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Davih

Rework Rarity system before merging.

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I don't know if the merge will ever come, and when, some people say it's close, i have personally no idea , but it seems to be the inevitable consequence of the ongoing population shrinking.

So, what would be the biggest bad consequences of server merging that comes to my mind?

 - The fact that new players will be mixed with very old players with extremely high skills ---> this was and still is definitively a problem, but it's getting smaller every day, we are starting to have more and more people at 95-99 and even 100 skill every day even in NFI, so shouldn't be as harsh as it would have been a few months ago, so, the more time passes, the more we can take it.

- The fact that the market will crush under the huge amount of rare/supreme tools that overflow the markets from several years in SFI(and some, like me, are just sleeping there, because they are actually playing in NFI now) ---> This is definitively a problem, what has always been nice about the NFI servers is the new and thriving economy based on the scarcity of rare/sup tools (also thanks to stealth-rare creation nerf) and of things in general. Ofc there are other things that would get hit really hard, like scale and imbue, but there's probably not much that can be done about that.

Spoiler: an example of like 40% of my tools on SFI just laying around and waiting to overflow the market again, i have way more around in magical chests, double or triple supreme ones, etc.

 

Spoiler

581Iktt.png




Rarity rework.

Disclaimer: I know a good portion of the community is going to say things like "who cares about this, i never even had a rare pickaxe and i have 117 mining, and so on, but please keep in mind that not everyone shares your playstile, and most hardcore players i've met have at least a few supreme tools even on NFI and probably care to have more.

So, what could be a way to artificially and easily "extend" the longevity of the game wtihout going back to the "dead market" of SFI where everyone already has everything?

Adding another layer of rarity for example. But what's the point of doing that if fantastics are already basically impossible to obtain? (i doubt most of even 10years-long hardcore players even ever had a single fantastic tool.)

To give the idea, in case people din't know it, the odds for obtaining a rare/surepeme/fantastic with improving/creation are something like this: 1/~10/~6500+
So yeah, besides fantastic bones, getting a single fantastic tool isn't a once in a lifetime thing, it's more like a "once in 75 lifetimes" thing, and i feel like that's what most of people fail to perceive.
Once you get all the supreme tools that you want you are basically done, equipment wise, there's basically no way you'll ever get or even have a chance to buy on auction the next tier of it.

My ideas are:
- Change the odds from  1/~10/~6500+ to something like 1/8/64/512, Adding a new layer of rarity in the process, i mean you'll still have to craft an average of 64 rare tools to see a fantastic, it's not like they're going to freely drop from the sky, it's just basically adding even a possibility to see them, the only way to see a fantastic right now is getting one of the "generated" or spawned rewards (the only fantastic i ever got myself was a rift ada lump), maybe a bone, or like go to the new starter towns where someone tought it was a good idea to just spawn a fantastic colossus there (seriously, why, lol)
- Also please remove the ability for non-premium to even create rares, or reduce it dramatically, to at least reduce multiaccount abuse, at least require premium to have some sort of money sink.
- Probably tune-back the stealth-creation nerf after doing those changes, as it's probably more punishing on regular random players than on raremaking experts, and the market would be able to take it with the new rarity tier(s)
(edit:)- According to the de-nerfing of rare creation, we could buff-up improves to always turn the item to rare+(same odds for higher tiers) on inspiration when the improve succedes, this would bring it in line with "old" rare creation chances and would reward the "random uncaring player" more, as creation spamming is always something you do on purpose to create rare, while imping is often done by people just as a normal playstile.

I could potentially expand a lot on the idea, on the numbers/effects of the new tier/ even rework the old ones, but i'm waiting for at least some positive feedback before doing that, and i'm honestly not expecting a lot.

Am i posting this for my own gain?

I am looking forward to someone pointing this out, and i am definitively someone that made and still makes tons of rares and supremes in game,  in fact that's exactly why i'm so interested in the subject.
Please keep in mind that i already have way more silvers that i know how to spend, and with RMT gone the only really thing i care about is enjoying the game and get some "gear progression" in it.

Being one of the few people that actually has a fantastic tool(and a good one) it would become way less precious, all my supreme tools i worked so hard for wouldn't be the "technical endgame" anymore. and i would almost be back to square one, gear-wise.

