Valrei International: A look at the QoL Update

[elentari 2,660]

Realistically, caffeine should actually have a secondary effect called "dehydration". Drinking caffeine should lower water levels at a higher rate than normal so it balances out the required sips you need to maintain the buff active.

Personal experience so far, I  initially used 0.2 kg sips (which is the standard in game for any liquid). I struggled to maintain and increase caffeine levels that way until someone pointed out the buff works even with a 1 gram sip. 

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

14 hours ago, Blacklotus said:

I love the addition of coffee, tea and cacao, but I do have one issue, we cant use cream in our coffee or tea, we cant use sugar, honey, maple syurp or even lemon juice or even basic milk for most of the options.  The other issue is keeping the caffeine buff active. With alcohol we can always take, one more sip to boost alcohol power, with caffeine you have to hope you can lose enough water to keep the buff active and it's highly aggravating to get it full then lose it over nonsense.

We have been discussing adding more ingredient options to caffeinated beverages such as cream and sugar

[Madnath 3,113]

1 hour ago, DemonaNightshade said:

We have been discussing adding more ingredient options to caffeinated beverages such as cream and sugar

 

What about allowing kahvesi to be made in ovens too, since campfire only makes it a bit of a pain in the arse?

And what about the x4 fatigue using being insanely high compared to the balanced SB to skill tick amount?

I put more emphasis on the fatigue part because making it x4 at max power while also not touching on fatigue to make it less dreadful is kinda a weird choice.

[Ajala 581]

2 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

We have been discussing adding more ingredient options to caffeinated beverages such as cream and sugar

 

Why bother? The way food and drink works right now, there's one "best" of each, and all the rest are pointless.

 

I know over 500 recipes, yet I live off pizza and unfermented moonshine. 

[Blacklotus 276]

7 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

We have been discussing adding more ingredient options to caffeinated beverages such as cream and sugar

 

Seeing as beverages use the cooking matrix for how they produce affinities and timers, right now as beverages sit it's a stunted skill. Tea, coffee even the alcohol we can make short of unfermented moonshine for the amount of work it takes is extremely simple and can't be anywhere near as complex as most basic cooking staples.

 

I'm sorry, but assuming a full barrel of gin for example has 3 possible ingredients, (sugar, wheat and water) none of which can be changed except for making the water saltwater. it then takes 5-7 days to ferment the alcohol, and it has to be distilled. It takes for a full barrel almost 90 hours in the still to process. This in and of itself seems to add some level of complexity, but the timer on one of these barrels that's now taken over a week minimum to produce maxes out at 2-3 hour affinity timer at best even at ultra high quality as i'm sure some of the higher skilled brewers can attest too. on top of that, the affinity is pretty much set because of the way fermenting and distilling strip it of anything it may have had before. It's honestly unthinkable to me that unfermented moonshine which has possibly the easiest process to make can produce affinity timers upto 39+ hours on 200g (care of Ajala's experiments) and still gives one of the highest alcohol powers possible.

 

Please consider re-looking at the recipes for current beverages and include things that make sense, add herbs and spices to alcohol beyond the fennel seeds in rum. Make it like beer or ale where you start on a base of moonshine and from there it's kind is determined by the barrel, the woodscrap, and/or the additives. Milk, cream, sugar for coffee and tea, a suggestion from a friend is blended teas and teabags.

A final note in my plea, We have 30 missing affinities from fermented and distilled alcoholic beverages. Alcohol missing affinity spreadsheet (the grey rows means theres no alcohol that fits there) these are based on my 'tastes' of these alcohols but devs have the numbers.

[Borstaskor 503]

I like how we got a reply from demona, but the part she replies to is not the part most people care about.

 

* Add caffeine as a mechanic.

* Balanced it by adding additional fatigue drain.

* Make the fatigue drain so high that you alienate the hardcores from the mechanic.

* Balance it further by making the timer short and make the timer tied to beverages skill.

* make it so it fills thirst and you can't drink it at full thirst, making it very difficult for people with low beverages skill to maintain the buff, hence alienating the casuals too from the mechanic.

* Plan executed. We did it, guys!

* ???

 

So.. Can we get some acknowledgement from someone about the actual issue such as how you added a really cool mechanic but apparently didn't have a good plan on who it was targeted towards leading to it being meh for 80%+ of the playerbase instead of "issues" such as how we can't add cream or sugar to the coffee..? Great to know that you're internally talking about the important stuff.

 

You can tell I'm salty? Well, then don't tell us you'll communicate and listen then not do it.

 

Keenan, where you at? Pls reply. We need a reply from someone who doesn't have backwards priorities and at this point you're my only hope as most stuff you've said lately has been awesome.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Borstaskor

[Darklords 2,238]

1 hour ago, Borstaskor said:

I like how we got a reply from demona, but the part she replies to is not the part most people care about.

 

* Add caffeine as a mechanic.

* Balanced it by adding additional fatigue drain.

* Make the fatigue drain so high that you alienate the hardcores from the mechanic.

* Balance it further by making the timer short and make the timer tied to beverages skill.

