that anyway). some of the worst skills for casual players are timer based ones like meditating shield bashing lockpicking faith whatever, and this patch kicks that down too (you can get 70 meditating before 11th question even without caffeine if you do 9 meditates a day, but casual players who meditate 1-3 times a day will take a year+). The current system has a good balance of opportunity cost vs rewards imo.

 

I already barely use caffeine apart from 10m sb a day as i'm not limited in game-time (that's okay, not every system has to benefit everyone, i'm obviously not the target audience for caffeine), but the proposed changes seems to be a really poor attempt at bringing casual and hardcore players together, if anything it amounts to a generic skillgain increase that just furthers the divide between newer players and older players/hardcore grinders (if you don't use wurmassistant for timer notifications you're going to be wasting a lot of your 5h a week of superskill, so is also reliant on external programs to maximise). kind of gives the impression that if you're not using your 5h super skillgain a week you're missing out too, like a weird daily login thing

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Well for a start, something doesn't need to be said directly for anyone else to be able to understand it's toxic. And trying to tar each player with the same brush is as bad as pointing fingers, especially given I've had fatigue issues in the past when doing my repair grind and others.

The funny thing is I overall agree with you, I think the fatigue cost is actually kinda important for this system, even if I did think the x4 cost was kinda overkill. The extra hour of sleep bonus from the journal is very easy to get, and using full power caffeine with full sleep bonus would mean you hit your fatigue limit before you even used all your SB was kinda funny. But trying to enforce this awful mindset of botters are in the game and nuking their fatigue is just really not a good look.

Edited by Pandalet
Moderation edit

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37 minutes ago, Madnath said:

Well for a start, something doesn't need to be said directly for anyone else to be able to understand it's toxic. And trying to tar each player with the same brush is as bad as pointing fingers, especially given I've had fatigue issues in the past when doing my repair grind and others.

The funny thing is I overall agree with you, I think the fatigue cost is actually kinda important for this system, even if I did think the x4 cost was kinda overkill. The extra hour of sleep bonus from the journal is very easy to get, and using full power caffeine with full sleep bonus would mean you hit your fatigue limit before you even used all your SB was kinda funny. But trying to enforce this awful mindset of botters are in the game and nuking their fatigue is just really not a good look.


Constructive critique cant be considered as toxic, you just have to be able to take a critic, if you feel it toxic for you, it means you can't. I delivered it pretty much constructive to not hear like it just been toxic, hate, trolling. If you there is also meanings of flood on forums, just stop off topic quoting me please, you can say your disagree about how I'm expressing my thoughts to PM. I cant say that it awful mindset thinking like people who play 24/7 are rather bots users than life less souls.

PS: I'm actually sorry about how I said at first time. It could be feels bad about my message if you are Developer, I would like to avoid it since this is not what I want. I really appreciate for the part that bring grind of mediation and lockpicking to normal, because it abnormal to make some specific skills twice easer to grind after year of server start. I reported it long time ago and already lost hope it will get changed, thought already this is how it will work but glad to see it been changed after all xD

Edited by Nelsy

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1 hour ago, Eleraan said:

Caffeine is supposed to benefit those with low play time. Meditation as it works is a horrible skill for those with low play time. If you only have a hour to play, you at most get 2 chances for a tick, and that takes setting alarms.

 

I'm reviewing all the replies and want to wait to make a larger one, but this struck a chord as you're right.

 

I will say that meditation is one of those things I'd love to rework. It's not something we can rework in the near future though, at least not in the timeframe that I wish to push some changes to caffeine. Our time is also split on making these changes, as well as the design and implementation of the Exploration update. Basically, if I were to give a time estimate, I can't see time being dedicated to meditation until Q2 for design and Q3 for implementation. That may seem far off, but I fully intend to bring the changes to the community for feedback. That increases the time it takes to bring those changes about, but also increases the chance that the changes will be what folks want and not what a small team of developers thinks is best for everyone.

