Wilczan

Epic rework

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Starting new topic, to separate Epic discussion from topic on development update.

 

According to this post:

I believe we have opportunity to suggest changes and improvements for possible Epic rework.

 

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They should make epic a hunting ground and the current playersshould be given a perma pok buff on their toons and send with 1 skill on freedom:) Dont let them start with: uuh but muh items! easy come easy go come grind on freedom bish:)

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Some players will live on Epic and some on Freedom; that's not likely to change, and doesn't need to.  However, currently, the way I understand it, even though you technically have the same toon, really you have two separate characters.  Portalling to Epic is really pausing your main game and starting over on a difference cluster with different rules.  I can understand why people don't want to go back and forth.

 

However, is Epic really unattractive or is it being being allowed to "die on the vine" through lack of promotion and lack of even access from NFI?  From my experience, I knew nothing about Epic except that there were these things called "Epic Portals" which I sort of took to be some kind of mission system for Wurm.  I was months into the game, and these fora, before I started to get an inkling of what existed as Epic.  Mostly, I saw forum questions about when Elevation would be reset or something - which to me WAS a disincentive.  I was curious, but if I had to go through effectively a character reset AND a possible server reset, I wasn't diving in.

 

Some kind of transfer of something should be possible; the question is what?  Skill?  Gear?  Resources? Special "trophy" items?  I do understand the issue of skill transfer being so difficult as to be essentially unmanageable but skillgain is not the sum of what is valuable about Wurm. 

 

In point form;

  1. Epic should be promoted
  2. Epic should be accessible from ALL other server/clusters
  3. Something should transfer to Epic
  4. Something should transfer from Epic.

All fairly generic, I know, but a kernel for discussion in some semblance of a structured manner.  From the first pair of points the obvious question is "How" and from the second pair the obvious question is "What" (with "how" also to be addressed).

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster
change from bullet point to numbered
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Connection by sea with NFI.

I have suggested several times to add seasonal islands that would have different seasons than the current islands in the NFI.

On each island, different plants and animals could appear as a unique attraction attracting players.

 

The biggest problem in my opinion is PvP. The simplest solution would be to set up several relationship statuses between kingdoms, and by default each kingdom would be at peace with others.

 

Suggested statuses:
- friendly relations - players of both kingdoms can cross the border and will not be attacked, they can gather resources, hunt and trade, but they cannot build or terraform anything in territory of a foreign kingdom,

- peace - both kingdom players are free to travel and trade, but cannot hunt or gather anything,

- embargo - no entry or trade for players from an embargoed kingdom,

- war - players may cross the border but will be attacked and may die.

 

Changing first 3 statuses is free, but declaring war costs and every day when the kingdom is at war, players must deliver goods they produce to the capital.

There could be a restriction where it is not possible to change status from peace to war and the kingdom must first set embargo for a period of time, say RL week, so that players from the kingdom to be attacked can prepare for war.

 

When war is declared, both kings gather their knights to set their status as the defender of kingdom, that is, they become PvP players.

So they can die and lose items, and their deeds can be invaded by the opponent.

Players who prefer to play PvE are still forced to pay goods to capital, but cannot lose anything during the war and their deeds cannot be attacked, but they can be killed outside of their deeds.

 

The type and quality of required goods that each player sends to capital is random and forced by game. If one of kingdoms fails to pay all the required goods for 3 days, it loses war economically.

The winner receives goods sent to the opposing capital and can distribute them among the knights who participated in the war.

 

Alternatively alliance leaders can designate an area to build a fortress, during a war alliance members may store goods in fortress instead of sending them to capital.
During war fortress is exposed to raids and if it falls, goods it contains can be stolen by the opponent.

 

In this way, each PvP and PvE player would be involved in a war, but how much someone sacrifices and is willing to lose would depend only on him and in each war he could make a different decision.

 

EDIT:

As long as alliance fortress is standing, deeds of members of that alliance, who changed status to PvP, cannot be invaded.

 

 

 

Edited by Darnok
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9 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Connection by sea with NFI.

I have suggested several times to add seasonal islands that would have different seasons than the current islands in the NFI.

On each island, different plants and animals could appear as a unique attraction attracting players.

 

The biggest problem in my opinion is PvP. The simplest solution would be to set up several relationship statuses between kingdoms, and by default each kingdom would be at peace with others.

 

Suggested statuses:
- friendly relations - players of both kingdoms can cross the border and will not be attacked, they can gather resources, hunt and trade, but they cannot build or terraform anything in territory of a foreign kingdom,

- peace - both kingdom players are free to travel and trade, but cannot hunt or gather anything,

- embargo - no entry or trade for players from an embargoed kingdom,

- war - players may cross the border but will be attacked and may die.

