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Keenan

Caffeine Changes

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You mean like intoxication causing an allergic reaction in combination with sleep powder?

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On 12/11/2021 at 12:00 AM, Keenan said:

One thing to keep in mind about caffeine is that it is designed to provide a boost for casual players. We understand that it takes quite a bit of effort to make these drinks, but this is by design and creates a market for caffeinated beverages. 

 

Casual players are unlikely to have the beverage, gardening and milling skills to make good quality caffeine, so they will most likely need to purchase this from more full-on players who do have those skills - yes it creates a market, but how does that help casual players?

 

I agree with Joemog, who said: "IMO Wurm is a tedious enough game (still love it) and only benefits from getting easier and getting more QOL."

 

To reduce some of the tedium in making kahvesi for example, could the following please be considered:

 

1.  Adjust the volume of ibriks, so that after adding 1 lot of ground coffee beans to an ibrik, allow the maximum amount of water needed to be added directly to the ibrik, without having to go via an adjusted measuring jug (with or without bits of stuff in it to try and get the maximum amount of water).  Since ibriks are only used to make kahvesi, this would make brewing it just a little less tedious and be a QoL boost.

 

2.  Allow ibriks to be used in ovens as others have suggested  - not just campfires - again a QoL boost.

 

3.  Allow more than 1 lot of green coffee beans to be roasted in a roasting dish.  Green coffee beans are 0.10kg; a roasting dish is 6 liters - so for efficiency, less tedium and more QoL, how about 3 or 5 green coffee beans in a roasting dish?

 

4.  Please do not remove meditation from the caffeine system - at the moment, that is probably the most popular skill it is being used for - by all means have it work only if SB is on from the start of meditation.

 

Thank you, in hope !

 

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Just remembered, would be huge qol if we could get flashing message over screen when caffein buff  is likely to expire, something like 2, 1 minutes, and 30, 20, 10 seconds before it ends to reminds us to sip again. Biggest annoyance is that people get distracted in very last minutes and all effort in building power of bonus is wasted

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Just my two irons, some random thoughts, having not said anything about caffeine since it was introduced at all. While I admit I don't fully understand the system yet or the changes coming, as a casual player (someone who rarely 'grinds' and when I do it is for very short periods of time) I am happy to use coffee as it currently is. It works fine for a short term bonus, even though timers are still bugged ( I have priests at a sermon group right now who seem to have like 7 hours at 10 or 20% for several days now, despite not having touched coffee since they have been there, and have been relogged every day- not worried about it since they are just listeners so gaining no benefit really) .

However once the stamina drain is replaced with the intoxication system I probably will no longer use it. Just my personal thing, I don't like the intoxication system and so don't use it just like I don't use the 'not official' self harm (or have others injure you) system to get extra skill.  Just not comfortable with all that, my personal thing and it doesn't fit with my casual play style.

This new mechanic is clearly very important to a lot of folks, I just don't think to be fair it is for casual players at all since like myself they would mostly need to buy it and that is simply an extra cost for very little benefit if you are just going to be 'grinding' something for an hour or so. I see it (as it is now and as it is going to be after changes) as actually being more for those hard core grinders who are the 'squeaky wheel' in so many things anyway :D  I'm fine with that, just wish we would call it what it is,  which is not for casual players.

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Having it tied to fatigue made it a mechanic aimed towards casuals.

 

Removing that and adding an arbitrary 5h per week cap in a roundabout way will turn it from something aimed towards casuals to something everyone (who cares about skillgain) will have to use as an additional optimization method.

 

How about keep it the way it is and simply remove the water restriction and slap on a few qol changes, such as ibriks in ovens. More elaborate and complicated changes doesn't necessity mean better changes.

 

I agree with the previous poster: let's call it what it is, which is not a mechanic for casuals.

