Wilczan

Epic rework

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On 9/27/2021 at 1:07 PM, Zenity said:

What Epic needs is true uniqueness, things that Freedom does not have, something to once again give Epic a reason to play on. Rather than those who play there feeling they are haunting an old cluster with reminders of what we used to have, in the form of old overgrown craters and cracks, and the occasional Valrei mob huddled in a cave waiting for the end to come, alone now, because it's brothers and cousins no longer visit Epic either.

 

Epic need players, players need reasons to come, and stay.

 

We don't need reasosn to visit so we can take our skills back to Freedom, we don't need to be able to take our old and worn out tools and weapons back, we don't need skill or item transfers to make Epic life better, we need an better life IN Epic.

 

Ask not what Epic can offer Freedom, rather ask, what can Epic offer me that Freedom cannot.

 

Well that's a hell of a post! Beautifully written, and summing things up so well.

 

If only this could happen :D

 

But damn, it's easier said than done: the risk is the devs do put some time and effort into Epic, only to end up right back where we are now in a few years time. And with a lot less patience.

 

Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and accept that Epic is never going to be anywhere near as popular as Freedom, and therefore it might be best if players could participate in both Epic and Freedom as the fancy takes them?

 

I've spoken to a couple of players on Freedom recently, who say they have no intention of ever leaving Freedom, but that they would also quite like to visit and explore Epic, and spend a bit of time there. So while I wish things would work as you said, realistically it might be time for a more flexible approach?

 

That said, there's no reason why Epic can't be unique. They should bring back the Valrei mobs for starters. Sorcery could be expanded, as could perhaps meditation (paths only available on Epic). They could bring back player demigods (not gods) as a function of the scenario system, without the ability to follow them (directly), but give rewards like CR bonuses and maybe the odd demigod spell that only they get (for each ascension). And yeah, why not have 50-hit moon-metal veins spawn? That'd raise a few eyebrows. It's not like any of this can imbalance what happens on Freedom as no gear can ever go back (and nor should it).

 

There are ways to improve the attractiveness of Epic, no doubt. And keep it unique. But I also think that Epic would benefit from "tourism" from Freedom, in a similar way that some places benefit from tourism in RL.

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4 hours ago, Mowglia said:

But damn, it's easier said than done: the risk is the devs do put some time and effort into Epic, only to end up right back where we are now in a few years time. And with a lot less patience.

 

I think the key word here is "put some time and effort". 

Epic died off precisely because of that sentence. They only put some time and effort. But not a commited dev or two to deliver periodic updates. On Epic in its last years, the updates specifically for epic came at 8-12 month intervals. The rest of the content was made solely for SFI / Freedom. Epic was largely ignored and its combat issues, its pvp issues, bugs, exploits unadressed created a snowball effect which made players leave in droves.

 

You either commit to something or don't. If you only put "some time and effort" you'll get the results of that half commitment, aka you'll reap what you sow. 

If the devs want to do something about Epic then they need a dev that understands pvp, understands its core issues, has  a vision to fix them longterm and can listen to player feedback when something is terribly broken and a fix is needed in the following weeks NOT years. Many Epic issues were fixed years later after they were reported. 

 

One of the core issues about epic right now is the 1 way skill transfer. As long as we're playing "skill favorites" for Freedom, aka anything grinded on Freedom gets copied to Epic but not viceversa, NO ONE will play on Epic. 

 

Decide if you want to keep this system or not. 

 

This is the main issue. Any other "visions" or "implementations" for Epic won't do anything if you don't address this first. 

 

Assuming this gets fixed via a 2 way skill transfer, the 2nd issue is the "barriers to pvp entry" which let's face it are large. I think a lot of the vets can agree that there's too many buffs and bonuses that old timers have against new people. It's not ok to spend months and months grinding out skills/ stats/ gear ql just to be able to pvp on Epic. 

 

I'd look at meditation bonuses, moon metal saturation on Epic (it's oversaturated, we have moon metal tools at this point), priest balancing, boat fights (people on supreme sailboats get a massive advantage vs regular sailboats due to speed). 

 

Just my two cents. 

Edited by elentari
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12 hours ago, nitram20 said:

And how exactly would this “trade blockade” be enforced. You have heard of alts, yes?

 

Especially PvPers, who are very fond of them. 
 

Even if the trade window is disabled, what is to stop them from simply dropping the items on the ground or using other means to trade? It’s like you never played this game before

 

If war upkeep were to be added to game, the more alts is in kingdom, the more players have to create items each day and store them in the capital or in fortresses, but no one knows what kind of items will be needed and what ql is required, because game should create new and random list every day.

