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Keenan

Caffeine Feedback

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Was it really all that bad way it was? I mean your not really saving anything but time since you burn SB faster as you use caffiene. Even if you  could stay hyped up on caffiene 24/7 and had the SB always available what would take 6 months to skill up could be done in 3 months. Since you only get a limited amount of SB each hour your asleep in your bed even thats not possible unless spend enormous amounts of silver buying SB potions. How long does it take being in bed to gain 5 hours of SB? I just dont see the problem being able to occasionally use up 5 hours of SB in 2 1/2 hours and save couple hours of skilling.

 

What am I missing that makes it where have to nerf coffee use to where isnt worth the bother/cost?

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Well I think the change was necessary and expected. Still the extent of the nerf is over the top imho.

 

In fact it is bit absurd to drink coffee from a reed pen. On the other hand, 200g of turkish kahvesi would be a safe way towards heart attacks, ulcera etc. The ordinary kahvesi mug is rather in the 20ml range: OIP.eAJ_SJLyhMyYwIwRYH_QvQAAAA?w=205&h=2

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I have been enjoying the caffeine skill boost on days I cant play as much before this patch, but I will say, I don`t like having to constantly watch and worry about my water bar being low enough. I might be slightly OCD:) but I like to keep my water full. Vorticella`s idea about drinking coffee causing dehydration sounds amazing to me. It would add to the RP element as well. Just like in real life, restaurants often serve a complimentary water when ordering coffee.

 

As for the power, I think there could be an option to only get half power or full power, or even a drop down or something to select the power, to allow players to decide how much of a boost they want, without having to drink that many times.

 

Changing the 1g sip was needed, because the way it was, after you made lets say a barrel of coffee, there would "never" have been any need to make more.

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4 hours ago, Glynflorel said:

Please consider reintroducing the 1g sip mechanic while you do the rework, as currently I believe the coffee mechanic is not really accessible to casuals anymore. 

 

Otherwise lots of good suggestions by other users on how to improve the system that I hope they will post here :)

 

From my own perspective, I'd remove the power mechanic (fix it at 2x whenever the caffeine buff is active), and just have duration be a factor of type and quality, with the maximum of the range being much higher than it is currently, so that a single cup of high quality kahvesi would be enough to let anyone burn away an entire 6 hours of stored-up sleep bonus. If you leave in the fatigue penalty this should be enough to make the mechanic targeted towards casuals over hardcore grinders.

I am on the fence here about removing power mechanic. It would be a low hanging fruit for sure to fix it but it wouldn't really feel satisfying to me personally.

 

On top of this, coffee isn't really accessible to the casual player anyway without buying it. From my own experience the setup for caffeine is bordering the obscene. You need to forage for a kind of caffeine. If you're like me and didn't start to find coffee beans until around 35 foraging you're not getting anywhere with it.

 

Adding to this, roasting a coffee bean is 50 difficulty, and cooking coffee related items from it is 50-70 difficulty Great for me as a beverage maker to grind my skill on (finally) but it leaves some problems as I'll discuss below.

 

4 hours ago, Ajala said:

There are currently about a dozen caffeinated beverages, and there's only any point making one of them.

Absolutely right here.

 

The old recipes for tea do still provide a caffeine buff which makes those more accessible but the power is pathetic. a 90ql cup of herb tea still only provides 1 power, and a 27m buff. Kahvesi was the only beverage worth making. I have over 1k tea leaves sitting in my fsb right now, tons of coffee beans and yet, I only make Kahvesi. In ancient times beverages and brews had so many more uses and it all depended on the skill of the brewer. I don't know about you but I don't go to a weaponsmith or an armourer to make my coffee, I go to a person skilled in beverages which until this update was extremely hard to raise.

 

 

3 hours ago, Stanlee said:

And I haven't even gotten into fortified coffee yet, if alcohol carries over that has interesting applications for creation grinds.

Sadly the alcoholic effects do not transfer over. I was hopeful but it made me really sad.

