Keenan

Caffeine Changes

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Hello,

This is the list of upcoming changes to caffeine and related items. We will review replies to this thread and may adjust functionality further.

One thing to keep in mind about caffeine is that it is designed to provide a boost for casual players. We understand that it takes quite a bit of effort to make these drinks, but this is by design and creates a market for caffeinated beverages. 

 

Caffeine Changes:

  • Fatigue usage will no longer be part of the caffeine system.
    • To balance the removal of fatigue, the following mechanic will be introduced:
    • Through using caffeine, over the course of about 5 hours (depending on caffeine level), you will build up intoxication.
    • At 100% intoxication, caffeine will stop being effective.
    • Caffeine intoxication will decay linearly over the course of about 5 days.
    • Once caffeine intoxication decays below 100%, caffeine will once again be effective.
    • Intoxication will only build up while sleep bonus is active.
    • This mechanic will be represented by an effect and status icon.
  • Caffeine’s bonus will no longer affect meditation and lockpicking.
    • This change is due to the ability to quickly toggle sleep bonus at the end of a timed action, which evades the intoxication mechanic.
  • Decrease the amount of liquid needing to be drunk to get an effect from caffeine.
    • Increase the amount of caffeine provided by each type of drink.
    • Increase the caffeine hold timer provided by each type of drink.
      • The “hold timer” is the duration of the caffeine buff before the power begins to decay.
  • (Already live) Disallow sipping small amounts of caffeine to refresh timers.
  • (Already live) Ensure that smaller sips do not overwrite the caffeine hold timer.

 

Caffeinated Beverage Changes:

  • Caffeinated drinks will now bypass the water bar like alcohol does.
    • As a result of this change, they will no longer provide temporary affinities. (This is currently in discussion.)
  • Optional ingredients can be added to teas and coffees, such as milk, cream, spice, and sugar.

 

Miscellaneous Changes:

  • Increased volume of teapot and coffee pot.
  • Old tea recipes can now be made in a teapot.
  • Fixed the difficulty of pottery planters for tea, coffee, and cacao.
  • Renamed legacy camellia to camellia flowers.
  • Renamed legacy camellia tea recipe to camellia flower tea to avoid confusion.
  • Added a roasted state to cocoa beans.

 

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In general, adore all these changes. The meditation one is going to be a sore point for some players I bet, given how widely people dislike the current state of meditation and how often you get skill in it.

 

34 minutes ago, Keenan said:
  • Decrease the amount of liquid needing to be drunk to get an effect from caffeine.
    • Increase the amount of caffeine provided by each type of drink.
    • Increase the caffeine hold timer provided by each type of drink.
      • The “hold timer” is the duration of the caffeine buff before the power begins to decay.

Any chance we can get some figures and/or timers for these? I'd think boosting the hold timer and the amount of caffeine provided by each drink is already enough.

 

34 minutes ago, Keenan said:

As a result of this change, they will no longer provide temporary affinities. (This is currently in discussion.)

Kinda seems pointless honestly, unless the ability to add these new ingredients suddenly meant we'd be able to gain insane timers (which is unlikely) it seems hardly worth the effort of bouncing the idea back and forth. Very high QL kahvesi only gave a timer of a few seconds, I haven't tried black coffee or any of the teas but I doubt they'd be different in that regard, unless we can add every milk, cream and spices, ground or not.

 

34 minutes ago, Keenan said:

Fixed the difficulty of pottery planters for tea, coffee, and cacao.

I'd like some clarity on this. Was picking these herbs in planters harder than other herbs or lower than other herbs? I wasn't even aware some herbs were harder than others.

 

Otherwise, sad to see Kahvesi can't be made in ovens now. Oh well.

Edited by Madnath
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Time to get ready to flex that spreadsheet

 

I've got a rare coffee pot (clay) asking if those volume changes will be retroactive

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im wholly impressed with the rethinking here. Lacking some detail but my initial thoughts are this is a good balance.

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Agreed, these changes are ideal so far - very curious as to what amounts of caffeine are needed now to get max power. . .but great job Keenan!