Edited by Borstaskor
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5 hours ago, kochinac said:

Just remembered, would be huge qol if we could get flashing message over screen when caffein buff  is likely to expire, something like 2, 1 minutes, and 30, 20, 10 seconds before it ends to reminds us to sip again. Biggest annoyance is that people get distracted in very last minutes and all effort in building power of bonus is wasted

nope.. 

 # B E E S 

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On 1/14/2022 at 4:07 PM, Finnn said:

nope.. 

 # B E E S 

just today forgot to refill timer twice on two characters,which pissed me of, would gladly take some messages to prevent that. comparing it to bees is quite stupid

but anyway having short timer i have to monitor is the biggest flaw of the feature for sure next to being capped with water level

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I'd rather have patched what we are missing since affinities were made a thing.. and have right click to remove positive buffs or "spell-effects"-like window with all temporary buffs food/drinks/caffeine/spell buffs if you like.. so the player have control over it's own temporary buff-statuses and there's option to remove them to test or properly utilize them.

 

With food/coffee this can easily solve the rebuffing of temp buffs.. (rebuffing 14-20-500hour pizza buff with 2nd bite when you have 1hour left on that buff is providing pathetic results which frustrate you from playing any longer same day, or you 'just have to go border hop' - yea.. go waste 30+minutes of your life to wash buffs on the border, oh also relog.. so you cant see ghost buffs that are but aren't there..)

 

Why metagame when there are issues that can be reported and addressed?

 

And back to the topic.. removing the buffs unlocks functionality.. suddenly you have control to reset buffs and control over caffeine.. you grind on 2x or 1.5.. and you want to 'save' sb and grind longer with some boost.. for w/e reason, now you just remove the buff and buff to w/e rank you like.

 

To prevent that facepalm and anger moments with resetting caffeine to 0... IRL caffeine have build up in human system.. it lasts for long hours, there's a reason you can't just drink few coffees before bed.. effect is strong at first and with time it fades, but not like the mechanic ingame with a magic mop in few seconds. If you build up to 1.8x remain on that one for hour/s, you've set that for a reason.. if you want to lower it.. reset it or have a mechanic that drops a tier... drinking specific tea could possibly do that as mechanic, detox?

 

No need to spam the screen with more flashy messages and colors.. keep the game chill, it's what makes it what it is, and what keeps players poking around for long hours.

If you want blinking or sounding alarms.. every time you drink coffee WA can be set to play a sound in x minutes.. so you can better balance when you get reminded to drink 2-3-5minutes before it expires.. in a way this is way better control compared to flashing message that will annoy most people(bees....)

 

Using WA to do this is another flaw with the game.. if specific mechanics require external software to do simple things or workaround not that well implemented mechanics(archaeology reports for example)

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On 12/11/2021 at 1:00 PM, Keenan said:

Caffeine intoxication will decay linearly over the course of about 5 days.


This to me just sounds like bad game design and will make it useless and allocate caffeine for the "lets grind in the weekend" sessions only and make it be yet another tool for those who want to min max their grinding time by stacking dozens of modifiers to get the most out of every action for that once a week grind session of save all their sleep bonus and affinity food for that 1 session kinda stuff

Were as right now its a nice thing to use for a daily usage for those who want to use sleep bonus and are grinding day after day(the reality of wurm honestly those who got the time and setup will grind like that) at the cost of being able to do things due to fatigue

If it was say a few hours it would make more sense but 5 days? Why 5?

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I was excited for the caffeine system as I don't get to put in many hours these days but this whole change basically seems to be a negative for casual players? As other people have said already you are basically saying that your definition of a casual player is someone who plays 5 hours a week with no wriggle room for anything else (not that the new bonus will be any good or worth it)

 

I thought sleep bonus was to help casual players and the caffeine speeding up SB usage basically solved that problem. Also to add onto what someone else said, the current system is not suited to casual players, it's very hard to go through all these convoluted processes with no QoL features. I don't really understand the logic behind making a feature designed for a certain player type out of reach by layers of complexity and funnily enough layers of grinding..? like people said with making coffee in campfires, why cant you grow the plants directly into a tile? 