 

As for trade lock...
"- embargo - no entry or trade for players from an embargoed kingdom"

 

During war it may be forbidden for NFI players to cross kingdom border.
Which would make sense in conjunction with a weekly embargo requirement prior to a declaration of war, so those players who would like to help to defend your kingdom would have a week to sail from NFI to Epic.

If someone misses the opportunity then opportunity is lost and they will be able to participate in next war.

If you skip a war and spend it on NFI instead on Epic, no problem, because if you won't join war your deed is treated as PvE and no one can attack it.

 

Simple and effective?

 

22 hours ago, fencejumper said:

 

Epic has always been separated and it's not really possible to have it connected to any other cluster for sea travel. The portal works because it's essentially a different character on each cluster, and the portal lets you select which one you use.

 

I understand that there are some unique features on Epic, but "rework" means a big change to me, so I propose something bigger, that in my opinion would encourage players (me for sure) to play on such map/maps and participate in PvP, although probably not in every war, because I doubt I have time for that.

Unfortunately, normal PvP in Wurm doesn't allow me to pause war/PvP and because if I'm not active I will lose everything, I don't see reason for even starting deed on PvP map.

I mean I can't pause PvP unless I create an army of alts and store everything in them, but for me such a mechanism is just cheating.

Edited by Darnok

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3 hours ago, Darnok said:

Unfortunately, normal PvP in Wurm doesn't allow me to pause war/PvP and because if I'm not active I will lose everything, I don't see reason for even starting deed on PvP map.

I mean I can't pause PvP unless I create an army of alts and store everything in them, but for me such a mechanism is just cheating.

 

Mechanically speaking, MR, JK, and HotS are always at war, and that's kinda the point. Unless they're not (temporarily), but that requires an understanding between players from different kingdoms (which is the way it should be).

 

You're not supposed to be able to "pause" PvP, that's also the point. PvP isn't something that's supposed to happen at your convenience! It's an ever-present threat that you have to deal with. That's why many deeds on Epic have high dirtwalls with longhouses on top, and can only be entered by (at least one) steel mine door. This is usually enough to keep raiders away if you're not around for a while, but not always. Deeds on Epic don't have to be huge, but they do have to be strong.

 

Personally I don't believe that tokens on Epic should be drainable (as it puts some players off building deeds given no one wants to get milked), but they are drainable, and you just have to deal with that too. It's part of the "stress" of living on a PvP server, and was never supposed to be easy or convenient. I think it's supposed to keep us awake at night :P

 

Basically a player with your playstyle would be best suited to a village with other players that are around while you're not. Working with others is a key aspect of PvP, and it's also a fun way to play.

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24 minutes ago, Mowglia said:

 

Mechanically speaking, MR, JK, and HotS are always at war, and that's kinda the point. Unless they're not (temporarily), but that requires an understanding between players from different kingdoms (which is the way it should be).

 

You're not supposed to be able to "pause" PvP, that's also the point. PvP isn't something that's supposed to happen at your convenience! It's an ever-present threat that you have to deal with.

 

I've seen a few games where players said it should work this way, but I didn't see any PvP in those games.

There is no point in discussing this, because Wurm is an old game where PvP works as you wrote for years and for years most of players runs away from PvP, which is one of the reasons why PvE servers exist, right?

Because without PvE maps how many players would be left?


Sure you can try same thing 10th time and maybe this time super harsh PvP game for teenagers who can play 24/7 will attract thousands of players... but I doubt it.

 

PvP can work like you said in WoW like games, where loss after losing battle is not severe, but in sandbox games, where you spend hours creating 1 weapon or armor set, not to mention weeks spent building a deed, such a solution does not make sense, because players after first lost raid will stop play.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Darnok said:

PvP can work like you said in WoW like games, where loss after losing battle is not severe, but in sandbox games, where you spend hours creating 1 weapon or armor set, not to mention weeks spent building a deed, such a solution does not make sense, because players after first lost raid will stop play.

 

Well don't forget you have x2 skillgain on Epic, faster action timers, don't have to grind using "skilling" tools (i.e., everything you're doing can be constructive), and there's the curve on top of all that. Gear is already pretty easy to replace, and skills are easy to gain.

 

What you seem to want to do is mitigate the losses in PvP, or have a "safe" PvP. I'm dead set against that.

 

Although you're probably right! If they "Wowified" PvP in Wurm, it probably would attract more players :D

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Well we may have the situation indeed that Freedom Players can come over to PvP (among other things) on Epic, not risking more than their deed and belongings. A player with level 50 in Freedom craft is 75 on Epic due to the 2*skill-(skill/10)^2 formula, and could easily recreate every lost tool, even weapon at acceptable ql.