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I really like most of these changes but I do not think you need to remove the temporary affinity from Tea, Coffee and Cacao items (they're really not that long), anymore than you needs to remove it from alcohol. The temporary affinities provided by alcohol just needs to be rebalanced so that we can achieve all the affinities with alcohol/tea/coffee/cocoa as do those recipes. I do still have issue with alcohol's insane timers  (I refer to the 42 hour (90+ql) affinity unfermented moonshine of course) which is the absolute least work compared to a barrel of actual fermented and or distilled alcohol that at the same quality only manages 2-3 hours for over a week of work/waiting. Please give us a bone here!

 

Some questions!

 

Will we be able to make Tea and coffee in pottery bowls or cauldrons like we could with the old tea recipes?

 

Will herb tea, mint tea and spearmint tea be able to be made in a teapot? And will these kinds of teas receive the same treatment as camilla flower tea?

 

Will oleander tea still be a thing and will oleander be getting a update on it's namesake?

 

Will we be able to make tea with roses, as that is an actual kind of tea but not available ingame as of yet?

 

Will Camilla flower tea be allowed to add spices and cream? as currently neither is part of it's recipe...

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  • Caffeine’s bonus will no longer affect meditation and lockpicking.
    • This change is due to the ability to quickly toggle sleep bonus at the end of a timed action, which evades the intoxication mechanic.

This completely kills the utility of caffeine +100% skillgain for meditation.... can we expect some kind of less rng with skillgains when we meditate or something... making it easier to not just meditate and pray we get a tick every 30min/3h, caffeine was at least giving hope for 2x skilltick if such happens to roll.. this content update will kill the bonus.

 

I am concerned about that 5day decay for 100 caffeine.. and no way to lower it, else intoxication doesn't seem too bad... but the 5-7h of sb that players have.. actually work as a bit more with ccfp, if that bug with faster consumption of sb because of ccfp was fixed;

 

still..  the way I read this is.. lets imagine.. the player isn't pay2win-ing, buying sleep powders etc.. just having 5 or 7 hours of sb stored:

Quote
  • Through using caffeine, over the course of about 5 hours (depending on caffeine level), you will build up intoxication.
Quote

Fats – High bar increases favour regeneration, and reduces drain on sleep bonus.

the fats from ccfp will make that 5 or 7 hours to actually be a bit more... meaning... using all in 1 day to pickup global cast for example.. or getting 1-3 hours of sb through missions or s-powders.. can easily lead into 5day coma and inability to play.

That is still "fine"... as this only affects extra gains and sb burnrate at 100% intoxication.. but it's kind of easy to reach it every once in a while and with 5days decay and no way to work to lower it.. it seems to be 20% per 24hours and 20% intoxication gained for 1hour irl gameplay(2hours sb used at 2x sb burn rate)

It remains a high risk skill but that's only for super good gains.. over normal sb.

 

So.. lets go back to meditation.. is that really necessary?

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At first glance, I am liking these changes and I can't wait to try it out to see how it feels.

 

I as well would like to know some numbers. For example, the 5h to get to full toxicity, is that with full caffeine and will scale to be longer if you use less than full caffeine?

 

Also, will toxicity decay in ticks? If so, how often will those ticks occur. For example, will it be once a day you get a 20% chunk removed from toxicity, or will the decay be more continuous throughout the day?


 

31 minutes ago, Madnath said:

I'd like some clarity on this. Was picking these herbs in planters harder than other herbs or lower than other herbs? I wasn't even aware some herbs were harder than others

 

It seem to me that picking coffee, tea and cacao from planters was very low difficulty as they would come out a few points above my skill and only rarely give a skill tick.

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1 hour ago, Keenan said:
  • Caffeine’s bonus will no longer affect meditation and lockpicking.
    • This change is due to the ability to quickly toggle sleep bonus at the end of a timed action, which evades the intoxication mechanic.
  •  

can do that with every skill in the game, just wound yourself to 30s timers then can do 1/10 skillchecks like that to get ~40% more skillgain while ignoring downsides of new system, if anything fatigue is a much worse handicap. both of those skills are mediocre to grind even with the extra skillgain anyway lol

 

any reason why its changed off nuking fatigue?

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3 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

 

can do that with every skill in the game, just wound yourself to 30s timers then can do 1/10 skillchecks like that to get ~40% more skillgain while ignoring downsides of new system, if anything fatigue is a much worse handicap. both of those skills are mediocre to grind even with the extra skillgain anyway lol

 

 

Either I misunderstand this or with the limitation that you can only turn SB on every 5 minutes, you've created the most painful (if efficient) grind possible

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but.. who cares.. it's meditation... it's grind to 90.. and then just for kicks gain extra ranks.... I've never seen somebody complain for the 90 medi ability usage in pvp or pve...

