Keenan

Caffeine Feedback

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We're working on reworking caffeine, and would like some feedback on the system as it stands now. I'll be reserving this space to post our rework details once they are finalized.

 

Until then, let us know your thoughts on the current system.

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Initial thought is that caffeine is completely unusable after the patch. I'm not sure what the intended mechanic is. Are we supposed to be at 0 water and then fill our water bar with it to get 100 power? And we do that 1x per day since your water bar will be too full to keep the buff up?

 

I thought it was more or less fine before, as the extra fatigue use is a huge penalty. I've never come close to using my fatigue before, and burning off a whole bar of sleep bonus on my alt, I actually got within an hour of my fatigue cap. I thought it was great, as a way to quickly use sleep bonus for characters that can't play much.

 

Thinking if I wanted to use caffeine on a consistent basis, I'll have my characters puking FAR more than I would have been prepatch. But it's probably not even worth it, honestly.

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I assume caffeine is mainly intended for casual players who don't spend a lot of time playing, but those same people don't really have the time to make barrels and barrels of caffeine (my 90ql kahvesi is like 10 power per sip lasts for 28m or so, so 2L to get to full power, then a 0.2L sip every 25m, can't imagine what 30-50ql of the non-strongest drinks is like) seems kind of counter-intuitive, the people grinding for hours are using way less liquid/hour than casual players that it's intended for, and they're the ones that would actually have the time to make it and grind, unless caffeine is supposed to be something 90% of the player base should buy on the market or something. Having it fill up power on your first drink and then slowly decrease over the period, with ql and amount drunk both decreasing how fast it goes down, would make more sense for casual players. being able to drink at 99% water like alcohol can would help too (caffeine dehydrates you so doesn't even make sense to fill up your water bar on it)

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As someone who usually has a ton of unused sleep bonus, caffeine has made a huge impact on my game time and I'm enjoying the benefits a lot. I can play much more comfortably in my own play style but still feel like I'm actually making progress with things, so I'm really loving that!

 

As for the water bar issue, I think caffeine drinks should be consumable regardless of thirst level. Especially if the idea is to help people make the most of limited game time. The way it is now, I avoid drinking water at all to make sure I have room for coffee and that feels wrong.

 

I would have expected caffeine to cause dehydration and make the water bar drop faster, and I would like it if it did work that way, even if consuming it was independent of thirst. It could fill the water bar like normal, but then cause a debuff increasing the rate of water drain by a certain amount for the duration of the caffeine effect. The fatigue cost is already there to help prevent people grinding with caffeine all day long. Having to drink more water while under the effect of caffeine would be intuitive and add something much more satisfying to the gameplay than waiting around for the water bar to drain.

 

Edited by Vorticella
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6 minutes ago, Pukaria said:

Initial thought is that caffeine is completely unusable after the patch. I'm not sure what the intended mechanic is. Are we supposed to be at 0 water and then fill our water bar with it to get 100 power? And we do that 1x per day since your water bar will be too full to keep the buff up?

 

I thought it was more or less fine before, as the extra fatigue use is a huge penalty. I've never come close to using my fatigue before, and burning off a whole bar of sleep bonus on my alt, I actually got within an hour of my fatigue cap. I thought it was great, as a way to quickly use sleep bonus for characters that can't play much.

 

Thinking if I wanted to use caffeine on a consistent basis, I'll have my characters puking FAR more than I would have been prepatch. But it's probably not even worth it, honestly.

 

I may consider reverting this change, but at the same time the 1g sip was a bit too good. It should be about 20g now for a decent timer, but an issue has been reported with power decaying which wasn't intended.

 

 

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are the devs aware of how people are using coffe for meditation skillgain?

if you are not a casual player and you dont have much sleep bonus but you want meditation skill: drink coffe, start meditating, 2 seconds before the meditation timers end turn on sleep bonus, turn it off 3 seconds later, repeat 7 times a day. lots of extra meditation skill for a few seconds of consumed fatigue.

 

my suggestion for how to change is keep it simple: make any coffe at any ql give full power , make coffe ignore the water bar and make the timers go up the same way the afinities for food do, the more you drink the longer the timer is without a cap.