 

In the interim, we wished to solve the issue of meditation bypassing intoxication in the simplest manner, though this point raised makes me think we can do better. I do not want to change how sleep bonus interacts with meditation, but perhaps we can change how intoxication works with meditation as that's the crux of why we proposed to remove it in the first place. Lockpicking was also brought up internally as a skill that has a similar interaction with sleep bonus (and thus intoxication), so we'd also look to change that as well. The downside to making these exceptions is trying to communicate the functionality to players. One take-away from my Depth vs Ease of use thread was that people want a marriage of both. Making one-off exceptions to how things work creates confusion. It's easier to say it simply doesn't affect it rather than "it does xyz differently than every other skill".

 

All that said, we'll continue to review the feedback here, and I will work to get some numbers and examples.

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1 hour ago, Nelsy said:

Actually I'm the one who support the idea of removing the caffeine effect on mediation and lockpicking! But I'm begging you return the fatigue penalty, because it been great! There is some people who probably cry about fatigue drains so fast with coffee, they are bot users who drain their fatigue even without coffee and some time play on pvp to drain their fatigue even there. And now coffee become only boosting thing for such guys of guys, they are not sacrifice anything if it does not affect on their fatigue. 

Because you already have high meditation and stuff, very cool

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Few days ago I took cap of coffee at morning and been not able to focus at what I'm doing whole day (irl). Lockpicking and mediation changes is not only about the fact some guys focus on grind these skills and once they are high, it become twice faster for everyone (which is meant the lost tons of their time spend), its also about lore. You cant meditate while you under caffeine. I'm not the one who bring coffee irl, but only one cap made me too much agitated(by caffeine, idk right word) not to be able to work whole day at normal how i'm doing. I'm not against coffee, but this is complete opposite thing to relax and mediation.

@Jomog so you think its ok if you grind something for long time and then it become twice easer to grind, i mean twice... What point to play the game, grind skills if at any point we can just decide turn rates x10 to everything or just make it even simplier, set skills to 100 for all chars. Will it make happy some one? If yes then why we not implement it or disable grind as it is and set everyone's skill to 100. There is borders you cant pass, and one of them in games is does not change something rough. Ok you are high body str, what you say if we make it now twice easer to grind, how about this? Lets nerf scale of Libila and make it twice worse for blocking or complete useless compare to Large Metal Shield, so you lose your time to grind medium shield and will have to regrind to large one. And you will agree now because it will put you in good position, while in same time you know the changes actually will never implemented. Something that happened with meditation and lockpicking this is was not intended and yes 99% players happy with that as you sayd, they didnt grind it before but now it twice easer for them why they should not be happy with that. But they would not think so if it would affect on their skills, on which they been focus whole their play time. For example lets decide at one point to make Weapon smithing twice easer to grind and look what will happened with smiths brain after that, who spent their year to get it to 99. Nothing good. So do not kidding on my like this is only my problem.

Edited by Nelsy

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1 hour ago, Nelsy said:


Constructive critique cant be considered as toxic, you just have to be able to take a critic, if you feel it toxic for you, it means you can't. I delivered it pretty much constructive to not hear like it just been toxic, hate, trolling. If you there is also meanings of flood on forums, just stop off topic quoting me please, you can say your disagree about how I'm expressing my thoughts to PM. I cant say that it awful mindset thinking like people who play 24/7 are rather bots users than life less souls.

PS: I'm actually sorry about how I said at first time. It could be feels bad about my message if you are Developer, I would like to avoid it since this is not what I want. I really appreciate for the part that bring grind of mediation and lockpicking to normal, because it abnormal to make some specific skills twice easer to grind after year of server start. I reported it long time ago and already lost hope it will get changed, thought already this is how it will work but glad to see it been changed after all xD

There's nothing constructive or critical about calling people bots, you've barely even gave actual feedback on the changes outside of "please add back fatigue cost lol haha"

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20 minutes ago, Madnath said:

There's nothing constructive or critical about calling people bots, you've barely even gave actual feedback on the changes outside of "please add back fatigue cost lol haha"