But that's exactly what i'm looking for: more challenge, longer pve endgame, which is the same reason why i moved to NFI despite having basically reached endgame on SFI.

---------------------
I will probably edit and add more things to this thread in the near future.

 

Edited by Davih
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Providing they do implement a merger this would be a good way to deal with one of the many outcomes to come from a merger with two totally different economies. The only thing I would disagree with is the idea of preventing non premium accounts from getting a rare. I realize a lot of players use tons of non prem alts to spam out rare after rare. However there is a big majority of people that want to experience the game for awhile before they sink some money into it, and preventing them from getting a rare seems quite unfair. I realize the difference between non rare and rare isn’t huge but for some it could be the reason to keep playing and buy prem. I can’t see any way of allowing one side and not the other for non premiums. Other then that though +1 for your idea. 
 

Spoiler

We miss you in SFI Davih and Luttuosa!!! Please come visit!

 

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29 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

 I realize a lot of players use tons of non prem alts to spam out rare after rare.

Yeah, and to avoid any confusion, i do that aswell, with even more accounts than before since rare creation was nerfed.
it's precisely because i mastered the "exploiting" of the system that i care to point out the weaknesses. 

I would assume that if someone plays with a single character it's very likely that he is at least premium, but i understand your concern, we probably need more "single acccount worthy" rewards like rifts for non premium players. Sure, you can still attend rifts with 8 alts, but good luck on getting any good score on them. I think it's a kinda-necessary sacrifice that should be compensated from other forms of possible income for noobs, maybe make mobs drop rare coins more frequently? it's hardly something that you can multiaccount.

Edited by Davih

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Generally spoken, -1.

 

I consider all the ravings about the "thriving economy" in NFI by migrated WO veterans disgusting and sanctimonious. In fact, those players were the ones who immediately grabbed the opportunity, leveled up hundred times faster than a normal beginner, and dominated "the market". I am sure all available rarity exploits have been diligently used and abused on NFI where the prices for those were ten times higher.

 

What are such veterans fearing from a merge? Competition and loss of monopoly. Sorry, f* the "economy".

 

I can say that I possess a couple of rares, no supreme, no fantastic, and all except a rare hammer I got as a giveaway (Emoo or Madnath, not sure) rared by me, mainly by imping, in one case from archaeology, and one rare staff from a recent slaying as a prize. That other may have stacks of rares and supremes, especially when playing since long time, never did bother me, and there were no such bottom low prices seducing me to buy them. Why should non carpetbagger Northerners be denied the chance?

 

Honestly, I had a look at the techniques to "mass produce" rares, and found them too boring to try. But I fear that those smart nerfs will impair my ability to get hold on or gain rares in the future.

 

Btw. the myth about the shrinking population does not become true by saying it three times (or more often).

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So you want the rare system changed to mean non premiums can't, and with prem alts you can spam out better gear? 

 

Rare farming is just... 

 

If you mean what you are saying, I suggest saccing your "abundance waiting to be sold" as proof of you caring about balance more than profit

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7 minutes ago, Archaed said:

If you mean what you are saying, I suggest saccing your "abundance waiting to be sold" as proof of you caring about balance more than profit

 

I get where you're coming from but thats a bit outlandish and extreme (and I'm a expert on hyperbole!)

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A word about the proposed rare ban for f2p: I played 40 days as f2p in 2017/18 intensely, and I got hands on a few rares, stuff like clay, tar, shafts etc. in that period and later after premming. As I was not a "whale" I was delighted that I could sell them for 20c each on average. I just fail to see why denying that to new players.

 

And while it may be cheaper for an exploiter to create n f2p accounts for rare spamming, the cost of 4s per month for an initial account can hardly be considered prohibitive. A single creation ql rare tool or weapon easily goes for 1-2s or more even on SFI, no matter what some veterans may have in their LMCs.

 

And as to what is now SFI, I did never see, and do not see now, that rare tools, weapons, equipment are so abundant that they are dead cheap. The prices may not be as insane as in NFI, sure. I fail to see why one should deny Northerners fair prices only for the profit of some greedy vets.