 

Coffee, Tea, Caffeine in general feels wrong because it's not accessible to casual players, no more than a 90ql weapon is accessible to a casual player. The caffeine you made work so a player could enjoy the effects is far too far out of reach for anyone without at least one beverages title, the timers built on this caffeine have to be micromanaged, the power has to be micromanaged and your water bar being full ends your grind. If we're making caffeine accessible to everyone, you did it wrong.

The suggested fix for me is this.
Make the power of the caffeine based (same for alcohol) on the quality of the drink. Why would a 90ql pot of coffee only give 1 caffeine per sip when the same pot of coffee at 10ql would do the same thing.

Add more ingredient possibilities for beverages in general. Have complexity play a role in the timers for our caffeine buff, same for alcohol.

The amount needed to drink definitely shouldn't be 1g, thats only working right now because the system is broken. As it sits now, its unsustainable any other way.

Let us drink it regardless of water level. You already do this with alcohol.

As others have said, let us drink the whole amount needed to hit 100 power in one go, and have the timer be increased so it's not managing it to no end.

 

Also, does it bother anyone else coffee cherries are .05kgs and when you make coffee beans you have .10kgs?

 

Please, Take a look at beverages, and water as a whole. Caffeine is just the head of a problem for a skill that has needed to be fixed for a very long time.

 

 

Edited by Blacklotus

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I don't agree to that criticism. Sure, bevs became ways easier, and I know from what I am speaking, having had bevs at 92.10 before the coffee patch. Yet I cannot see that to be bad at all. Still it is some effort to grind up. And the way I got my skill up is nothing I want others to do (unless they like to).

 

As to different beverages, yes, there may be a more intense and general overhaul some time. This would also have to cover the connection between beverages and water level. Different to Selenne I use to keep my water level low most times for purposes of stamina management. Of alcoholics only booze makes sense for me as it does not touch the water level.

 

The caffeine idea is and was a good thing. As to tea and cacao related beverages some adjustments may be necessary to render them more attractive. But not everything must fit into minmax metas.

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Caffeine looks to me like a poorly thought out feature in general.

 

It reads like a mechanic that not only increases the gap between experienced and newer players, but also increases the rate at which that gap widens. 

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10 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I don't agree to that criticism. Sure, bevs became ways easier, and I know from what I am speaking, having had bevs at 92.10 before the coffee patch. Yet I cannot see that to be bad at all. Still it is some effort to grind up. And the way I got my skill up is nothing I want others to do (unless they like to).

 

As to different beverages, yes, there may be a more intense and general overhaul some time. This would also have to cover the connection between beverages and water level. Different to Selenne I use to keep my water level low most times for purposes of stamina management. Of alcoholics only booze makes sense for me as it does not touch the water level.

 

The caffeine idea is and was a good thing. As to tea and cacao related beverages some adjustments may be necessary to render them more attractive. But not everything must fit into minmax metas.

Now isn't the time for pleasant words. It's definitely harsh criticism, but at the end of the day this is a game all about numbers. Either the beverages have to be useful to their intended purpose which at the moment they're not. I agree, caffeine was a good idea, Alcohol is a good idea, I love the skill, I don't care about the minmax meta. I want to be able to make tea and have it be just as useful as if I made coffee.

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And I disagree again. While quite some of the game is about numbers, not all is. I don't disagree because the criticism is harsh but because it is wrong.

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We could possibly make caffeine lvl based on how many beans go into the coffee and increase difficulty exponentially as more beans go in. Thus achieving a 100 caffeine 30 min timer that doesn't cap out your water would be very hard but the the base of the feature could be balanced to still be accessible to everyone.

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2 hours ago, Jaz said:

All that caffeine stuff was aimed to the players who play exactly that way (who have quite a little time or patience to grind heavy) as it seems and the mechanics work exactly well towards it - . Do not dry fatigue to 0 (spell effects warn you well enough now) and also hunting and/or fight related grinding etc. uses no fatigue at all. The 1g sips were needed to be tweaked but alongside the water bar filling and the unneeded tedium of ten sips for full effect needs to be addressed.

the "greatest idea" to cast a ros at 8pm on sunday.. leaves not much time to  burn 5+5hours of sleep bonus, so 2x-4x caffeine it is.. then 2-3 days offline it is

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I agree that the 1g sips was not balanced right. The problem was that 1 bean produced 200g of kahvesi which gave 200 sips. Considering the rate at which we can acquire beans, it would not be long before we had unlimited caffeine. 