 

Changing first 3 statuses is free, but declaring war costs and every day when the kingdom is at war, players must deliver goods they produce to the capital.

There could be a restriction where it is not possible to change status from peace to war and the kingdom must first set embargo for a period of time, say RL week, so that players from the kingdom to be attacked can prepare for war.

 

When war is declared, both kings gather their knights to set their status as the defender of kingdom, that is, they become PvP players.

So they can die and lose items, and their deeds can be invaded by the opponent.

Players who prefer to play PvE are still forced to pay goods to capital, but cannot lose anything during the war and their deeds cannot be attacked, but they can be killed outside of their deeds.

 

The type and quality of required goods that each player sends to capital is random and forced by game. If one of kingdoms fails to pay all the required goods for 3 days, it loses war economically.

The winner receives goods sent to the opposing capital and can distribute them among the knights who participated in the war.

 

Alternatively alliance leaders can designate an area to build a fortress, during a war alliance members may store goods in fortress instead of sending them to capital.
During war fortress is exposed to raids and if it falls, goods it contains can be stolen by the opponent.

 

In this way, each PvP and PvE player would be involved in a war, but how much someone sacrifices and is willing to lose would depend only on him and in each war he could make a different decision.

 

What game is this? It sounds really bad.

 

Richest kingdom can declare a war on everyone else and they default to bankruptcy after a while. We had similar scenarios like in the terrible game you are talking about, where one kingdom was so much more powerful than the others that they drove everyone else off the PvP server and then complained that there is no PvP happening.

That ridiculous game you described is a gateway to exactly this but easier.

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4 minutes ago, Locath said:

 

What game is this? It sounds really bad.

 

Richest kingdom can declare a war on everyone else and they default to bankruptcy after a while. We had similar scenarios like in the terrible game you are talking about, where one kingdom was so much more powerful than the others that they drove everyone else off the PvP server and then complained that there is no PvP happening.

That ridiculous game you described is a gateway to exactly this but easier.

 

But the bigger the kingdom, the more it would pay in a war, because war upkeep should be set per character.

In this way, a small kingdom would be a less attractive target for a declaration of war.

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1 minute ago, Darnok said:

But the bigger the kingdom, the more it would pay in a war, because war upkeep should be set per character.

In this way, a small kingdom would be a less attractive target for a declaration of war.

 

None of which can't be sorted with a credit card, right?

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8 minutes ago, Locath said:

 

None of which can't be sorted with a credit card, right?

 

A war upkeep would require player-crafted items, not silver, so you'd have to buy them from someone.

Question is whether players of small kingdoms would like to support the great monster that can attack them in next week?

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6 minutes ago, Darnok said:

A war upkeep would require player-crafted items, not silver, so you'd have to buy them from someone.

 

So... credit card?

If and when Epic has any population to talk about and there is more than 1 player per kingdom online at a time, such system would make me visit PvP for the first time just to craft and sell said items and go back home with the money.

Edited by Locath

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seems kind of pointless to put work in for pvp on epic years after it needed it when there's other more populated pvp servers they're already neglecting as it is, are they expecting to draw some massive crowd of people back (enough to sustain population, <50 players on a server and everyone but the most dedicated leave because finding pvp isn't worth the time, and then no new players stick around because there's barely any vets to help them/do typical mmo stuff), or are they hoping to draw people from freedom into a pvp themepark where you get rewards to take home or something? i'd hope it's already proven that no skill or items on epic going back to freedom makes it unattractive to basically anyone who plays on freedom, and even makes people who lived on epic instead play on freedom because there's no risk of their skills getting stuck on a cluster they might not play in the future.

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Just now, Locath said:

 

So... credit card?

If and when Epic has any population to talk about and there is more than 1 player per kingdom online at a time, such system would make me visit PvP for the first time just to craft and sell said items and go back home with the money.

 

If there were one great and strong kingdom, the wise kings of smaller kingdoms would impose an embargo when this giant declared war, to prevent it from being supported through trade.

So what would a credit card give you if you couldn't buy items from anyone to pay war upkeep?

 

Additionally, the kingdom with most alts would have the worst economic situation during war, so like two hits with one stone 🙂

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1 minute ago, Darnok said:

If there were one great and strong kingdom, the wise kings of smaller kingdoms would impose an embargo when this giant declared war, to prevent it from being supported through trade.

So what would a credit card give you if you couldn't buy items from anyone to pay war upkeep?