Edited by Ekcin
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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

I consider all the ravings about the "thriving economy" in NFI by migrated WO veterans disgusting and sanctimonious. In fact, those players were the ones who immediately grabbed the opportunity, leveled up hundred times faster than a normal beginner, and dominated "the market". I am sure all available rarity exploits have been diligently used and abused on NFI where the prices for those were ten times higher.

 

What are such veterans fearing from a merge? Competition and loss of monopoly. Sorry, f* the "economy".

 

I can say that I possess a couple of rares, no supreme, no fantastic, and all except a rare hammer I got as a giveaway (Emoo or Madnath, not sure) rared by me, mainly by imping, in one case from archaeology, and one rare staff from a recent slaying as a prize. That other may have stacks of rares and supremes, especially when playing since long time, never did bother me, and there were no such bottom low prices seducing me to buy them. Why should non carpetbagger Northerners be denied the chance?

 

Honestly, I had a look at the techniques to "mass produce" rares, and found them too boring to try. But I fear that those smart nerfs will impair my ability to get hold on or gain rares in the future.

 

Btw. the myth about the shrinking population does not become true by saying it three times (or more often).


Jeez, you speak as if RMT was still a thing and people actually grabbed real money. Did i seize the opportunity to have fun? Yeah, i definitively did that!

Everyone has his own playstile, i like trading and playing the merchant, where's all this hate coming from? seriously...

All i see is that if and when the merge will happen the fun will be over, and we'll all transition back into the old, dead, boring, SFI market, and trust me when i say i played a lot in both servers, and the difference is huge.

So yeah, i was trying to think about a way to bring back some life into both markets while making the least possible damage to everyone.

Actually, this isn't denying at all the opportunity to buy "leftover stacked up rares and supremes" for northerners and none of those items will disappear. We will just have a very slight chance of further gear progression for everyone.

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

. But I fear that those smart nerfs will impair my ability to get hold on or gain rares in the future.


I will just quote myself to answer this:
 

Quote

- According to the de-nerfing of rare creation, we could buff-up improves to always turn the item to rare+(same odds for higher tiers) on inspiration when the improve succedes, this would bring it in line with "old" rare creation chances and would reward the "random uncaring player" more, as creation spamming is always something you do on purpose to create rare, while imping is often done by people just as a normal playstile.


 

 

1 hour ago, Archaed said:

So you want the rare system changed to mean non premiums can't, and with prem alts you can spam out better gear? 

 

Rare farming is just... 

 

If you mean what you are saying, I suggest saccing your "abundance waiting to be sold" as proof of you caring about balance more than profit


Lol, seriously? This is like the least important thing i said in the entire thread, and if you really don't want to change that, whatever, who cares, i just pointed out a problem that can be easily abused in my list of suggested changes, if you don't where that problems lies.

And the suggestions i made would already kinda make all my "sleeping supremes" less valuable by itself, like a sort of partial "market reset"


To be honest, if actually wanted to bank (like i needed any more silvers, lol) , i could just shut up and say "please merge" and start selling all my double/triple supremes and uncountable rares as soon as the merge is done.

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9 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

A word about the proposed rare ban for f2p: I played 40 days as f2p in 2017/18 intensely, and I got hands on a few rares, stuff like clay, tar, shafts etc. in that period and later after premming. As I was not a "whale" I was delighted that I could sell them for 20c each on average. I just fail to see why denying that to new players.

Because "new players" are more likely to be already premium, and even if they weren't, as i said earlier, i would suggest pushing more towards "hard to multiaccount" rewards, like coins from mobs of stuff like that, rather than things that can be easily exploited by free multiaccounting like spamming for rares.
 

9 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

And as to what is now SFI, I did never see, and do not see now, that rare tools, weapons, equipment are so abundant that they are dead cheap. The prices may not be as insane as in NFI, sure. I fail to see why one should deny Northerners fair prices only for the profit of some greedy vets.

I seriously fail to understand in what scenario something like that would ever happen, lol. I'm not proposing to delete all rare items from the SFI servers, in case you tought i did. 
I also fail to understand in what way "greedy vets" would profit from something like this.
Seriously, explain the process to me please.