 

Moreover, PvP players normally are not alone, the comradeship and cohesion inside a faction is ways stronger than any alliance etc. bonds in PvE. On that base armour and weapons are very likely to be given out to those who need. At least that was the case in PvP environments I experienced.

 

The downside rather was that PvP communities are ways more absorbing, I recall setting alarms in the middle of the night, dropping off from work under excuses etc. That was one of the reasons making me avoid it, beneath the inevitable abusive and toxic players.

 

What I personally dislike in Wurm PvP, and what is keeping me from joining (among other things) is the insane horse consumption. A horse in PvP is not worth a sh*t, and I find that disgusting. Ok it is the PvP meta in Wurm, so be it. I might join PvP on Epic though, but don't want to sacrifice my Freedom affinities from PvE to gankers on Chaos.

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3 hours ago, Mowglia said:

 

Well don't forget you have x2 skillgain on Epic, faster action timers, don't have to grind using "skilling" tools (i.e., everything you're doing can be constructive), and there's the curve on top of all that. Gear is already pretty easy to replace, and skills are easy to gain.

 

And? I checked graphs from the links on wurm wiki today, on every Epic server there were less than 5 players.

 

Quote

 

What you seem to want to do is mitigate the losses in PvP, or have a "safe" PvP. I'm dead set against that.

 

You got it wrong, I want even PvE to be more difficult and force player to take risks 🙂
I have nothing against PvP and players losing items, so I made a proposal for a guaranteed loss for losers, i.e. a war upkeep that is taken from losing side after war, so it is impossible to hide valuable items on alt and log out.

The difference is that in my opinion, a loss is justified if it results from the competition between players, i.e. their skills and tactics, but not their ability to login/their free time.

 

 

Quote

 

Although you're probably right! If they "Wowified" PvP in Wurm, it probably would attract more players :D

 

Nope, wrong again. My point is, PvP system you've described doesn't fit in with any sandbox game in my opinion. It goes well with WoW like games.

Edited by Darnok

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3 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

And? I checked graphs from the links on wurm wiki today, on every Epic server there were less than 5 players.

 

And, if both ways skill transfer were enabled, those things he mentioned, could attract some people.

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5 hours ago, Mowglia said:

What you seem to want to do is mitigate the losses in PvP, or have a "safe" PvP. I'm dead set against that.

It seems from other posts that what is wanted is an ability to keep PvP turned off until an easy-beat player shows up, then quickly turn on PvP, bonk them and retreat to "paused" PvP.

 

Gank mentality, in other words, but wanting ganking built into the game mechanics.

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52 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

It seems from other posts that what is wanted is an ability to keep PvP turned off until an easy-beat player shows up, then quickly turn on PvP, bonk them and retreat to "paused" PvP.

 

Gank mentality, in other words, but wanting ganking built into the game mechanics.

I would despise that, certainly. What I could accept, would be gathering on Epic, on notice from our safe Freedom sites, for PvP battles, rift battles, unique battles. Sometimes losing, sometimes only being the second winner ;)

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23 hours ago, Mowglia said:

The thing is, those players who do actually live/skill on Epic, and don't visit Freedom, are getting a really raw deal right now, and this is only going to get progressively worse if things are left as is. I understand their dilemma as I just had to make that difficult decision myself.

 

So at the bare minimum, if the devs can get Epic to a state where it can continue indefinitely, and those players "stuck" there now get some kind of deal they can live with, I'd be ok with that. Basically that means some kind of fair skill transfer, even if it's just a one-off, with a warning that "This is the last time we do this: proceed at your own risk."

 

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 1:09 AM, DevBlog said:

A one time transfer for all Epic accounts skills as of the 2nd of November to Freedom will be performed during this update.

 

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 1:00 PM, DevBlog said:

As you all know, we’ll be performing a one time skill transfer for players from Epic to Freedom.

 

It was clear that it was a one time deal, it was clear that changing the skilling system would make it more so. Anyone who chose to skill there did so at their own risk, I would think asking for another transfer would be a bit much and that just getting a change to how it works would suffice.

 

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As Zenity already mentioned, Epic started out well; though, many of its features proved to be quite buggy. Player gods were not even possible until patched a year later. Missions were unfinishable for various reasons, lending to unbalanced results.

 

Let alone the toxic social issues among pvpers.

 

Overall the issues took too long to fix or were out-right removed, and the servers suffered a slow death sadly.