 

PoK abilities are dead.. with the traders.. any rework on that? Get-Info is useless and been that way for a WHILE

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Huge window of opportunities introduced then... This just seems different and way less useful than before.

 

Lockpicking doesnt work like meditation. You keep going till u get a skill tick, can easily use a few hrs sb in a day. Can't abuse caffeine with it more than anything else except there's no fatigue. No reason to add this.

 

Meditation was always a win-more for veterans. Which always seemed silly in a game like Wurm. Super nerds already have high meditation or will get it any way. Keep caffeine affecting these to make it actually help casual players...

 

For someone that plays PVP on a relatively new server I'd hate to see such a huge window of opportunity introduced (meaning changing all of caffeine this way). I'd rather keep it the way it is except of course fix the QOL things like thirst bar. Otherwise caffeine will have just worked to put newer players way behind lol.

Edited by Joemog
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43 minutes ago, Finnn said:

 

PoK abilities are dead.. with the traders.. any rework on that? Get-Info is useless and been that way for a WHILE

I too believe that a bonus 25% skill gain (boosted to a bonus 100% with caffeine) is the sign of a dead path, because I can't use a skill that was already useless with the power of simple math

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21 minutes ago, Archaed said:

I too believe that a bonus 25% skill gain (boosted to a bonus 100% with caffeine) is the sign of a dead path, because I can't use a skill that was already useless with the power of simple math

blah blah.. like path of power with +30 stamina skill level bonus on top of w/e player have is not hyper op insane buff, etc.. with the other paths..

 

get-info for path of knowledge had purpose.. now and for a long time now.. have absolutely none

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2 hours ago, Goldfinch said:

Agreed, these changes are ideal so far - very curious as to what amounts of caffeine are needed now to get max power. . .but great job Keenan!

+1

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get-info has been responsible for a lot of advancements in my unique kiting methods. While I agree that it could use a little love (3 uses per day, say?) I'm pretty sure of two things:

One, PoK is still the most-used path.

Two, this falls well outside the scope of caffeine changes, and should be taken to its own suggestion thread

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6 hours ago, Keenan said:

 

One thing to keep in mind about caffeine is that it is designed to provide a boost for casual players.

 


I disagree with removing caffeine bonus while meditating because people still have to wait between levels.

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Yeah, removing affect on meditation and lockpicking is painfull one and maybe to harsh. Is that really necessary? Those skills alredy have amount of ticks per day and time between tick constraints, boost from coffein is very welcomed there, who cares if it doesnt add much to intoxication in that unique case as they are unique skills..Maybe just add fixed small amount of intoxication upon finishing action for those skills?

Also would like to be able to use ibriks in ovens, or atleast allow campfire to made inside, its annoying to be forced to get out of your kitchen to be able to cook some kahvesi.

For the affinities of cafeinated drinks like others said, kinda pointless as those affinities are far from usefull, don't sea reason for removing them, but also don't care.

Curios about consenquences of thes changes. Will that mean that you could sip tea to gain coffein power to close to 100 and then take one sip of kahvesi to get maximum timer? Would like to see some numbers on those timers and powers.

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First, many thanks, also for the other additions. The changes are looking interesting and sensible altogether. Indeed the removal of the advantages especially for meditating are regrettable, and for lockpicking I just fail to see much of the point as providing full coffee every 10 minutes over the whole playtime would have been crazy with the recent state, and lead to 100% intoxication soon, so was and is covered by the existing balancing mechanisms. As to meditating, it may be understandable that the opportunity to just halve the meditation grind is withdrawn. But please think about improvements of meditating in the future (not for me, I am close to 91 skill and not really grinding towards 99, ok during the coming decade :) ).

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I would also like to say that tea coversion mechanics are sometimes very annoying, for example you can't fill massive batch of teal leaves into pans and roasting dishes to turn them into yellow tea cause of risk that they will become oolong tea which renders them usless for grinding beverages with them.. they should maybe convert when left just in specific containers like barrels instead of all containers so we get better control when the tea leaves turn

In general whole tea part is very badly designed as it's completly useless against coffe/cocoa and gives no initiative whatsoever to be planted.