Edited by Davih

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As always, when i post something that i think is a good idea for the community, even if it goes against my personal playstile and economy interests, and i want things that i'm currently doing to be nerfed, people find a way to twist it so much as to make it appear like i'm doing it for my own personal gain. It's seriously unbelievable.

Do you REALLY want to talk about me? about what are my current problems in the game? Let's do it then.

I have way too many golds and i don't know how to spend them anymore. I have all the possible supreme tools that i can need on both servers, i can buy all the scale, imbue and literally anything that i need or want with no economic problems at all, and even if i somehow manage to spend even half of my money i can make tons more with very little effort because i know how to do that and have no particular difficulty doing so.

I still haggle prices and i don't "usually" give away my stuff because that's how i always played and that's the way i have fun playing, i have hoarder compulsions like many other people have on this game,  and no, i will not sac away all my rares to prove a point to you, because i love hoarding and selling, especially when i'm doing it for some reason. I even opened a huge market because that seemed like a fun idea.

I feel like i "completed" the part of the game that was of most interest to me, i can't upgrade my gear any further and i sometimes feel a lack of motivation for playing. So yeah, this is what "i would get" from a change like this one: an "endgame extension" that brings me back into wanting more and better tools that "actually exist" , which is not something that could be said for fantastic tools right now.

But this isn't the only thing it achieves, i mainly tought about how if could affect everyone's gameplay and both markets in a very positive way.


Now that we cleared the air about ME and what my current issues on the game are, maybe we can continue the discussion without those delusions of conspiracy aimed to make me more rich?
Or should i just give up any hope that any of my ideas will be taken seriously for what they are and not as a secret ploy?

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Be of good courage. Your ideas are not unreasonable. 

 

I like the idea of expanding the end game content for the mfg/trader sub role by making fantastic achievable with effort. Though I do shudder to think at the number of rares/supremes that will be churned out in pursuit of higher tiers.   We need a way of sinking those.  Much better skill rewards or maybe sleep bonus for saccing rare/supreme might do it. Could also go the route of saccing 20 rares the gods give you back a single supreme, etc. I'm sure there are some good ideas out there. Could also play with being able to choose the skill reward if enough high value supreme/fantastic stuff was sacced. Be a good way to get some of those final skill ticks to 100.

 

Non-premium players should be allowed rare rolls for mats but not tools/weapons etc in my view.

 

 

 

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-1 So you prtty much want guaranteed fantastic item because all you do is creation spawn 24/7 and call that endgame?

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I dunno, I think it's a novel idea but it would hurt free folks a bit too much.

 

Life is hard enough as a non-premium without having those random rares around to make a bit of copper, or just cherish in general (still got my first ever gold lump!).

 

Upping creating rates is unlikely to really fix any issues, it would just make rares the new meta.

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10 hours ago, Davih said:

The fact that the market will crush under the huge amount of rare/supreme tools that overflow the markets from several years in SFI(and some, like me, are just sleeping there, because they are actually playing in NFI now) ---> This is definitively a problem, what has always been nice about the NFI servers is the new and thriving economy based on the scarcity of rare/sup tools (also thanks to stealth-rare creation nerf) and of things in general. Ofc there are other things that would get hit really hard, like scale and imbue, but there's probably not much that can be done about that.

sfi silver is being bought for nfi silver at 1:1.25 ratio from what i can see in sfi trade, and most supremes are selling for 50+s on sfi, so you can already get like 70s - a gold in nfi for a supreme on sfi. the creation nerf was only for like the first two months of the server (although i'm not convinced it wasn't just because the server times were bugged out from lag and since rare creation is tied to server time, server lag reduces rare creation directly)

 

removing rares from free players doesn't really effect any hardcore spammers as you just prem accs to make supremes because that's where the money is and the alts pay for themselves in a day, it just makes newbies paying for their prem a lot harder

 

rares being ###### for imping generally amounts to all the bugs around the system that just straight up remove rare chance, i did a full scale set rare/1 supreme in about 2 weeks of grinding pas because i knew about these bugs and worked around them, ofc spamming is better but spamming uses way more mats and gives near 0 skill so i don't really see it as unbalanced unless you're doing some 9 alt industrial assembly line

 

10 hours ago, Davih said:

Spoiler: an example of like 40% of my tools on SFI just laying around and waiting to overflow the market again

if you've already got too much silver that you cant find things to buy, why would you flood the market lol

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I think OR and Etherdrifter expressed very well what I felt, and in better and calmer ways. I obviously reacted too snarky and want to say that I did not intend to offend Davih, whose SFI char I met a few times and who was a friendly and decent player. I want to apologize so far. Still I fail to see the problems SFI stocks of products and silver would cause to NFI in case of a merge.