 

You know this is about Epic, right? You know (?) Epic portals exist? You know you can pop in, make thousands of X item and sell them there and then and then *poof* back to your deed on Freedom with the monies?

 

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Once upon a time, Rolf conceived Epic as a standalone PvP cluster, with Unique mechanisms that only Epic had, partly as an enticement to play there, part of the concept Rolf had in his mind. Terraforming events, triggered by Scenarios, which were influenced by player interaction via missions. Unique Valrei monsters, also triggered by missions and scenarios. The ability to become a Player God, and have priests with different mixtures of spells than the standard 4 gods of Freedom. 

 

And for a while, things were good, Epic was different from Freedom indeed, but slowly and surely those unique Epic only things were leaked to Freedom, devaluing Epic's uniqueness, some features were removed altogether, such as Valrei monsters, terraforming events, and player gods. in the end, Epic has become standardised, with only some of the skilling and player progression mechanics in place. Now it's all that Epic has, the slightly faster skilling, and different skillgain mechanism, which is frankly mot enough to make Epic unique really, it's more and more like a WU knockoff clone of Epic now.

 

What Epic needs is true uniqueness, things that Freedom does not have, something to once again give Epic a reason to play on. Rather than those who play there feeling they are haunting an old cluster with reminders of what we used to have, in the form of old overgrown craters and cracks, and the occasional Valrei mob huddled in a cave waiting for the end to come, alone now, because it's brothers and cousins no longer visit Epic either.

 

Epic need players, players need reasons to come, and stay.

 

We don't need reasosn to visit so we can take our skills back to Freedom, we don't need to be able to take our old and worn out tools and weapons back, we don't need skill or item transfers to make Epic life better, we need an better life IN Epic.

 

Ask not what Epic can offer Freedom, rather ask, what can Epic offer me that Freedom cannot.

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7 minutes ago, Locath said:

 

You know this is about Epic, right? You know (?) Epic portals exist? You know you can pop in, make thousands of X item and sell them there and then and then *poof* back to your deed on Freedom with the monies?

 

 

Well, it's obvious that such mechanisms would have to be removed. And as I wrote journey to epic should take place by ship, so being a member of kingdom outside of your deed, you could die and maybe even lose your ship to make it difficult to support kingdoms during war.

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10 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

Well, it's obvious that such mechanisms would have to be removed. And as I wrote journey to epic should take place by ship, so being a member of kingdom outside of your deed, you could die and maybe even lose your ship to make it difficult to support kingdoms during war.


I am implacably opposed to being able to sail back and forth from Epic, it’s a separate cluster for a reason, and should never be joined or merged. The reason why should be obvious. It further devalues Epic as a unique cluster, blithely sailing home after raiding with your cargo of ill gotten gains to sell in safety? It’s been a long lasting issue with Chaos. No. Epic needs it’s uniqueness back, not to be further integrated with Freedom until nothing is left at all.

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1 hour ago, Zenity said:


I am implacably opposed to being able to sail back and forth from Epic, it’s a separate cluster for a reason, and should never be joined or merged. The reason why should be obvious. It further devalues Epic as a unique cluster, blithely sailing home after raiding with your cargo of ill gotten gains to sell in safety? It’s been a long lasting issue with Chaos. No. Epic needs it’s uniqueness back, not to be further integrated with Freedom until nothing is left at all.

 

What if like I mentioned in the other post it was boat link of Epic and Defiance. Seems like no safe carebear loot allowed and more people to play with, or would that also spoil things?

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10 hours ago, Zenity said:

Epic need players, players need reasons to come, and stay.

 

We don't need reasons to visit so we can take our skills back to Freedom, we don't need to be able to take our old and worn out tools and weapons back, we don't need skill or item transfers to make Epic life better, we need an better life IN Epic

 

I think we need both.  Don't make players choose BETWEEN Freedom and Epic.  Forcing people to choose between NFI and SFI is also a problem, with many requests to remove that in one way or another.  

 

It certainly wouldn't need to be sailing access - Epic is still a different world with different rules so getting there through a portal makes sense.  This would already inherently limit what a character could take with them even without the the current mechanism which is effectively running an Epic alt with the same character name.  What if you could travel with only your non-drop and your equipped gear?  Put a cool-down on portal use to stop people just skipping back and forth.