Edited by Tpikol
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Please consider reintroducing the 1g sip mechanic while you do the rework, as currently I believe the coffee mechanic is not really accessible to casuals anymore. 

 

Otherwise lots of good suggestions by other users on how to improve the system that I hope they will post here :)

 

From my own perspective, I'd remove the power mechanic (fix it at 2x whenever the caffeine buff is active), and just have duration be a factor of type and quality, with the maximum of the range being much higher than it is currently, so that a single cup of high quality kahvesi would be enough to let anyone burn away an entire 6 hours of stored-up sleep bonus. If you leave in the fatigue penalty this should be enough to make the mechanic targeted towards casuals over hardcore grinders.

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1 minute ago, Keenan said:

 

I may consider reverting this change, but at the same time the 1g sip was a bit too good. It should be about 20g now for a decent timer, but an issue has been reported with power decaying which wasn't intended.

 

 

 

I can certainly agree with increasing the amount needed to consume. But also, yes, right now we are getting 2 minutes out of a 20g sip of 75 ql kahvesi, and it is only giving 1 Power. I already had some caffeine effect on as I went to bed for the server restart, and I had trouble getting it to full power even with half my water bar empty, because the buff was just decaying soooo rapidly.

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Revert the change pls, it's unusual for me now. I don't have the time or money to get that much coffee (or the skills).

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11 minutes ago, Keenan said:

 

I may consider reverting this change, but at the same time the 1g sip was a bit too good. It should be about 20g now for a decent timer, but an issue has been reported with power decaying which wasn't intended.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Pukaria said:

 

I can certainly agree with increasing the amount needed to consume. But also, yes, right now we are getting 2 minutes out of a 20g sip of 75 ql kahvesi, and it is only giving 1 Power. I already had some caffeine effect on as I went to bed for the server restart, and I had trouble getting it to full power even with half my water bar empty, because the buff was just decaying soooo rapidly.

 

20g sounds fair to me, but I think it may be set to 200g currently? I had a similar experience as Pukaria earlier where I drank the remainder of a flask (which had at least 100g left) and I got a little over 6 power and about half the expected timer out of it.

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20g for 100 power seems fair to me. That's one coffee bean turned into kahvesi. People should be able to get one bean per day by foraging or pick one planter. 

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Tbh I'd be fine with it consuming a full 1kg in one action, just independent of water level. 

 

Currently the work to get to full power doesn't match how the game handles water and stamina 

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The whole dragging and sipping thing seems a bit unescesarry and tedious.

Just let us right click the liquid and select amount and have it go to full power.

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yeah i don't have problem with amount of coffie needed, if we could just sip it after water bar is full that would do the job. Nor do i have problem with using fatigue. This update was wonderfull for me and made me enjoy game more as i could compress my grinding and go and do some other stuff like ridding around exploring and hunting that i would not otherwise do, also for the first time in ages i manage to spend sb not feeling its going to waste

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So, first with the information of what the changes did (these numbers are derived and estimates):

 

Caffeine Power is reduced by the size of the sip, and mediated by drink type. Numbers we're used to are balanced around a full 200g sip, anything less is divided by that (i.e. 200g kahvesi gave 10, 20g gives 1). Subsequent sips add their power.

Caffeine Duration is reduced by the size of the sip, and mediated by QL. Numbers we're used to are balanced around a full 200g sip, anything less is divided by that (i.e. 200g 100QL gave 30 minutes, 20g gives 3 minutes). Subsequent sips override the timer, even if the new timer would be shorter. (so careful, if your cup has 401g of coffee, you could lose the buff near immediately!)

 

This introduces fun new problems, like the fact that kahvesi will gladly restore over 6% water per 200 - this means you need to drain 60% of your water somehow to get to max coffee power, and sustaining that power is a whole new problem. For a system designed for players without much time, this is extremely odd, and I strongly recommend making caffeine like alcohol - you can drink at full water - to avoid needing an alt to make you puke or waiting hours for water to drain.

 

As a note for quantity balancing, the current numbers mean you need approximately 10 beans to get to full power, and one bean every ~30 minutes to keep it. I have no suggestions one way or the other there, only that it's checked that those numbers align with the design intent of caffeine. Especially since, for a player with 1 hour a day trying to burn off an RoS, this could take upward of 40 beans (~75% of which going to maxing caffeine power).