 

Today you can easily find unfinished rifts and uniques rampaging around. Only thing unique about Epic now is the skill curving.

 

Edited by Karrde

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another thread darnok'd

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9 hours ago, Wilczan said:

And, if both ways skill transfer were enabled, those things he mentioned, could attract some people.

 

You don't see problem created by 2x skill gain. In my opinion this is reason why these maps are not very popular today.
I didn't play Wurm then, but my guess is that when new Epic map with 2x skill gain was released, it was probably flooded by players, because they were be able to level up faster, so such a map was more attractive, but after 6 months with faster skill gain, almost everyone can become self-sufficient and they can cut off from community and then MMO makes no sense.

 

At least as long as there is a max 100 level skill and ql limit, because if after a few months a new map was released, with a limit of 125 for skills and ql, and players from first map could go there and discover new lands, then 2x skill gain is an element that would attract players all the time.

If this reworked Epic had a higher skill and ql limit then I guess many advanced NFI players would see sense to move their characters there, and new players would also see 2x skill gain as something that will enable them to start faster.

 

7 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

It seems from other posts that what is wanted is an ability to keep PvP turned off until an easy-beat player shows up, then quickly turn on PvP, bonk them and retreat to "paused" PvP.

 

Gank mentality, in other words, but wanting ganking built into the game mechanics.

 

On the contrary, this element would be for players who lost a lot during war to rebuild themselves.

And an easy-to-defeat opponent could not appear, because in war would participate whoever would like to, not those who will be forced into it, as in current PvP.

 

Edited by Darnok

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Moved to suggestions.  I'll also link this thread from the development update thread.

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10 hours ago, SmeJack said:

It was clear that it was a one time deal, it was clear that changing the skilling system would make it more so. Anyone who chose to skill there did so at their own risk, I would think asking for another transfer would be a bit much and that just getting a change to how it works would suffice.

Doesn't mean it was the correct approach. 

 

Many players at the time predicted (correctly) that the skill transfer will leave Epic a barren wasteland devoid of players. Which it did. Epic already had a pretty low population at that point, but when the skill transfer kicked in, everyone left. That was the nail in the coffin as it were.  Those that remained were barely a handful of players that put together could form a semblance of 1 kingdom. But 3 kingdoms to pvp ? Nope. 

 

Fact of the matter is, nothing will change for Epic unless the skill transfer goes both ways, with an equation figured out for what's fairly gained on Epic to be transferred fairly to freedom. Maybe a 1:5 ratio? Depends on individual skills I suppose. Fight skill gain is about the same as on Freedom. Some skills are even harder to grind on Epic due to stuff like catseyes being disabled on Epic so can't grind paving by imping. 

 

The core of the game is to get better at your skills and trade said skills within a social environment, that's the essence of Wurm. That core has been ripped away from Epic the moment you tell players they can only use said skills with the other 3-4 players on their server while having their skillsett locked away from the rest of the wurm community. 

 

It's a splintered community and population graphs have proven that time and time again. It got splintered when WU launched. It got splintered again with the skill transfer to freedom. How many times do we have to do this until we figure out away to make the community a whole? 

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11 hours ago, SmeJack said:

It was clear that it was a one time deal, it was clear that changing the skilling system would make it more so. Anyone who chose to skill there did so at their own risk, I would think asking for another transfer would be a bit much and that just getting a change to how it works would suffice.

 

That's a fair point, and yeah, we all knew...slap me :D

 

I started on Epic, was always loyal to Epic, and basically couldn't imagine anything else. When the devs offered this skill transfer back in 2017 I just lolled and happily ignored it, having no interest in Freedom. I admit I deluded myself into believing Epic would somehow stagger on, and even if few in number, that there were enough other players like myself to make it work. Maybe sometimes the devs need to save us from ourselves :P

 

Things got even worse however, and now we are where we are. It does seem, based on the number of posts talking about a two-way skill transfer, that this might help attract more players to Epic. Even if possible, would it actually work though? I don't know.

 

What I do know is now I spend most of my time on Freedom trying to rebuild my obliterated skills so I can get back to and operate on Epic "safely" (from a skill-retention perspective), at least some of the time. If a miracle happened and the devs and players did somehow get Epic working again, then I'd probably leave Freedom and never return. Which would mean all the grinding I'm doing now on Freedom, trying to rebuild my skills, would effectively be wasted too. Although if Epic is revived, and there's a two-way skilling system, I might not leave Freedom completely. Freedom is interesting in its own right, for various reasons, but nowhere near as compelling as Epic (for me).