 

As stated above, the problem now is that by forcing 200g sips, we can no longer obtain 100 power without a near empty water bar. I tried today to use caffeine for a skill grind but it seems after the update it is not possible. I agree with those who have suggested to make coffee/tea/etc the same as alcohol where we can drink it even when our water bar is full. This would bring things to a balance where we would be using a reasonable amount of coffee, requiring us to continue to plant and harvest beans at a reasonable rate. As well, it would allow us to easily keep the caffeine bonus up when we need it for the skill grind as long as we have the caffeine to drink.

 

PS I noticed that a 1g sip is all that is needed to get the 10min sleep bonus upon login still

 

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I think in RL if we had to drink this much coffee to get any effect we would all be running to the loo.

 

I suggest caffeine tablets. 

  • You boil a big container of tea/coffee or whatever of any QL until it goes dry (like boiling salt) and produces 1 caffeine powder and any remaining liquid. 
  • You press the powder  into a tablet
  • The resulting tablets can be stored in an FSB and do not decay in inventory. 
  • The tablet provides enough caffeine for 1 full power use.  
  • You always take just one tablet so you always take just enough.
  • They do NOT affect your water bar when you take them.

How it works:

  • Strong types of tea, cocoa or coffee such as Kahvesi and higher QLs of drinks contain higher 'caffeine points'. (e.g Drink_Type_Modifier * Drink_QL(Curve) ) 
  • You need a certain number of caffeine 'points' in your boiling liquid (e.g Drink_Type_Modifier * Drink_QL(Curve) * Quantity) in order to produce a dried powder.  So strong Kahvesi could be boiled in a small bowl, whereas you might need a cauldron of weak herbal tea to produce the powder.  
  • Any extra tea/coffee stays in the pot unused, for you to add to and boil up again later.

Benefits:

  • No liquid is wasted. Unused liquid can be reused
  • The water bar does not need to fill.
  • The right dose is taken
  • Caffeine doses can be stored and carried easily
  • Better QL drinks require less resources
  • Stronger drinks require less resources
  • It is possible for low skilled players to create the tablets with the weakest low ql drinks in a large enough container
  • Progression is maintained for gardeners and cooks

Negatives:

  • A bit more work to produce the tablets
  • New players with low skills would have to forage longer for more resources

Just an idea. :) 

Edited by Muse
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I am by no means an expert. Have spent a lot of time playing any different kinds of games and blah blah blah. That stuff really does not matter much

 

I really enjoyed the coffee (generalizing all of it) from a grinding ideal. 
I am unsure how much back end is done with tracking and logs so I am just going to throw out some ideas based of being able to copy and paste code/mechanics that I know is all ready in the game

So we have skills with limited skill gain ticks like Meditation and Faith. So that is a system we can use.
We have a system that can limit and change how much goes into something.
We have a system that limits what can go into something

When I think from a real life stand point (I know mistake) We generally drink coffee/tea from coffee cups. Why not make it require you to use a coffee cup/mug to get the buff (full buff,  lets throw the power away)
By taking and giving it a static buff, it makes it newbie friendly (or more newbie friendly as they only need to make and drink one cup of any to get the full buff)

Now if we make the buff static That opens up being able to use the QL of the coffee time for something else.  How about the QL of the coffee giving a fully randomized affinity (QL = longer time)
Or if it is possible to add to a timer, IE eating two affinity foods back to back. Let the QL of the coffee increase the timer of the affinity gained from the last food you ate (if it is tracked)

Caffeine is dehydrating; instead of it using water. Add a debuff. The more you drink you more dehydrated you get. (Would you want to drink coffee until you have a debuff of 50 hours of increased water consumption?)
When debuffed with dehydrating your water meter goes down at a much faster pace, The more coffee you drink. The more often you need to drink to keep your skill ticks at a decent level
Since you don't gain skill when your stamina is 0, you would need to manage how often and how much caffeine you drink.
Each caffeine type would change how it interacts with the debuff.
That would make the others have use

IE
Oolong tea gives 35 power with a 35 power dehydration debuff.
White tea give 45 and 45.  