 

Edit: All in all I support the move to make 1 bean insufficient for a hundred-hour grind, but worry about the general usability post-update. That said, it seems to be just a few tweaks away from working well.

Edited by Stanlee
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There are currently about a dozen caffeinated beverages, and there's only any point making one of them.

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1 minute ago, Ajala said:

There are currently about a dozen caffeinated beverages, and there's only any point making one of them.

 

This couldn't be much further from the truth: while Kahvesi offers the most caffeine per sip, (of the ones I've tested) cafe au lait offers the most caffeine per bean.

Meanwhile any of the other drinks can be used to refresh duration, saving precious coffee beans!

And I haven't even gotten into fortified coffee yet, if alcohol carries over that has interesting applications for creation grinds.

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2 minutes ago, Stanlee said:

 

This couldn't be much further from the truth: while Kahvesi offers the most caffeine per sip, (of the ones I've tested) cafe au lait offers the most caffeine per bean.

Meanwhile any of the other drinks can be used to refresh duration, saving precious coffee beans!

And I haven't even gotten into fortified coffee yet, if alcohol carries over that has interesting applications for creation grinds.

 

As somebody gathering 500 beans per day, I guess bean scarcity never occurred to me.

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Please considering making us able to drink while at full thirst in the mean time while you're debating how to balance things.

That'd make the mechanic kind of usable in the mean time. At least for some people.

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5 minutes ago, Borstaskor said:

Please considering making us able to drink while at full thirst in the mean time while you're debating how to balance things.

That'd make the mechanic kind of usable in the mean time. At least for some people.

indeed, right now you need to drink so much coffee to get anything out of it, that you almost need to be 100% out of water to reach 100%

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For my 2 cents. Drinking coffee should not effect water. Drink at full and give no water at empty. 

 

First sip gives max power, size of "sip" based on strength and maybe ql.  So low quality works fine but you just need more. Like drinking watered down coffee. Double duration across all ql levels as a qol as well maybe.

 

After first sip takes more to maintain the power and duration. Similar to heal resist add a debuff that only counts down after caffeine wears off. Maybe a 5 hour? 

 

This let's people with limited play time get a good burst with out needing to be a skilled brewer right or needing tons of coffee if buying. Those who want to maintain it longer can do so but it is more resource intensive. IE your "hardcore" can maintain the buff all day just at a cost.

 

Remove caffeine from tea the diff in power is too big making tea useless as is.  Drinking tea removes caffeine buff so you can start your debuff countdown decaying right away. Maybe speeds up the debuff decay?

 

To give tea more of a use add a soothing buff that when not debuffed from caffeine helps restore fatigue at a slightly higher rate. Not only helps with caffeine but a bandaid for fatigue in general

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I just drank a HUGE amount (1kg + 40g+20g) of Kahvesi 69ql and got 41 power for 8 minutes before was too full to drink anymore and that scenario did virtually nothing for my butchering skill even with SB on - so from too good to too awful - please revert to the original 10 sips x 1g for 100 power - or something usable - atm it is badly nerfed and unusable.

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additionally.. something to workaround fatigue burn rate will be good... idk what is reasonable so not suggestion anything for that atm.. - but playing for 3hours to burn 12h of fatigue and put a character in 2-3days afk/offline coma is not gameplay

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It might be reasonable to reduce the nerf from factor 200 to factor 20, needing a 20g sip for the same effect. In addition, the kahvesi output could be halved, to 100g per ibrik, for more sensible coffee bean consumption.

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19 minutes ago, Finnn said:

 

additionally.. something to workaround fatigue burn rate will be good... idk what is reasonable so not suggestion anything for that atm.. - but playing for 3hours to burn 12h of fatigue and put a character in 2-3days afk/offline coma is not gameplay

All that caffeine stuff was aimed to the players who play exactly that way (who have quite a little time or patience to grind heavy) as it seems and the mechanics work exactly well towards it - . Do not dry fatigue to 0 (spell effects warn you well enough now) and also hunting and/or fight related grinding etc. uses no fatigue at all. The 1g sips were needed to be tweaked but alongside the water bar filling and the unneeded tedium of ten sips for full effect needs to be addressed.

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