 

Anyway, more than anything I need to know what's going to happen. Depending on how this pans out then it might take years to repair the damage, or not, and knowing where I stand at least enables me to make a realistic plan to deal with these issues in the long term. At the end of the day I just want to be able to play Wurm without having to worry about all this "choose Epic or Freedom, and pray you choose wisely" stuff.

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7 hours ago, elentari said:

Doesn't mean it was the correct approach. 

 

You act like i think it was lol

You of anyone should know how i feel about it, but at the end of the day it was done and now here we are

Edited by SmeJack

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Rebrand the server from "Epic" to "Test" and use it for testing new features in an accelerated environment instead of releasing them buggy and broken.

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9 hours ago, SmeJack said:

You of anyone should know how i feel about it, but at the end of the day it was done and now here we are

I didn't want to imply you like how the current Epic situation is, if that is how it was read, it was not my intent, sorry.

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8 hours ago, Sindusk said:

Rebrand the server from "Epic" to "Test" and use it for testing new features in an accelerated environment instead of releasing them buggy and broken.

I bet that people who would like to see any future of Epic, see it rather as a place where you can have fun and "live", not the testing ground.

 

What % of people would bother to test features? Wurm populations is already very small.

 

For test, there could be always some separate test server, no need to change Epic into it, like it would free some resources.

 

The same thing to people that wants to delete Epic for no specific reason. Maybe they just want to close some chapter, couse they left Epic and have no intention going back? Maybe some people just don't like pvp side of the game? Or maybe they just afraid of maintenance cost that could be put somewhere else.

 

As Keenan said:

Quote

"As for shutting down Epic, there's no reason to do this. If we were still on Hetzner, there would be a financial reason to consider it, but since we now load balance game servers across several hosts, the server costs aren't as much of an issue. "

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for an incentive to Play on Epic:

Quote

he TL;DR for those who hate my books is that skill transfer is very hard and still doesn't provide an incentive to play on Epic. In my opinion, we should focus on that incentive first, and then we can look into skill transfers.

 

I think there are already plenty of them, but none will attract people unless skills can go both ways, otherwise people would count their time here as lost, couse skilling, for most, is like a core of Wurm, we like it or not.

 

Few existing pros to play on Epic:

- epic skill curve - faster start for new players

- faster actions - good for everyone but great for new players, couse in many Steam reviews people complain, that doing any simple activity just takes too much time

- plenty of space on each server

- plenty of mobs on each server

- logic skilling, not wogic one - you just use your best tools while doing things, not 1ql ones

- home servers are quite safe couse of combat rating reduction for enemies

- Valrei system with prizes (this needs to be reworked tho, currently additional rewards, except main reward, are rather not exciting for most people to bother)

- something I call self-controlling community. There are no artificial rules forced by game itself, community set it's own rules, and if there's a pest, that steals from you or messing with your area, people can take actions in their own hands , instead of crying on global or bothering GM's about that.

 

As for new incentives? We can suggest some, people already suggested few.

Thing is, no matter what it will be, I bet that sooner or later, freedom players gonna want those too, like was in the past.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Wilczan said:

 

As for new incentives? We can suggest some, people already suggested few.

Thing is, no matter what it will be, I bet that sooner or later, freedom players gonna want those too, like was in the past.

 

 

This is one of the important points that have de incentivised players, Epic is just not unique enough, because sooner or later features on Epic are either transplanted to Freedom, thereby removing a unique Epic feature, or simply removed, like valrei creatures and terraforming events, truthfully I’m not particularly pained to lose the terraforming events, but losing valrei creatures entirely was a loss to some of us, I was quite excited yesterday to come across a Son of Nogump in south Serenity.

 

I understand the reasoning at the time, server population was very low, and all servers were overrun with valrei creatures killing new players all over the place, those that escaped the uniques at least, but a hiatus, rather than an outright removal would maybe have been better. I’d like to see them back, even if reduced in frequency and maybe a little less difficult to kill for lower skilled players. That could change if server populations were better.

 

Players need incentives to come, and incentives to stay, a skills transfer system might attract some,  but it’s not an incentive to stay, it’s an incentive to leave at some point. 
 

I’m not rejecting skills transfer out of hand, I can see it’s a popular topic for many who play on Epic and have a foothold in Freedom as well, like myself, I just don’t see it as an inducement to play on Epic. 
 

Please, bring back some uniqueness to Epic, keep it unique to epic,, faster skilling, faster crafting and imping are nice, but it’s not all that Epic needs to be.

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No point adding new features when the pre-existing ones were nigh unplayable.

 

A few still arent fixed afaik, they were just removed.

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