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Rare and supreme items would not be deleted, would not become less useful than they are right now.
 

3 hours ago, Tor said:

-1 So you prtty much want guaranteed fantastic item because all you do is creation spawn 24/7 and call that endgame?

You call them "garaunteed"  , how is 1 every 64 on AVERAGE and completely random a garauntee of anything? I just want them to be actually obtainable and not only spawned or basically a chimera.
And no, that's not what i do 24/7, i just said i did that a lot, but again, hanks for judging, lol.

 

2 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

sfi silver is being bought for nfi silver at 1:1.25 ratio from what i can see in sfi trade, and most supremes are selling for 50+s on sfi, so you can already get like 70s - a gold in nfi for a supreme on sfi. the creation nerf was only for like the first two months of the server (although i'm not convinced it wasn't just because the server times were bugged out from lag and since rare creation is tied to server time, server lag reduces rare creation directly)


You cannot compare selling on a market and selling the silvers for silvers on another servers to actually clashing two markets together.
The nerf was never completely rolled back (maybe slightly lowered, but not 100% sure on that), i still average 1 rare every 7-800 well timed crafts, the past average used to be like less than 300, you of all people should know that, lol. And it was probably not a problem of lag, because you would get your inspirations on the regular 2hrs average as before when doing non-creation stuff like chopping,mining,farming, praying.

 

2 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

removing rares from free players doesn't really effect any hardcore spammers as you just prem accs to make supremes because that's where the money is and the alts pay for themselves in a day, it just makes newbies paying for their prem a lot harder

As i already said, i never cared too much about this specific part of the suggestion anyway, was just an idea to at least tie rare spamming with many accounts to some sort of money sink, but if nobody likes it, whatever, i take it back, lol.
 

2 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

rares being ###### for imping generally amounts to all the bugs around the system that just straight up remove rare chance, i did a full scale set rare/1 supreme in about 2 weeks of grinding pas because i knew about these bugs and worked around them, ofc spamming is better but spamming uses way more mats and gives near 0 skill so i don't really see it as unbalanced unless you're doing some 9 alt industrial assembly line

The point is the fact that no casual/new player would ever decide to spam creation for rares, while it will most likely improve something very often, and they would get more rares this way. I'm not saying to make it better than creation, but at least tune it to become equally productive in terms of rares, so that people improving can at least have the same chance to make a rare than someone spamming creation for it.

 

2 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

if you've already got too much silver that you cant find things to buy, why would you flood the market lol

I'm not saying i would, even if i can't rule that out in case i happen to need more silvers for some reason, that was an example of supreme tools overload, i said people in general would do that.

Edited by Davih

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12 minutes ago, Davih said:

You call them "garaunteed"  , how is 1 every 64 on AVERAGE and completely random a garauntee of anything? I just want them to be actually obtainable and not only spawned or basically a chimera.
And no, that's not what i do 24/7, i just said i did that a lot, but again, hanks for judging, lol.

So with this suggestion you not going for "getting the fantastic eventually, if i no life 24/7 on 6 premmed alts, hard enough"? Sorry, for me that's how it looks like so that's why i don't like it

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8 minutes ago, Tor said:

So with this suggestion you not going for "getting the fantastic eventually, if i no life 24/7 on 6 premmed alts, hard enough"? Sorry, for me that's how it looks like so that's why i don't like it


I would be happy enough to just see them around in the market without making them myself, sure, i did rare spamming and i will probably do it again because i have fun doing it "while playing" (and not instead of playing).

But again, it all comes down on you judging me for my supposed greed, i really just want an opportunity to have them and go forward with my tool progression in the game.
i'm open to other suggestions, you want to put more fantastic bones randomly dropped while doing other actions or hunting? as rifts rewards at 50k points? Sure, any of it is fine, just put them in the game in some meritocratic way please.