I don't know I am just rambling. 
Stray thoughts and ideas.
 

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I'm finding a lot of this discussion quite depressing. Any game mechanic designed to facilitate "grinding" isn't really a "game" mechanic at all. This is supposed to be fun, ffs, not a chore.

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Well, I found the caffeine fun indeed, and its facilitating of skill progress (call it grinding or whatever) a nice thing to have, not a must. "Grinding" will be and is done anyway, much of the game is about training different interdependent skills.

 

For example, the coffee etc changes motivated me to raise my gardening which was 78 only, still ongoing project, aiming at 90 now. That motivated me to raise my woodcutting, as my max 82 logs soon hit the ql ceiling of my trellis improving. Beverages offered new opportunities to be raised without chopping thousands of mint and sage before filling hundreds of bowls, I am certainly not sad about.

 

Only the coffee nerf resulted in turning the caffeine buff widely useless as the disruption of my water level management for stamina control in a couple of "grinds" outweighs the gains from caffeine buff at the moment. Here, too, interdependent game mechanics involving farming, foraging, botanizing, ropemaking are playing a role. I do not consider it "chores" in any negative sense that I have to consider this interdependence. Rather it is part of what makes Wurm attractive to me.

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Can we get keybind for pick-seeds to work for coffee cherries and cacao pods?

 

It is not possible to keybind the action for coffee cherries/cacao pods, these are pretty much useless w/o doing this a lot, crush option for tea works fine to keybind with bulk, what the missing keybind does is .. "pain"😩 when one missclicks the "Eat" option...  it leads to "caffeine overdose.." and mostly destroyed nutrition/filled hunger bar.

 

One future QoL could be skipping the pulling out/returning items like this and providing the option for bsb/fsb to be able to pick seeds with some timer maybe.. and dialog window asking to type "YES" or something like that as confirmation to convert coffee cherries to coffee beans, cacao pods to cacao.. wemp to be crushed, sugar beets to sugar.. etc 
It's obviously quite dangerous to missclick, that's where the dialog asking to confirm with a typed text comes to save the day from a mistake and constant pulling things out and dumping back in the same contrainer.

Edited by Finnn
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Another idea is to lower the weight of each bean or the amount of coffee produced by each bean. Maybe 1 bean is 0.05g of coffee. Then allow smaller sips to work. Maybe not 1g sips but possibly 10g sips. This might bring the amounts to a more realistic level. 
 

I feel that it would still need to be able to be drunk at full thirst though.

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4 minutes ago, McGarnicle said:

Another idea is to lower the weight of each bean or the amount of coffee produced by each bean. Maybe 1 bean is 0.05g of coffee. Then allow smaller sips to work. Maybe not 1g sips but possibly 10g sips. This might bring the amounts to a more realistic level. 
 

I feel that it would still need to be able to be drunk at full thirst though.

NO

 

unless you intend to give 50 beans per planter..

--edit

why... you'll need on average 2-3 planters to grind daily.. it's cool little nerf but whoever grinds 24/7 will just pop 5 planters and counter this, whoever sells a barrel of the liquid will need thousands

in a pretty short time.. coffee will be back to "useless" market good, at least with current amounts it is pretty easy to overstock on it, we need rather other fresh and not option.. for which sealing does nothing for it.. that way you'll constantly need some when you grind.. and it could last only few days to a week or so.. wurm day or 2 irl might be realistic.. but with the tiny amounts and picky setups to use this / that cooker it's really annoying to cook coffee.. coffee pot/ibrik/teapot etc.. should all work in all heat sources.. campfire/oven/forge so we can workaround the annoyance, it's not rocket science, it's just a brew after all..

Edited by Finnn

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

NO

 

unless you intend to give 50 beans per planter..