If you would be able to explain me who exactly I called bots, i would be able to send them my sorry, but you cant. You only one who here pointing fingers and calling names directly. Don't you think its insulting me if some one calling me toxic, I'm not toxic, you poking my hart and make me feel really bad and you doing it directly to me and find it funny. Stop talk about off topic stuff, I do not want to talk to you. Unless you can say something about actual theme that exists in my message, but you just stick to how I expressed my thoughts about real topic here and find it funny to continue poking me with it. If I would be GM I would overwatch on guys who worry about they have not enough fatigue. Here is nothing funny at all mate.

Edited by Nelsy

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Suggestion: If you meditate with coffee or lockpicking under it, it could cause you twice longer cooldown. So for meditation is 60 minutes instead of 30 and 6 hours instead of 3h after 5 mediations. Same for lockpicking it could make you 20 mins cooldown instead of 10 minutes. There is also other case for meditation. If you meditate under coffee it could cost you twice skill ticks cooldowns, so you can do it 3 times instead of 5 per day before your cooldown get slower (but it less fair option to be honest). It will allow guys who have no time to get progressing faster, in same time for the guys who doing it like me by alarms set and meditate 9 times per day even it really hard for them. It could be good compromise if there is no other fair options. But to be fair it had to be fixed long time ago, like on next day after coffee patch, and had to be just disabled for these skills while we thinking what to do. Idk why people who spend their time have to compromise to some one who didn't care about the skill before and didn't spend time on it, they lose nothing. It been really stressful for me to meditate hard, and interrupt for it daily, every single cooldown, but if feels now like wasted.

Edited by Nelsy

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Nelsy, you seem to be one of the persons who want to dominate, patronize, and command others, and force them to act your ways. And your proposals are irrational and terrible. When coffee would double cooldown, a player, who could do up to  3 meditations in about 1 hour, could only do one. The casual player in particular would decide to waive coffee altogether. 

 

Even more, if you cannot meditate, not even work when having drunk coffee, it does not mean that others cannot. And when players have the time and enjoy the time to play the game a lot, it is not up to you to deny it to them. They are human beings, not bots.

 

This is a sandbox game. It does not need tyrants.

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28 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Nelsy, you seem to be one of the persons who want to dominate, patronize, and command others, and force them to act your ways. And your proposals are irrational and terrible. When coffee would double cooldown, a player, who could do up to  3 meditations in about 1 hour, could only do one. The casual player in particular would decide to waive coffee altogether. 

 

Even more, if you cannot meditate, not even work when having drunk coffee, it does not mean that others cannot. And when players have the time and enjoy the time to play the game a lot, it is not up to you to deny it to them. They are human beings, not bots.

 

This is a sandbox game. It does not need tyrants.


Nice we got second guy who calling names... why I have to read it? I explained well why its bad for everyone, I bring even suggestions, but you just dislike me personally and that's oh my god only thing why you are even type here something. Don't you think the real tyrants here are the "old" guys, who are drop roots in the forum and game, and mental attacking every new one who say something. I'm new in the game and trying to make it fair for everyone, that's only I done, and you do not like it because it touches your gameplay, how I could even mention fatigue and some one pushing it to zero. I afraid to imagine what will happen if I suggest to make fatigue transfers via clusters and limit rites via making it cross servers and increase faith swap cooldowns, so guys who playing a lot will be not supreme on sone one who cant abuse their faith to get every single rite on every single server and spend their fatigue on pve and pvp in same time.. That would make you free from that crazy non stop grind, you have to be happy.

Edited by Nelsy

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4 hours ago, Ame said:

I do like that meditation wont get bonus from it. Let everyone suffer!

L O L

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New system gives a hard limit of 1hour a day with caffeinte buff.

There could be a burst for w/e reason, but that's it' then the player is forced to play w/o any caffeine benefit for days, besides bonus of 10min sb daily. With 1h irl time and 2x caff buff maintained for an hour - it takes 24hours to recover the intoxication which such grind causes, casual players do not get 2hours of sleep bonus per day to use 1h of sb+caff buff..