 

Maybe I just don't' get it but this ISNT a feature for casual players.

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On 1/15/2022 at 7:46 PM, kochinac said:

just today forgot to refill timer twice on two characters,which pissed me of, would gladly take some messages to prevent that. comparing it to bees is quite stupid

 

Well I did make a suggestion (I believe it's also linked on this particular thread) to enable a toggled auto-sip function when coffee timer is <60 seconds. But I got shutdown with the logic it would be a "botting mechanic"....which I still find nonsensical but whatever. It would be a qol improvement in my mind. 


We have to have more tedium in the game constantly watching a timer so we don't lose a very short lived buff. Am curious to see how the 5 hours of intoxication decay over time, assuming it's as advertised. Should be 1 hour of intoxication per day then? 

Edited by elentari

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9 hours ago, elentari said:

Well I did make a suggestion (I believe it's also linked on this particular thread) to enable a toggled auto-sip function when coffee timer is <60 seconds. But I got shutdown with the logic it would be a "botting mechanic"....which I still find nonsensical but whatever. It would be a qol improvement in my mind. 

 

The proposed change is bypassing the water thing just like alcohol, so it'd be no issue at all to recover if you miss. 

 

I dunno, I get the impression most people here are the ones who want to use it to optimise gains regularly rather than the more casual players it's aimed at, so it's going to be biased feedback either way. 

 

All I know is it has allowed me to focus and have fun in the game, and I like that

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I do not believe there's a casual on the forums that cares or knows where to address concerns or w/e about mechanics, etc..

so, yes, feedback here is by far not at all from any casuals, to my knowledge

 

twitchy part remains.. but with meditation out of the way.. what else uses 30 minute delays to miss your skillgain pill alarm, only prayer.. with 20min delays.. pray once, pray 2nd time.. and you're likely going to be around and not afk or on your way to the store or watch a tv serie.. have a dinner like normal person before you have to chug 2kg coffee just to have 30min of 2x rate skillgains, go afk and oh well 2kg coffee chug, chug, chug... maintenance for this mechanic and taking any breaks from having a face on your screen or screen on your face.. whichever one prefers.. is impossible. Mechanic is quite alien to others so far existing in wurm, while it's good that another sip resets the buff, something that endgame could kind of reuse for food for years.. it keeps short timers and high maintenance with time/attention and resource sink. 

 

0.232kg kahvesi per bean.. you need 2kg per 100 power every 30min.. if you have any kind of real life and you aren't a freak on a leash(bound to a phone/watch/etc alarm to pull you to your pc to drink) -> you'd find this quite annoying

--if it's hard to read it.. if you have any kind of family to care about or do chores.. it's HARD to maintain a 30min timer and not suffer the 2kg chugs often or develop some kind of weird nerve kicks from missing the timer and penalty to tax you 10x material every time--

 

wish somebody could come up with similar needy and demanding mechanic in the game to explain why other should be or shouldn't be angry about it

Edited by Finnn

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How many beans do you have? 

 

Let's not pretend this is an absurd requirement. I'd happily have a drink require 2kgs and that be it each time rather than worry about power 

Edited by Archaed

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32 minutes ago, Archaed said:

How many beans do you have? 

 

Let's not pretend this is an absurd requirement. I'd happily have a drink require 2kgs and that be it each time rather than worry about power 

Roughly? 160,000 maybe, lazy to login and check atm. ( I am definitely one of the most severe farmers of this, but by far not on top, I believe there are a few with more)

Let's face it.. it's insane, and unhealthy amount, I've only cooked half of them before ditching several things at once.

 

I think we can all agree not all have or should have this kind of amounts, and with the annoying kind of recipes we currently have it does take a bit of effort to keep things going daily or force things to settle for future days.