* make it so it fills thirst and you can't drink it at full thirst, making it very difficult for people with low beverages skill to maintain the buff, hence alienating the casuals too from the mechanic.

* Plan executed. We did it, guys!

* ???

 

So.. Can we get some acknowledgement from someone about the actual issue such as how you added a really cool mechanic but apparently didn't have a good plan on who it was targeted towards leading to it being meh for 80%+ of the playerbase instead of "issues" such as how we can't add cream or sugar to the coffee..? Great to know that you're internally talking about the important stuff.

 

You can tell I'm salty? Well, then don't tell us you'll communicate and listen then not do it.

 

Keenan, where you at? Pls reply. We need a reply from someone who doesn't have backwards priorities and at this point you're my only hope as most stuff you've said lately has been awesome.

We are discussing tweaks to it, when we have things ready we will be sure to share them.

[Archaed 2,280]

1 hour ago, Borstaskor said:

I like how we got a reply from demona, but the part she replies to is not the part most people care about.

 

* Add caffeine as a mechanic.

* Balanced it by adding additional fatigue drain.

* Make the fatigue drain so high that you alienate the hardcores from the mechanic.

* Balance it further by making the timer short and make the timer tied to beverages skill.

* make it so it fills thirst and you can't drink it at full thirst, making it very difficult for people with low beverages skill to maintain the buff, hence alienating the casuals too from the mechanic.

* Plan executed. We did it, guys!

* ???

 

So.. Can we get some acknowledgement from someone about the actual issue such as how you added a really cool mechanic but apparently didn't have a good plan on who it was targeted towards leading to it being meh for 80%+ of the playerbase instead of "issues" such as how we can't add cream or sugar to the coffee..? Great to know that you're internally talking about the important stuff.

 

You can tell I'm salty? Well, then don't tell us you'll communicate and listen then not do it.

 

Keenan, where you at? Pls reply. We need a reply from someone who doesn't have backwards priorities and at this point you're my only hope as most stuff you've said lately has been awesome.

I get the impression this isn't aimed at the hardcores tbh. 

 

Sounds like a mechanic to give people who have shorter time to play, or shorter grind spurts to capitalise on that time more, while those with more time to have more things to balance against. 

[Jaz 2,665]

Actually the caffeine buff is perfectly targeted at me and boosted my grinding time into the game. I have lost my momentum to spend countless hours grinding but apparently I found myself to be happily grind away a few hours in one sit. Also with 30ish beverages skill it is pretty maintainable, true, the behaviour of the water bar filling up needs some planning.

In my view the new mechanic is hitting the nail almost perfectly if the goal was to get those players in better position who have lower playtime but they still eager to grind hard during that period.

[Archaed 2,280]

I think that's what it's for too. 

 

the mechanics of the buff need work, but I don't think it's poorly balanced, it's just not for hardcore grinders

[Ajala 581]

1 hour ago, Borstaskor said:

 

* Balance it further by making the timer short and make the timer tied to beverages skill.

* make it so it fills thirst and you can't drink it at full thirst, making it very difficult for people with low beverages skill to maintain the buff, hence alienating the casuals too from the mechanic.

 

I have a weaponsmithing skill of under 10 because I never took the time to improve that skill.

 

If I want to benefit from a higher quality weapon, I have to engage the services of somebody who took the time to improve their own WS skill.

 

However, I do have a 91+ beverages skill, because I did take the time (years) to improve that skill, and it seems fair enough that having a high beverages skill finally has a use in the game.

 

This sounds like balance to me.

[elentari 2,660]

I really like this update, and honestly the fatigue drain doesn't bother me that much. Maybe it could be tweaked so it's at 3x instead of 4x for those who want to burn the xtra sleep bonus from missions or sleep powders. 

 

Beverages skill is something i think 90% of wurmians have never skilled since all the people I've talked to since the update have admitted they never skilled it past 20ish and very few have made it to 50 (including myself). Though I admit we have a good reason now to skill it. 

 

It's quite a challenge to maintain the buff at lower beverages levels. 

 

If I could recommend some tweaks to make it more newbie friendly: 

1. Increase the coffee buff timer to 50 minutes, basically for each 5 ql points of a beverage you get a 5 min timer, capped at 50 minutes. In RL drinking a strong expresso shot gives you around an 1 hour energy boost before it fades away. 

2. Increase the fatigue burn for lower ql caffeine type beverages up to 6x fatigue drain when drinking 10 ql coffee for example down to 3x fatigue drain when drinking 90 ql coffee. 

3. Increase the water drain factor when drinking caffeine so it doesn't become a pain in the butt to maintain the buff. 

[Ajala 581]

1 minute ago, elentari said:

It's quite a challenge to maintain the buff at lower beverages levels. 

 

 

 

Incorrect. The buff timer is linked to the quality  of the beverage, not the skill of the imbiber.

[elentari 2,660]

4 hours ago, Ajala said:

Incorrect. The buff timer is linked to the quality  of the beverage, not the skill of the imbiber.

Guess I didn't phrase that right. What I meant was "By having a lower beverages skill your coffee will be of lower ql = the timer of the buff will thus be lower". Meaning it will be difficult to maintain the buff active since the timer is shorter. 