 

Easy missions are either not so easy to go and participate alone into them, or time consuming to make it questionable for the cost they require, or the easy ones get finished while players are offline/at work /etc, missions overall suck here and there to participate into them or put excessive amounts of time for the rewards which they offer. There are no alternatives like doable personal missions.

 

I am curious what amounts of coffee it takes to get the buff capped, as for some gains it might be still a small short grind, break and starting after a pause because of w/e irl reasons.. will QL of the coffee affect anything besides timer at best near 30min.. or we'll have to always chug 2kg coffee if we miss to chug the next dose of caffeine within 30minutes, that twitchy play is a bit weird when the timer runs out and 3second timer replaces it to race versus the player if there will be 1 sip or 10 to recover, sure new fix will allow drinking at any time, but this still keeps the 2kg chug to buff to max.

What happens if we miss the 30min timer do we keep the stress 3sec timer and large quantity of coffee consumption?

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10 minutes ago, Nelsy said:

Nice we got second guy who calling names... why I have to read it?

First, I am not name calling. Second, you do not have to read it.

 

10 minutes ago, Nelsy said:

I explained well why its bad for everyone, I bring even suggestions, but you just dislike me personally and that's oh my god only thing why you are even type something here.

 

First, no. You did not explain well. Second, not only it is not bad for everyone, some enjoy what you loathe, but you enjoy to make them suffer when they do. Third, as I do not know you personally, I cannot and do not dislike you. I dislike your awful, patronizing, tyrannic, if not sadistic proposals.

 

10 minutes ago, Nelsy said:

Don't you think the real tyrants here are old guys, who are drop roots in the forum and game, and mental attacking every new one who say something.

No, I do not think so. Contradiction and critique is not "mental attacking". On the other hand, calling human beings bots is an insult if not an accusation to break the rules in addition.

 

10 minutes ago, Nelsy said:

I'm new in the game and trying to make it fair for everyone, that's only I done, and you do not like it because it touches your gameplay,

When new in the game you first should learn. There is a lot to learn. Number one, and axiomatic (in the sense of the old greek mathematicians and philosophers, not Hilbert, as much as I respect him) is that Wurm is a sandbox game. That means that there are no fix paths or rules prescribing one's playstyle. You are free to hate and loathe others', or just choose yours, but you have not the least right to interfere into the playstyle of other players.

 

Just for the record: Minmaxing, or striving for skill 100, is not my playstyle, I am far too lazy and chaotic for.

 

10 minutes ago, Nelsy said:

how I could even mention fatigue and some one pushing it to zero. I afraid to imagine what will happen if I suggest to make fatigue transfers via clusters.

You may suggest it, you may suggest a lot. But do not expect to be taken serious.

 

Fatigue is a dated feature which was broken from start. I have written about already. Any anti macro mechanic by algorithm is broken by design, it punishes players instead of identifying and banning cheaters, and educates better macroers. I very much welcome that the usage of fatigue for caffeine balancing has been abandoned, as this would have blocked a possible removal in the future.

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4 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

First, I am not name calling. Second, you do not have to read it.

 

 

First, no. You did not explain well. Second, not only it is not bad for everyone, some enjoy what you loathe, but you enjoy to make them suffer when they do. Third, as I do not know you personally, I cannot and do not dislike you. I dislike your awful, patronizing, tyrannic, if not sadistic proposals.

 

No, I do not think so. Contradiction and critique is not "mental attacking". On the other hand, calling human beings bots is an insult if not an accusation to break the rules in addition.

 

When new in the game you first should learn. There is a lot to learn. Number one, and axiomatic (in the sense of the old greek mathematicians and philosophers, not Hilbert, as much as I respect him) is that Wurm is a sandbox game. That means that there are no fix paths or rules prescribing one's playstyle. You are free to hate and loathe others', or just choose yours, but you have not the least right to interfere into the playstyle of other players.

