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Keridwyn

Branding Rework Required

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Please make animal branding permissions outrank deed leading permissions. This has apparently been a problem for a while...  

 

 

Yesterday one of my citizens wanted to go to the dragon slaying, but discovered his horse was missing. He had left it in a pen attached to his house; branded, saddled, and ready to go. He tracked it down with Manage Animal, inside a locked pasture on a nearby deed. A very nice GM helped retrieve the animal this morning, but informed me that my deed settings allowed this to happen. My citizen has since put locks on his pen.

 

I have "lead animals" permitted in order to sell animals from my merchant. This should not allow my *branded* animals to be taken by all of the Freedom Isles!

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On 2/9/2019 at 4:43 AM, Enki said:

This appears to be unintended.  The Devs are looking into it.

 

A known problem for a while.  This needs to be high on the list of bugs needing urgent fix.

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branded and saddled should override all other perms. no excuse for that to have not been addressed in the last 18 thousand updates.

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So just to clarify. 

 

Lead perms = works with unbranded animals

Branded animals overrides lead perms and ONLY allows people with lead perms ON THE BRANDED ANIMAL

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No, right now lead permissions set on a deed allows anyone to lead the branded (to that deed) animals, on or off deed.

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So here's how the story goes: 

 

Back in 2019 (was not part of the team yet) I had someone warn me of their ability to not only lead but also ride my branded saddled horses from my horse market deed. (which had lead perms open for everyone so they could lead their purchased horses away). This utterly bewildered me, because I had always assumed that a branded and saddled horse was 100% safe no matter what!  It turns out that this assumption was only true for the majority of the explorable world, however not true if your horse just happened to be on land that had the lead perm enabled for "everyone". Not only was this a huge security issue at horse markets, but also at any player event like Impalongs, where lead perms had been turned on to allow participants to leave their horses in grass pens while they enjoyed the event.

 

So, I made that post Keridwyn linked above and the devs actually addressed it immediately

 

The problem is that deed perms override animal perms. So if you set your deed to "lead" for everyone, that overrides any perms on your horse. The reason it's this way (if I remember correctly), is so that if you have a huge farm with hundreds and hundreds of animals, it's much more convenient to be able to set a deed wide permission, rather than having to go to each and every animal and set their permissions separately. So to solve the issue, the devs created an emergency solution: They added a new option called "Deny All" to the perms window so that you could "Deny all" to "Everyone". 

 

Take note: This is NOT turned on by default! You have to go into the branded animal permissions and turn this on manually

 

The system is not perfect, as most players would have no idea that they have to do this to keep their branded horses safe. So it's really good that this topic cropped up again, as this definitely needs a more elegant solution.

 

Permissions.jpg

 

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Quite a serious issue and it is not even apparent totbrh everyday player until such an issue happens to them.

 

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Yeah, and raised several times over the years. When I raised it last year (and closed my animal markets subsequently) I was told this was not a bug but an intended change brought in years ago; I'd love to know why this is the default though and not 'brand overrides deed' as the default with an option in settings to let others lead it on an animal-by-animal basis.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Malena said:

They added a new option called "Deny All" to the perms window so that you could "Deny all" to "Everyone". 

 

Take note: This is NOT turned on by default! You have to go into the branded animal permissions and turn this on manually

 

The system is not perfect, as most players would have no idea that they have to do this to keep their branded horses safe. So it's really good that this topic cropped up again, as this definitely needs a more elegant solution.

 

 

So, this KIND OF addresses the problem, but only for those who have already fallen foul of it and complained and eventually some kind soul like Malena tells about an option to override it.

 

Just turn it on by default and publish the information conspicuously for those who might want to turn it off.

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On 11/8/2021 at 6:21 AM, TheTrickster said:

 

So, this KIND OF addresses the problem, but only for those who have already fallen foul of it and complained and eventually some kind soul like Malena tells about an option to override it.

 

Just turn it on by default and publish the information conspicuously for those who might want to turn it off.

I agree that this should be ON by default and turning it OFF should be the option to move forward with otherwise.

Since Branding has always been "The lock" for animals and since the change was implemented became less so the case with this change.

 

It wouldn't be so frustrating if this were the case with "all locks" and had been for a while, but it isn't. Branding is the "odd one out" in this regard.