[Ajala 581]

14 minutes ago, elentari said:

Guess I didn't phrase that right. What I meant was "By having a lower beverages skill your coffee will be of lower ql = the timer of the buff will thus be lower". Meaning it will be difficult to maintain the buff active since the timer is shorter. 

 

And I keep getting killed by trolls when I wield swords I made myself.

[LionIX 354]

6 hours ago, elentari said:

3. Increase the water drain factor when drinking caffeine so it doesn't become a pain in the butt to maintain the buff. 

Or add sip option to consume x amount of drinkable liquid no matter the water level. (or treat like alcohol where you can drink whenever)

[Ajala 581]

I'd be in favor of a way to quickly reduce hydration by a small amount via the use of a "Urinate" button. All the best games have them.

[Blacklotus 276]

I think coffee and caffeine have great potential, i also agree with Ajala, if you want high ql weapons you go to a weaponsmith, you want high ql armor you go to an armorer, you want a high ql carpentry tool you see a carpenter, now if you want decent coffee you gotta go to a cook or brewer.

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

21 hours ago, Borstaskor said:

I like how we got a reply from demona, but the part she replies to is not the part most people care about.

 

* Add caffeine as a mechanic.

* Balanced it by adding additional fatigue drain.

* Make the fatigue drain so high that you alienate the hardcores from the mechanic.

* Balance it further by making the timer short and make the timer tied to beverages skill.

* make it so it fills thirst and you can't drink it at full thirst, making it very difficult for people with low beverages skill to maintain the buff, hence alienating the casuals too from the mechanic.

* Plan executed. We did it, guys!

* ???

 

So.. Can we get some acknowledgement from someone about the actual issue such as how you added a really cool mechanic but apparently didn't have a good plan on who it was targeted towards leading to it being meh for 80%+ of the playerbase instead of "issues" such as how we can't add cream or sugar to the coffee..? Great to know that you're internally talking about the important stuff.

 

You can tell I'm salty? Well, then don't tell us you'll communicate and listen then not do it.

 

Keenan, where you at? Pls reply. We need a reply from someone who doesn't have backwards priorities and at this point you're my only hope as most stuff you've said lately has been awesome.

 

I replied to what I was able to reply to and had an answer for. That may not be 'enough' for you, but that's what I had. And in my caffeine post I believe I made it clear that caffeine was meant to provide benefits to those who want to get a good grind in, in a short amount of time.

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:01 PM, TeeeBOMB said:

I see presents under the Christmas tree!!!!

 

Is that a clue? ! ...or just the Christmas tree graphics. But then there is a Christmas package thing in the shelf too. Gift Boxes? Are gift boxes returning?

 

I see a chaise.. will we finally be able to recline like royalty? I think that's normally the only sitting thing we can not sit in, besides fountains.

 

I agree there has been a lot of updates.

 

Good work on the good updates o7

Those are the old gifts, I just spawned them in for atmosphere for the image it's a cute model, much better than when I paint small chests to use as decorative "gifts" in game lol

 

Edit: also, oops. I forgot dark mode in my browser makes my quotes all dark 

[Jaz 2,665]

7 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Those are the old gifts, I just spawned them in for atmosphere for the image it's a cute model, much better than when I paint small chests to use as decorative "gifts" in game lol

Can we have them back at least as decoration please?

[Madnath 3,113]

9 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

 And in my caffeine post I believe I made it clear that caffeine was meant to provide benefits to those who want to get a good grind in, in a short amount of time.

 

What's the reason for the fatigue cost being so high that it almost locks players out who actively play the game a bit more? Seems a bit strange

[Archaed 2,280]

54 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

What's the reason for the fatigue cost being so high that it almost locks players out who actively play the game a bit more? Seems a bit strange

Because it works more like a catch up than a way to run it longer term. 

 

I'm loving it as I can focus on a 30 minute grind far easier than an hour long one 

[elentari 2,660]

1 hour ago, Madnath said:

What's the reason for the fatigue cost being so high that it almost locks players out who actively play the game a bit more? Seems a bit strange

But it's an optional buff though. We don't really have to drink caffeine. Can always play in regular style. 

I just like that the caffeine update takes in account those who don't have that much time to play, like family oriented people or those that work a lot during the week and only have a few hours to play during the weekend. 

 

That being said, I do think a rework for fatigue should be considered for perhaps grinder - playstyles so their playtime isn't necessarily limited by fatigue. Perhaps as a reward for loyalty after a certain amount of prem time similar to how titles for prem are awarded? 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by elentari

[Vorticella 958]

1 hour ago, Madnath said:

What's the reason for the fatigue cost being so high that it almost locks players out who actively play the game a bit more? Seems a bit strange

 

Caffeine just concentrates your skillgain so you can get more out of your time. It's for people who have full sleep bonus all the time because their game time is limited. The fatigue cost only locks out more active players in the same sense that people who can't play as much are basically locked out of the end game because of the time it takes to grind at high levels. If you play actively enough to have issues with fatigue then you don't need caffeine anyway. If not for the fatigue cost, then people who have a lot of time and sleep powder would have an excessive advantage over the rest of us. I think it's a good and fair balance.