 

Just for the record: Minmaxing, or striving for skill 100, is not my playstyle, I am far too lazy and chaotic for.

 

You may suggest it, you may suggest a lot. But do not expect to be taken serious.

 

Fatigue is a dated feature which was broken from start. I have written about already. Any anti macro mechanic by algorithm is broken by design, it punishes players instead of identifying and banning cheaters, and educates better macroers. I very much welcome that the usage of fatigue for caffeine balancing has been abandoned, as this would have blocked a possible removal in the future.

Your problem guys, that you prefer to talk about me instead of the real problem. So I'm out of here, have fun.

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42 minutes ago, Finnn said:

New system gives a hard limit of 1hour a day with caffeinte buff.

There could be a burst for w/e reason, but that's it' then the player is forced to play w/o any caffeine benefit for days, besides bonus of 10min sb daily. With 1h irl time and 2x caff buff maintained for an hour - it takes 24hours to recover the intoxication which such grind causes, casual players do not get 2hours of sleep bonus per day to use 1h of sb+caff buff..

 

I'll clarify the debuff here.

 

Let's say I grind at 100 caffeine for 5 hours on a Wednesday. The next day, I'll be able to grind again for an hour. Or if I skip a day, that'll be 2 hours on Friday. The debuff ticks down from 100%, and once below 100% it becomes available to use again

Different levels of caffeine cause the debuff to scale accordingly. So 50 power will result in 10 hours of grinding before losing the benefits.

 

I hope that clears things up.

 

Also, please keep the discussion on-topic and avoid personal attacks. Disagreements are a good thing as they often lead to better ideas, but only if done in a civil fashion.

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Speaking as a casual grinder, I have actually been able to gain skills and feel far more accomplished since coffee has been introduced than a year or two before. 

 

I see so many hardcore players in here, people who love to login, setup the grind, and just churn away at it. 

 

What I'm not seeing are people like me, who can only do 30-60 minutes in a day, or if they can get 2 hours in its great, and they feel accomplished and proud. 

 

I got to 90 gardening and STILL took longer than anyone here would have, but it was possible because the coffee gave me an incentive and motivation to work in sprints. 

 

If you play this game more than two hours a day, or can grind for hours on end in one sprint, consider that coffee may not be directly aimed at you. 

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I only lol-ed at pretty negative comment that's offtopic in addition.. idk if that's considered not civil, it's pretty common response to humorous ... anyway.

 

That was clear and it's quite concerning as we'll all probably always roll on 2-3 hours intoxication unless you literally do nothing and decorate or just do not grind, anybody grinding should be constantly into the 60-80% intoxication leaving 1-2 hours sb+caff buff to be used, it's just how it's going to be for 90% of the few people that just play to grind some skills high, there's NO reason not to make use of additional 100% skillgain if the cost is few beans that are extremely easy to obtain, further more we'll be daily consuming for 10min sb. Plain, simple, known, transparent issue or everyday we'll fall into.

 

What I was wondering is what is the amount of coffee to reach 2x rate and what is the fading and regain option, currently the cost from 0 to 100% power is 2kg kahvesi, and then every ~30min another 0.20L sip.

Maybe I'm asking for this information too early, but we'll have situations where we have to get off the pc for w/e bills/people irl or in other games/messengers/phone calls/WHATEVER(plenty of situations) just a few minutes off the pc or tabbed out to miss on drinking that sip >>>> currently we lose power fast every 3sec once that happens, meaning we have to buff with 2kg coffee, and we keep the 2kg cost to rebuff to 100. 

Have anything been done for these cases where that happens, do we somewhat keep the twitchy timer tracking to maintain caffeine power, if this was normal food or drink and it was normal "affinity", we'd just drink once and carry on.. but this is a new kind of buff that requires 10x sips to get to the normally - "normal" state we want to use, there's probably NO reason to ever use less than 2x power for coffee.

Edited by Finnn

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