Edited by Davih

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5 minutes ago, Davih said:


I would be happy enough to just see them around in the market without making them myself, sure, i did rare spamming and i will probably do it again because i have fun doing it "while playing" (and not instead of playing).

But again, it all comes down on you judging me for my supposed greed, i really just want an opportunity to have them and go forward with my tool progression in the game.
i'm open to other suggestions, you want to put more fantastic bones randomly dropped while doing other actions or hunting? as rifts rewards at 50k points? Sure, any of it is fine, just put them in the game in some meritocratic way please.

Oh yeah, it's all comming down to how awful i am with my judging. Everyone else would want fantastic as well, it's not just you. I just don't like the suggestion that comes from the same old and never changed motivation, simple as that.

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4 hours ago, GoldFever said:

Be of good courage. Your ideas are not unreasonable. 

 

I like the idea of expanding the end game content for the mfg/trader sub role by making fantastic achievable with effort. Though I do shudder to think at the number of rares/supremes that will be churned out in pursuit of higher tiers.   We need a way of sinking those.  Much better skill rewards or maybe sleep bonus for saccing rare/supreme might do it. Could also go the route of saccing 20 rares the gods give you back a single supreme, etc. I'm sure there are some good ideas out there. Could also play with being able to choose the skill reward if enough high value supreme/fantastic stuff was sacced. Be a good way to get some of those final skill ticks to 100.

 

Non-premium players should be allowed rare rolls for mats but not tools/weapons etc in my view.

 

 

 

Yeah, there are several ways we can play around to sacrifice rare/supremes for better rewards, but the problem would be telling apart a crap rare like chopped garlic from a good rare like an hatchet., coding all the categories and give different rewards for them would an odd and arbitrary work, saccing 20 rares for a supreme is a cute idea, but i don't think it would fly, also doing with saccing is probably not the best since saccing is usually "everything disappers into nothing" and if anything goes wrong or gets bugged it would a pretty sad moment.

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Just now, Tor said:

Oh yeah, it's all comming down to how awful i am with my judging. Everyone else would want fantastic as well, it's not just you. I just don't like the suggestion that comes from the same old and never changed motivation, simple as that.


I'm not judging the quality or the legitimacy of your judging, i am just stating that you are in fact really just judging me.

I would be actually happy to know that other people want fantastics as well, because it really seems like i only do sometimes, lol.

What is the same old and never changed motivation btw? i'm confused at this point.

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+1.
I think that the gap between the possibility of obtaining a supreme or a fantastic actually is too big. I am almost sure that by introducing another tier of rarity and by lowering the gap between the tiers would bring new life to the game. Actually players are forced to consider the middle tier - supreme one - the best thing they will ever get when there is a final one - the fantastic - that is not even considered because it is almost impossible to reach.
Introducing a new tier would be awsome, but even without that, at least reducing the gap between a supreme and a fantastic could bring back players and could encourage the others to stay, revitalizing the economy and and the whole game :)

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1 minute ago, Davih said:


I'm not judging the quality or the legitimacy of your judging, i am just stating that you are in fact really just judging me.

I would be actually happy to know that other people want fantastics as well, because it really seems like i only do sometimes, lol.

What is the same old and never changed motivation btw? i'm confused at this point.

Ok you are stating and i am judging. I really won't sleep tonight thinking about you

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Just now, Tor said:

Ok you are stating and i am judging. I really won't sleep tonight thinking about you


I'll try to explain it better.

You are not commenting "on the suggestion".

Your comment says "you want this thing for yourself and not for others, therefore i don't like it"

This is not a comment on the suggestion, it's a comment against me, that's the fact.

I'm not saying that my feelings are hurt, i'm saying that you should judge the idea, not me, lol.

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Just now, Davih said:


I'll try to explain it better.

You are not commenting "on the suggestion".

Your comment says "you want this thing for yourself and not for others, therefore i don't like it"

This is not a comment on the suggestion, it's a comment against me, that's the fact.

I'm not saying that my feelings are hurt, i'm saying that you should judge the idea, not me, lol.

"I don't like the idea that favors the 24/7 creation spawn on 6 premed alts" - Did i string this togather well enough, so you can't recognise yourself in it?

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