Allow remove mine reinforce with mining outdeed

[TimHaus 67]

As reinforced walls can be removed outdeed with magic /money and as reinforced walls can be removed on deed with mining, why couldn't reinforced walls be removed outdeed ?

[DaletheGood 1,073]

Because you should have to work hard to remove reinforcement from tunnels. It shouldn't be something that some newb can come along and just remove at a whim. Time and effort went into making that tunnel, more time and effort should be needed to remove it. Don't want just anyone with a pickax able to block a tunnel that might be an artery for travel.

[Wilczan 2,048]

In my opinion, there should be a way to remove reinforcements in some way. Especially that reinforcing a tile takes just few seconds.

 

Not saying that it should be easy, could be very tedious but should be possible.

 

Casting disintegrate for 100 times or deeding, to remove just one wall is too much.

[Mowglia 190]

4 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

It shouldn't be something that some newb can come along and just remove at a whim.

 

I would just point out that some noob can come along and make a staggering amount of reinforced tiles on a whim.

 

Reinforcements are so easy to make, yet so tricky to remove, the current system does seem somewhat imbalanced.

[Wilczan 2,048]

For example:

 

Currently, I'am reworking some caves near starter town. Almost impossible to remove any reinforcements, couse starter town perimeter is huge, thus cannot drop deed to clear those.

Only chance is to cast disintegrate, but so far it seems hopless, couse I already cast it like 50 times and still nothing.

And that's just 1 tile that is standing in way of my tunnel. There are plenty more....

 

Could be something like required min body strength and mining to remove reinforcement + plenty of mining actions.

[DaletheGood 1,073]

7 hours ago, Mowglia said:

 

I would just point out that some noob can come along and make a staggering amount of reinforced tiles on a whim.

Reinforcements are so easy to make, yet so tricky to remove, the current system does seem somewhat imbalanced.

Fair enough. As long as it's not that easy, I can see it being useful. Maybe a minimum of 50 Mining Skill, set action timers - 30 secs like destroying a fence, and at least as many actions as destroying a stone fence off-deed, maybe double that. Not something to be taken lightly.

[Ekcin 2,407]

-1, definitely, and we had the discussion again and again.

 

We already have a way of taking on reinforcements, the disintegrate spell. It needs very high (90+) magranon channeling in PvE. It has changed so that it is a bit easier, but removes only some hits. Previously, the whole tile was gone on success which was about 1 in 20 for high level mag priests, now it is 1 or 2 hits removed every successful cast. This is an emergency option for the hard ones.

 

Actually, things remain the same: In the wild, create a temporary deed, takes 1s41c (+upkeep fund) or so when the deed is disbanded just after removing possibly reinforced 11x11 tiles.

 

If e.g. a 5x30  temp deed is created for 3s96 (+upkeep) one may shift either side >5 by resizing without additional cost. Upkeep will be 1s/month for an area of 30x30 (900 tiles) allowing to remove a lot of reinforced tiles.

 

The only case where this does not work is in perimeter, and over structures of non consenting owners. That is intentional.

 

Practically all proposals to ease reinforcement removal silently aim at the perimeter or private mine of neighbours, and are part ofterritorial disputes, therefore NO.

 

Edit: @Wilczan: Rework in starter town perimeter, in my opinion, should be discussed with GM. Starter towns are GM made and owned, and I am not sure how permissions there could be modified. Technically, the owner could extend or shrink deed size/perimeter size. But as always, the owner has to decide.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Ekcin
typo

[elentari 2,660]

Personally I look at this as an issue of game design. 

It's quite easy to make an alt, have it go into a mine and reinforce the area of another's mine. This basically can be done at 1 mining skill.

 

The other player is then forced to seek out a high end magranon priest (assuming he doesn't have one, which is mostly a correct assumption) and pay $$$ to remove said reinforcement. 

 

One action = quick and easy to do, no $$$ involved necesarily, no RNG when doing it

The counter action = expensive, high end, RNG based

 

This is the game design issue I see in this case. 

 

Good game design revolves around balance. There is no balance in this case as any player can screw up a public mine or even an off deed mine without the owner's consent. 

[Mowglia 190]

11 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Practically all proposals to ease reinforcement removal silently aim at the perimeter or private mine of neighbours, and are part ofterritorial disputes, therefore NO.

 

There's no such thing as a private mine if it's not on deed. If it's not on a deed then it's not yours, and cannot therefore be private. If you want to own/rent it, then you need to deed it.

 

Also, in the event that a player is able to deed an area to remove reinforcements, then said reinforcements ought to be only "reasonably difficult" to remove without deeding the area (given they are so easy to place).

 

Having said that, I'm in two minds about all this. What I do know is:

 

Adding/removing reinforcements should not be used simply to troll players, or to interfere with public routes such as tunnels and canals.

 

On Epic (and I guess Freedom at least to some extent) if I build an underground offdeed (primarily so that there is no raidable token), and put a 9k strength steel mine door on it, which I tend to do quite a lot, then I would not like to see a situation where it was easier for raiders to get through the walls (reinforcements) than the door. This would defeat the purpose of the door.

 

At the same time I wouldn't want to see a situation where reinforcements are necessarily harder to make as public works already take enough effort.

 

It is a tricky one, no doubt about it, but like I said before, the fact that reinforcements are so easy to place yet so difficult to remove does seem somewhat imbalanced as things stand.