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On 11/8/2021 at 3:21 AM, Malena said:

So here's how the story goes: 

 

Back in 2019 (was not part of the team yet) I had someone warn me of their ability to not only lead but also ride my branded saddled horses from my horse market deed. (which had lead perms open for everyone so they could lead their purchased horses away). This utterly bewildered me, because I had always assumed that a branded and saddled horse was 100% safe no matter what!  It turns out that this assumption was only true for the majority of the explorable world, however not true if your horse just happened to be on land that had the lead perm enabled for "everyone". Not only was this a huge security issue at horse markets, but also at any player event like Impalongs, where lead perms had been turned on to allow participants to leave their horses in grass pens while they enjoyed the event.

 

So, I made that post Keridwyn linked above and the devs actually addressed it immediately

 

The problem is that deed perms override animal perms. So if you set your deed to "lead" for everyone, that overrides any perms on your horse. The reason it's this way (if I remember correctly), is so that if you have a huge farm with hundreds and hundreds of animals, it's much more convenient to be able to set a deed wide permission, rather than having to go to each and every animal and set their permissions separately. So to solve the issue, the devs created an emergency solution: They added a new option called "Deny All" to the perms window so that you could "Deny all" to "Everyone". 

 

Take note: This is NOT turned on by default! You have to go into the branded animal permissions and turn this on manually

 

The system is not perfect, as most players would have no idea that they have to do this to keep their branded horses safe. So it's really good that this topic cropped up again, as this definitely needs a more elegant solution.

 

Permissions.jpg

 

Except it isn't more convenient?

Quote

it's much more convenient to be able to set a

deed wide permission, rather than having to go to each and every animal and set their permissions separately.

I don't have "hundreds of animals" at the moment, but I still have near 100 animals and I brand every single creature I breed or obtain. This means I'm having to at the same time of a brand, edit each and every creature's settings on my Deed to avoid any accidental "walk offs" for animals that aren't intended to just be walking off my deed at any point.

 

If I wanted folks to be able to use an animal freely or didn't care what happened to it, I wouldn't bother the time to brand it in the first place. :(

 

Unfortunately I was not aware this change was made years ago and had an animal walk off my deed without my knowing until I came back to do a mass grooming session.

When I tracked down the animal with the "Find Animal" feature, I raised a ticket and was told "Your deed allowed it, we cannot give it back to you" despite my staring at it in someone else's locked pen on the opposite side of the map. Needless to say I was furious that not only was I unaware of this change years ago, but I was met with "Sorry you didn't know, but you're SOL."

Edited by Zera

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This is why I put a lock on everything even though I get called paranoid for it! *sigh*  A definite +1 to the OP!

10 hours ago, Zera said:

Unfortunately I was not aware this change was made years ago and had an animal walk off my deed without my knowing until I came back to do a mass grooming session.

When I tracked down the animal with the "Find Animal" feature, I raised a ticket and was told "Your deed allowed it, we cannot give it back to you" despite my staring at it in someone else's locked pen on the opposite side of the map. Needless to say I was furious that not only was I unaware of this change years ago, but I was met with "Sorry you didn't know, but you're SOL."

 

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Thank you everyone for being vocal about this issue and taking part in the conversation! It has become abundantly clear to the team that this issue needs a better solution ASAP!

 

So, I'm happy to let you all know that the devs are making this a priority!

 

Some of you mentioned that the most obvious solution would be to simply set "Deny All" to be check-marked by default. However there is good reason for why it was not implemented that way to begin with. The permissions system is a very complex one, so fiddling with one thing can easily break another, which may lead to unintended consequences. Whatever solution the devs come up with will require care, time and thorough testing. So I hope you'll all be patient while they try to figure out the best and safest way to solve this.

 

While we wait for that to happen, here's the best way you can protect your animals for now:

1) Check your deed permissions: Manage > Settlement > Manage roles > Edit: Non-citizens and make sure the lead permissions are the way you intended them to be. If you don't have an animal market or are not running an event, it's safest to keep this unchecked. 
2) Make sure that all of your animal pen gates have locks on them!

3) Brand your animals (can only be done if you own a deed)
4) Protect your riding horses or any other animals you plan to park outside of locked areas by going into your branded animal's permissions (right click the animal to see the option) and set a checkmark for "Everyone" under the "Deny all" column. 

 

 

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