I do have fair amount of coffee beans, but I've rarely ever brewed any actual coffee, there's a reason for that, it's hard to consume the bulk, it decays, it's annoying to store or carry around, huge amounts just make you care for more than you should really,

 

Problem is not that the drink is 2kg to 100 power.. it's that it resets to 0 if you aren't on the spot to take another dose to maintain it, next thing you need another 2kg.

Sure with 2-3 planter racks of 30x planters in each.. you get a steady income of 90 beans a day or cooked with 100ml water+ bean to get 0.2L per bean that's 18L a day, plenty or .. enough to reset your buff 9 times, still 9 times 30minute buff is more than enough with the hard limit of 1hour a day or 5hours burned at once.. but it's not that casual to go maintain 90 planters and daily harvest them and cook coffee constantly etc etc etc

Game had enough chores as it was.

 

It's obviously easy to work around it.. but the whole mechanic have already a concrete wall of 1hour to 5 hours a day/5days... it seems pointless to add more annoyances to the mechanic, normal person will hardly use more than 1-3hours at once and 4-12kg coffee at worst is hardly an obstacle, especially if it's possible to do only twice a week.

Edited by Finnn

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Yes, so I'm saying why not require 2kgs, can't drink more until it wears off, then another 2kgs?

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Would be nice if the proposed feedback would also look into roasting more beans per dish. Have to say, I have become a bit neurotic now due to the dragging and dropping beans into roasting dishes. 

 

Perhaps we could roast a combined of 10 beans per dish? Or at least 5 ? 

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1 hour ago, elentari said:

Have to say, I have become a bit neurotic now due to the dragging and dropping beans into roasting dishes.

 

Not to mention the wrist pain!

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Wrist but also something weird that happens in my brain where I feel I visually become disconnected from the screen and just doing a mindless repetitious task to the point where my vision actually becomes blurry. I have quickly look away from the screen and focus on something else in the room to anchor myself to reality. Happened when I grinded HFC too. Felt horrible and needed a wurm break afterwards. 

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16 hours ago, elentari said:

Wrist but also something weird that happens in my brain where I feel I visually become disconnected from the screen and just doing a mindless repetitious task to the point where my vision actually becomes blurry. I have quickly look away from the screen and focus on something else in the room to anchor myself to reality. Happened when I grinded HFC too. Felt horrible and needed a wurm break afterwards. 

And this is a thing that quite a few old grindy games suffered from where it causes players to experience things like this due to certain easy to repeat tasks having to be done thousands of times

It does not make for great gameplay but sadly enough it is what we have :(

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It could always be improved with a better system than "drag and drop". At this point I feel that it's just sacrificing your mental health to make coffee in game, which shouldn't be a mechanic in any game period. 

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3 hours ago, elentari said:

It could always be improved with a better system than "drag and drop". At this point I feel that it's just sacrificing your mental health to make coffee in game, which shouldn't be a mechanic in any game period. 

Can you combine x amount of green coffee beans and bake them at once?

If so, it fixes the need to bake hundreds/thousands in separate containers, as long dumping baked 1 big bean turns into equivalent weight/quantity of regular beans in crate/fsb later.

 

You trade skillgain for production, which seems reasonable..

 

Panfilling on it's own is another mess that should be addressed in a different thread in town square / suggestion maybe, among other things that have similar wogical un-fun mechanics and returns that do or don't make you do them for the results.

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3 hours ago, Finnn said:

You trade skillgain for production, which seems reasonable..

 

That could be a great mechanic really. 

 

If you wanna gain skill you do it the hard way. If you want just output, you can get the easy way but no skill. 

 

And no, you can't combine unroasted coffee beans right now. This is part of the issue. It's just another mind numbing mechanic and I doubt any sane person would say otherwise :)) 

Edited by elentari

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i think this system is great the way it is, is it perfect? no

but as a casual player its great to be able to burn my weekly sleep bonus and then do casual pvp if its available. 

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50 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

i think this system is great the way it is, is it perfect? no

but as a casual player its great to be able to burn my weekly sleep bonus and then do casual pvp if its available. 

Could not agree more with this

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