 

Is Epic skill gain 2x normal and THEN the curve is applied, or is a case of the Epic curve meaning approximately 2x Freedom skillgain? I ask because if the "raw" skillgain is unchanged and the curve works only on Epic to create an Epic-effective skill level, then I don't see any need for skill transfers etc.   If it isn't then why is it not?  If skill gain wasn't fast enough, then the curve itself could have been tweaked.  I am trying to envision a system whereby the raw skill stays with the character, but the effective skill is in play for whatever server.  This would entirely eliminate "transfers" of skill.  You would have underlying skills and they would be effective in a particular way for a particular server.   I understand that accelerated skillgain on Epic works differently for different skills, and also that skill ticks happen differently - that could make this a difficult proposition to resolve, but why not make it an opportunity to standardize and balance the way skill gain happens, with the rate/effect being applied based on the server cluster?  This could well be almost as difficult as working out the calculations for one-time skill transfers (I really don't know) but has the merit of being more of a one-and-done approach.  What I have in my head is eliminating skills and skill gain as considerations and also to have character continuity no matter what world the character is in.

 

Having read up a bit, it seems there is 2x skill gain PLUS the curve.  I don't know why that is, but I don't think it would be hard to revert to 1x skillgain and put the 2x in the curve calculation.  To transition to a different system would probably require simply drawing a line under current skills - with maybe back-calculating to establish a "raw" skill for portalling and Bob's your uncle.  The aim is for skills to work in-world they way they are intended, but to be eliminated from consideration of which cluster to inhabit or visit.

 

Keep the Epic experience and the Freedom experience as distinct, and indeed perhaps do some work to reintroduce some of Epic's distinction from Freedom - and in future if we on Freedom want something that is currently only available on Epic then we know where to go to experience it.  Maybe "pair" Epic servers with Freedom servers (not 1:1 obviously) for Unique creatures.  Once a Unique has been slain on Freedom it will only respawn on Epic, and only once it is slain there can it respawn on Freedom.  A very rough idea, but if we want people to go to Epic to stay, Step One might be to get them to go for an event.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, CreZ said:

 

What if like I mentioned in the other post it was boat link of Epic and Defiance. Seems like no safe carebear loot allowed and more people to play with, or would that also spoil things?

At the moment NFI and SFI are separate, there’s no bank interaction at all, adding Epic to the mix would act like a back door to that separation. Since Epic and Freedom banks are linked, it would also permit accounts from SFI to transfer to NFI via Epic. So probably an idea with unintentional consequences, or do you want accounts with high skills setting up on Defiance after literally years of playing on Freedom, Chaos or Epic? One of the reasons NFI is a separate cluster is to make sure that as much as possible everyone started with a clean slate, not just warping in with high end crafting or fighting skills and pwning the noobs.

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To explain a little, epic skill gain, that is the amount of skill you gain from actions, is 2x. The Epic effective skill curve is an entirely different mechanism, depending on your skill it allows you to make, or do things which would normally require higher skills, it’s intended to have a greater effect at lower skill levels, and slowly tapers off around 98 or so. For instance, a player with 36 prospecting has an effective prospecting skill of just over 60, meaning they can estimate how much ore is left in a vein. Similarly someone with 36 weapon smithing can produce weapons up to about 60-70 ql. 
 

Both the 2x skill gain and effective skill curve serve to boost low skilled players, allowing them to participate much faster than other clusters. Your skills rise faster, and what you are able to produce is higher quality than it would be at bare numeric skill levels.

 

on top of this there’s also the faster action timers as well, each action is noticeably faster than Freedom. 
 

So, faster skillgain, higher ql, faster production and imping.

 

Ironically this is also Epic’s biggest problem, if people expect a simple, and fair, transfer of skill from Epic to Freedom, then they’ll be disappointed, having gone through one skills transfer I can tell you, it wasn’t smooth and easy, and since then Epic has a different skilling system on top of the 2x plus curve plus timers, it’s further complicated by the difference between how you gain skill on freedom, and how it’s gained on Epic, any formula for transferring skill gains between clusters will be insanely complex, and as always, prone to errors when all of that is impacted by skill reductions thru death as well, (yes, we die on Epic, and lose skills the same way everyone else does, to PvP and silly errors with dragons etc).

Edited by Zenity
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Ah, thank you for the explanation.  Maybe what I suggested regarding skill would not be workable, but I do think that the core element of somehow removing skill from the equation is worth pursuing.  It seems to me that Epic's skill system may have been intended to do that with regard to going TO Epic, but people seem to have still seen Epic as a place to only visit and therefore want the disadvantage-neutralized of Epic to become and active advantage carried back to Freedom.  I don't care much at all about skill, so I have difficulty judging it's motivational value on others.  I wouldn't care at all about Freedom skills and Epic skills being forever separate and distinct.  Am I correct that whatever skill is acquired in Epic will be there upon return to Epic should a player head over to Freedom for a period?