--edit

why... you'll need on average 2-3 planters to grind daily.. it's cool little nerf but whoever grinds 24/7 will just pop 5 planters and counter this, whoever sells a barrel of the liquid will need thousands

in a pretty short time.. coffee will be back to "useless" market good, at least with current amounts it is pretty easy to overstock on it, we need rather other fresh and not option.. for which sealing does nothing for it.. that way you'll constantly need some when you grind.. and it could last only few days to a week or so.. wurm day or 2 irl might be realistic.. but with the tiny amounts and picky setups to use this / that cooker it's really annoying to cook coffee.. coffee pot/ibrik/teapot etc.. should all work in all heat sources.. campfire/oven/forge so we can workaround the annoyance, it's not rocket science, it's just a brew after all..


Maybe you misunderstood. With the numbers I gave, you would need 2 beans to get 10 sips. So you may use 3 beans per day or so. You would need to consume 100g of coffee to get the full buff. Of course, this could be adjusted up or down to balance it. Could be adjusted to  5 beans required for 10 sips for example.


For comparison, with the nerf, currently we need 1 bean per sip. You might need 15 beans per day. In addition, we need to consume 2kg of coffee just to get the full caffeine buff. 
 

 

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5 hours ago, Finnn said:

Can we get keybind for pick-seeds to work for coffee cherries and cacao pods?

 

It is not possible to keybind the action for coffee cherries/cacao pods, these are pretty much useless w/o doing this a lot, crush option for tea works fine to keybind with bulk, what the missing keybind does is .. "pain"😩 when one missclicks the "Eat" option...  it leads to "caffeine overdose.." and mostly destroyed nutrition/filled hunger bar.

 

One future QoL could be skipping the pulling out/returning items like this and providing the option for bsb/fsb to be able to pick seeds with some timer maybe.. and dialog window asking to type "YES" or something like that as confirmation to convert coffee cherries to coffee beans, cacao pods to cacao.. wemp to be crushed, sugar beets to sugar.. etc 
It's obviously quite dangerous to missclick, that's where the dialog asking to confirm with a typed text comes to save the day from a mistake and constant pulling things out and dumping back in the same contrainer.

 

Do we need one? I just right click and do it for the stack I want to do it for, it's really not that bad at all

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So Coffee.... Don't get me wrong as soon as I found out it was 1g I full expected to have coffee nerfed right away, but the new minimum consumption for full effect is 200g (0.2kg) the same as water, this fills 10% of your bar per drink. Some simple math suggest that the only possible way to reach 100 power now is with Kahvesi with a power of 10 and only with a couple hours "preparation" depriving that character of water, requiring it to be logged in and effectively rendering it useless for that time... Great now i have a 100 power timer right? but wait, I have at best 29 minutes before i have to drink again.... how do i drain 10% of my water in that time so I can drink again and maintain the full buff for more then a half an hour? the answer is, you cant. For me I use maybe 5% of my water in that time staying fully active, Ok there may be a few skills that are labor intensive enough but broadly its not enough. Witch means your stuck it a perpetual declining power. By time my water is low enough to drink again the buff has almost completely worn off, now I can drink once again and add 10 power...... So.... 3-4 hours of "prep" for 30 minutes of full grind assuming the user excludes all but the best coffee on the market.....

 

If you have to  put that much work into prepping for the grind, people certainly wont waste there money on anything but the best, effectively killing the market on all others. Additionally the cost per "grind" is a TON higher, before you could build to 100 power, and maintain if for 2.5 hours effectively with a full bar of SB, using (assuming 10 power) 14 drinks over 2.5 hours, now you would use 10 drinks plus the "prep" time for 30 minutes of full bonus. This effectively means to get the same amount of grind time done you would have to consume over 70 drinks instead of 14..... at a rate of 200x more then it started at..... this also requires effectively requires 5 days instead of one, since you would have to stop and get your water back to zero between each 30m grind. What weekend warrior can sit around for even 3 hours "prep" before they grind let alone do it 5 times? Does this not seem like a huge miscalculation? Coffee just went from "OMG amazing" to "why bother" for me. I'm sure we can come up with something more middle grounded.

 

Each suggestion has pro's and con's and are suggested mostly independent of each other. These suggestion do not address Tea's witch I have not messed with at all.