Edited by kochinac
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  • Caffeine’s bonus will no longer affect meditation and lockpicking.
    • This change is due to the ability to quickly toggle sleep bonus at the end of a timed action, which evades the intoxication mechanic.


if Meditation is sorted out every time because of the ability to toggle SB on at the very end, however stopped that function then and make it so SB needs to be on before the skill starts for it to work. 

I know this will hurt the feelings of many as well, since they then need to use 2min SB instead of 5 seconds, but honestly activating it 5 sec before it ends seems more like a bug to me, and if it means we can use caffeine bonus on top, then i would gladly saccrifice 2 min SB for my meditation.  

As mentioned so many places, the meditation ticks are terrible, i have gone a full days of meditations with 0-1 tick and im only in the late 50s, so anything to gain a bit more out of those rare ticks is a bonus in my eyes 😛 

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26 minutes ago, denully said:


if Meditation is sorted out every time because of the ability to toggle SB on at the very end, however stopped that function then and make it so SB needs to be on before the skill starts for it to work. 

I know this will hurt the feelings of many as well, since they then need to use 2min SB instead of 5 seconds, but honestly activating it 5 sec before it ends seems more like a bug to me, and if it means we can use caffeine bonus on top, then i would gladly saccrifice 2 min SB for my meditation.  

As mentioned so many places, the meditation ticks are terrible, i have gone a full days of meditations with 0-1 tick and im only in the late 50s, so anything to gain a bit more out of those rare ticks is a bonus in my eyes 😛 

Yeah lets make something like meditation even more costly and tedious....  Cmon, some of us are actually trying to have fun, this is so backwards. The solution wouldnt be to make it cost 2m sb no matter what but to make it unaffected by SB and always have the extra skillgain.

 

Just like this caffeine rework is trying to make an otherwise fun mechanic too tedious to be useful and instead royally ###### over new people who didnt get to use it, especially during skiller week etc. instead of just adding a few QOL

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so you changed it to make it even worse for casual players and better for grinders. now this is just another bonus for player who already did 17 things to maximize efficiency to use and nobody else. the only good thing about it was the use of fatigue, now you just lose nothing from using caffeine as much as posible.

 

if thats what you want it to be then you did it but stop saying that this is for casual players, it is the opposite.

Edited by Tpikol
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I want to contradict somewhat to the complaints about caffeine. In the first place, it was thought and designed to give casual players an edge to sensibly use their usually well filled if overflowing sleep bonus, and get improved skill gain. It was not so much intended to double skill gain for everybody.

 

Of course (and I am not chiding them/us for) the experienced playerhood soon explored and grabbed the opportunity which led to the nerf where the waterfill posed the strongest restriction.

 

As to the recent changes, I am not sure about the flaws and strenghts, just want to try them out, and listen to others' experiences. The meditation restriction seems bit harsh, the lockpicking one just dysfunctional, but so what.

 

Having removed fatigue as a balancing method seems a good move to me. Fatigue was stupid from the beginning imho, a failing attempt to shift the work of dealing with macroers to algorithms, that way punishing ordinary grinding players for rulebreakers' and cheaters' behaviour. As a number of other stupid "anti macro measures" it completely misses the point.

 

Macroing is illegal and bannable. It needs to be controlled by GM surveillance, violators identified soon and punished swiftly so that cheating appears as a method of suicide by GM rather than one getting advantages. Every "automatizing" (other than server side surveillance tacitly done in background and visible to GM and devs only) is wrong and evil.

 

Fatigue should be abolished once adequate replacement for Wisdom of Vynora is found, tested, and implemented. Having fatigue controlling caffeine meant it would have been cemented forever. Changing that opens the chance to get rid of it.

 

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Most of the changes seem to move in the good direction to me. Of course actual numbers will decide but let's see.

I'm also with those who don't like meditation and lockpicking being expelled from the benefits. Meditation would need a good rework as currently it is one of the biggest source of disappointment. Moving the rug (or relog every time), keeping track of time, seeing failing ticks most of the time are really annoying. I did the grind already on all my toons that needed it but why to make it equally insane for others?

Lockpicking is usually using more SB as you generally try again and again until a skilltick happens - and for making the PVP field more level it is not that bad that the skill can be grinded better. Picking locks are actually one of the most exciting aspects of PVP for me especially when done in actually dangerous situations.

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