 

I do think that allowing a player to take their equipped (or at the least, worn) gear with them through a portal would be good, but with long portal cooldown.  Personally, I rely on my gear (which was given to me and is better than I can craft - with the exception of my sword and shield which I crafted but someone else improved) to keep me alive while I do the stuff that interests me more.

 

I am not personally too worried if people try to game portals by making multiple trips to Epic to bring in a bunch of armour and weapons.  If they gain some marginal benefit from that it still doesn't disadvantage anyone else that I can see, so I don't see it as a big deal.  

 

There should be varieties of the following that are unique to Epic, (as well as varieties unique to Freedom).

  • creatures (including Unique creatures)
  • material resources
  • events

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Zenity said:


I am implacably opposed to being able to sail back and forth from Epic, it’s a separate cluster for a reason, and should never be joined or merged. The reason why should be obvious. It further devalues Epic as a unique cluster, blithely sailing home after raiding with your cargo of ill gotten gains to sell in safety? It’s been a long lasting issue with Chaos. No. Epic needs it’s uniqueness back, not to be further integrated with Freedom until nothing is left at all.

 

I agree that my idea of combining PvP and PvE would work much better if it would be tested on a cluster that is cut off from other islands.


But from the point of view of an NFI player, I would like to be able to travel to new islands, explore and expand, creating a new character after a year of playing does not make sense.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

I agree that my idea of combining PvP and PvE would work much better if it would be tested on a cluster that is cut off from other islands.


But from the point of view of an NFI player, I would like to be able to travel to new islands, explore and expand, creating a new character after a year of playing does not make sense.

 

 

 

 

Epic has always been separated and it's not really possible to have it connected to any other cluster for sea travel. The portal works because it's essentially a different character on each cluster, and the portal lets you select which one you use.

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On 9/27/2021 at 12:55 PM, Darnok said:

 

If there were one great and strong kingdom, the wise kings of smaller kingdoms would impose an embargo when this giant declared war, to prevent it from being supported through trade.

So what would a credit card give you if you couldn't buy items from anyone to pay war upkeep?

 

Additionally, the kingdom with most alts would have the worst economic situation during war, so like two hits with one stone 🙂

And how exactly would this “trade blockade” be enforced. You have heard of alts, yes?

 

Especially PvPers, who are very fond of them. 
 

Even if the trade window is disabled, what is to stop them from simply dropping the items on the ground or using other means to trade? It’s like you never played this game before

Edited by nitram20

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On 9/27/2021 at 12:55 PM, Oblivionnreaver said:

seems kind of pointless to put work in for pvp on epic years after it needed it when there's other more populated pvp servers they're already neglecting as it is, are they expecting to draw some massive crowd of people back (enough to sustain population, <50 players on a server and everyone but the most dedicated leave because finding pvp isn't worth the time, and then no new players stick around because there's barely any vets to help them/do typical mmo stuff), or are they hoping to draw people from freedom into a pvp themepark where you get rewards to take home or something? i'd hope it's already proven that no skill or items on epic going back to freedom makes it unattractive to basically anyone who plays on freedom, and even makes people who lived on epic instead play on freedom because there's no risk of their skills getting stuck on a cluster they might not play in the future.

 

I think (or rather hope) the idea here would be to get Epic into a state where it's viable at least.

 

Like you said in your last line: I swore I'd never leave Epic, but I now live/skill on Freedom too, precisely because I'm worried about how Epic will go, and I'd rather take a bad hit now than a fatal one down the road. I figured it's just safer to do it this way as I can take my skills from Freedom to Epic, but not vice-versa.

 

The thing is, those players who do actually live/skill on Epic, and don't visit Freedom, are getting a really raw deal right now, and this is only going to get progressively worse if things are left as is. I understand their dilemma as I just had to make that difficult decision myself.

 

So at the bare minimum, if the devs can get Epic to a state where it can continue indefinitely, and those players "stuck" there now get some kind of deal they can live with, I'd be ok with that. Basically that means some kind of fair skill transfer, even if it's just a one-off, with a warning that "This is the last time we do this: proceed at your own risk."

 

Anything beyond that, which might actually attract a few more Freedomers to venture over, even if only occasionally, then I'll happily take that too. But I'm not expecting the devs to start going hammer and tongs on some Epic overhaul, and I definitely don't think the devs are expecting to draw large numbers back to Epic.

 

People should be realistic about the future of Epic. Nonetheless, it would be great to see this thing finally resolved in a way where Epic survives long-term, and the die-hards that belong there don't have this hideous dilemma hanging over them like the Sword of Damocles.

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