 

Suggestions:

  • Coffee does not tie to water usage. Usage stays at 200g min. (keeps the demand for volume high while allowing for much easier grinding,  this also simplifies the process not requiring measuring out multiple portions to start.)
  • Decrease the minimum for consumption for full effect to 50-100 grams. (allows for 2-4x as much consumption bringing lower power and quality blends back into effectiveness, also keeping the usage at least 50x higher then initially implemented, still requires you to portion out smaller drinks to maintain efficiency)
  • Decrease the amount of water gained by Coffee consumption by 50 to 75%. Usage stays at 200g. (Keeps volume demand high, allows for 2-4x as much consumption bringing lower power and quality blends back into effectiveness, also makes it a poor substitute for carrying water.)
  • Add a new food/drink item that dehydrates and/or increases a player hunger as well. (Decreases water and/or food by up to 3% per minute for 20 minutes based on q? New marketable item, reinforces beverages and or cooking skill further, New Rare Recipe?, New "toxic" product? (Troll Nostril Lining!), Keeping the total drain a bit over half ensures that the prep requires 2 uses minimum based on q, and takes aprox 30-40 minutes to fully drain a player. This allows players to consume it while grinding to reduce there levels enough to drink again at the next window. Maybe its add no carbs to CCFP?)
  • Increase the maximum duration of the Coffee timer and scale it dependent on quality. Usage is reduced to 150g. (maybe 60 minutes max?, Reduces the continued cost of grind slightly, but keeps the initial investment to get to 100 power high. This option still requires "prep" time so I would suggest it in conjunction with the new food/drink outlined above. Allows for lower q blends to reach 100 power still, requires portioning for efficiency. PLEASE add a 150g measurement to the jug!)
  • Increase the decay of water based on the Carbs portion of CCFP, promoting more customized carb free meals to allow for faster water usage. (New marketable Item, Reinforces Cooking, New Rare Recipe?, This could replace the "filler" meal portion of any grind, creating further demand for less used items, requires you to drink more water.)

 

There is also an upward limit on the duration of these burns based on fatigue as well, so even if you ate SP to extend you could only push it for another hour or so with the fatigue multiplier before your out.

 

 - VirusMD

Edited by VirusMD
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hard pass for maintaining more random bars/(de)buffs/spell effects etc.. it's getting pretty wild with water/hunger/stamina/sleep bonus/ccfp/caffeine/fatigue... as it is. 

 

increasing hunger/thirst only forces waiting on some numbers to drop

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@VirusMDpretty much covered my suggestion as well. 

 

My two cents. The last hotfix obviously made going for 100 power caffeine virtually impossible. It basically requires to AFK a lot so your water level goes down or using an alt or friend to repeatedly bash you with a maul so you regurgitate. That is not fun gameplay for anyone. And for the crowd that has little time to play , that's basically a time sink they don't have in the first place so they can benefit from coffee. 

 

Proposals to update the system:

 

1. Make caffeine not tied to water level. You can drink as much as you can but for the buff to work you need 0.2 kg sips. 

2. If we keep caffeine beverages tied to water let us then require smaller sips. Maybe in the 50 g range since realistically 50 g of good ql coffee is quite a lot for the human organism. I usually drink 0.25 kg coffee in the morning to get the caffeine kick 

3. Increase water decay when drinking coffee, as you would dehydrate faster from excessive sweating. (coffee does have that effect on the human body) 

4. Tea is virtually pointless compared to coffee since its only use is just to maintain the buff once you are at 100 power. Perhaps to give tea a use, have it give a different buff besides caffeine that says "well being" or something. The buff could perhaps work to give a buff to Mind logic? Healing gain? Or something. It just seems that compared to coffee, tea is pretty much inconsequential. 

 

I do appreciate the fact you're looking to balance this. At the moment the current system really makes it inordinately difficult to reach 100 power caffeine. 

 

Can you consider reverting to the 1 g sips before we tweak this again? 

 

Edited by elentari

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Still I consider the 200g per sip over the top and counter immersive, destroying any feeling of drinking coffee. In real life, filter coffee mug has 200 to 250 ml, a usual coffee cup 120 to 150ml. whereas the turkish coffee cups have 25 to 50 ml. It is insane to swallow coffee like a cow is drinking water.

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