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Darnok

Destructible armors & Economical loop & Priests

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Hi Darnok, I absolutely get that you want to improve some pieces, I'd love to see a suggestion about how improving could be improved (see what I did there?)

 

Currently it's a range of 2-5 items that are needed in a minigame of improve/repair. 

 

Would love to see how you could visualise this being improved! 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Archaed said:

Hi Darnok, I absolutely get that you want to improve some pieces, I'd love to see a suggestion about how improving could be improved (see what I did there?)

 

Currently it's a range of 2-5 items that are needed in a minigame of improve/repair. 

 

Would love to see how you could visualise this being improved! 

 

 

 

I already did suggest that, I even suggested adding more tools and seasonal ingredients, but you need to search for "improve", "minigame", "mini-game" or "seasonal" posts to find my ideas.

I will not paste links here, because you know who can merge again 🙂

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They won't merge, but I'm looking for an idea that isn't seasonal, can you please link it? 

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2 hours ago, Darnok said:

If performing actions from skill set that you have chosen is torture... there is something wrong with game at least with part where you improve items? 🙂

 

No, improving the hundreds of passive storage items on my deed would be torture. But apparently if I don't do it I'm going to lose all of my stuff so hey, that's cool I guess.

 

2 hours ago, Darnok said:

In how many threads have some of you tried to convince me that Wurm is "game of waiting", so?

 

Just like fighting, you take random damage and without healing skill and consumable potions or LT weapon you have to waste time resting, so what's the problem?

It seems to me that all types of crafting should have some risk and danger.

 

Because you're suggesting that the greatest blacksmith in the world is going to stick his bare hand into the forge, do you not see how stupid that is? I do carpentry in real life. Do you know how many times I've cut myself on a saw or smashed my finger with a hammer? None, because I pay attention to what I'm doing. Do you know how many times I've gotten hurt in a fight? Every time, because getting hit hurts. Fighting hurts, crafting doesn't.

 

3 hours ago, Darnok said:

Yes, but why are some items more in demand than others? I wonder about this problem if you haven't noticed yet.

 

If you're still wondering about this problem than you do not have the ability to read.

 

Weaponsmithing - In demand because it takes forever to level and most people don't want to do it

 

"Hunting" - Not in demand because farming and AH

 

Natural Substances - In demand due to dyes

 

First Aid - Not in demand because pve isn't dangerous

 

Masonry - In demand because most people don't enjoy making tens of thousands of mortar/bricks but people gotta build

 

I'm sure you don't get the point still but I'm not typing out more examples for you.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Kellen said:

 

No, improving the hundreds of passive storage items on my deed would be torture. But apparently if I don't do it I'm going to lose all of my stuff so hey, that's cool I guess.

 

So the fact that I need good quality armor that will give me better protection, so that I don't lose too much HP in combat is a bad idea? Hmm...

 

4 minutes ago, Kellen said:

 

Because you're suggesting that the greatest blacksmith in the world is going to stick his bare hand into the forge, do you not see how stupid that is? I do carpentry in real life. Do you know how many times I've cut myself on a saw or smashed my finger with a hammer? None, because I pay attention to what I'm doing. Do you know how many times I've gotten hurt in a fight? Every time, because getting hit hurts. Fighting hurts, crafting doesn't.

 

It just means you're a better carpenter than a fighter.

But back to the game, the game may offer a 1 hour long progress bar or 60x1 minute long progress bars that will slow down your actions, or some other "attractions" that makes it more difficult for you to do what you are doing.

I prefer the last option.

 

4 minutes ago, Kellen said:

 

If you're still wondering about this problem than you do not have the ability to read.

 

Weaponsmithing - In demand because it takes forever to level and most people don't want to do it

 

"Hunting" - Not in demand because farming and AH

 

Natural Substances - In demand due to dyes

 

First Aid - Not in demand because pve isn't dangerous

 

Masonry - In demand because most people don't enjoy making tens of thousands of mortar/bricks but people gotta build

 

I'm sure you don't get the point still but I'm not typing out more examples for you.

 

 

 

So if leveling fishing, FS or butchering would take forever prices of fish, meat, fur and animal parts would be higher?


According to the examples you gave yourself, I don't think so, because these game elements do not have any use, and usefulness and need to use are main factors determining demand for a given item in my opinion.

Wurm rather confirms this opinion, because the items for which there is low demand are practically not needed for anything.

Which is what I am writing about almost from the beginning of this thread... to create more loops that would generate more demand on some items and balance flow of items and money in game.

 

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9 minutes ago, Kellen said:

<snip>

 

About the demand part, i agree that it's the people, their play style and personal preference that creates the demand. 

Fact that large percentage of players likes mining makes the resources created by them abundant. They are doing nothing wrong, they like to mine so they mine. They can't sell their wares because everyone else and their dogs are doing the same. Not because there is something wrong with the economy but because a lot of people are doing it.

Not all parts of the game are as fun and as attractive to some as others and if majority people don't care about dyes because the default textures are amazing, next suggestion from @OP should be "remove all textures so that people are forced to buy paint".

 

Artificially creating demand is exactly this:

Company wants to create more demand for silver coins in web shop. Company doubles the upkeep and premium for silver prices.

By his logic, players are now spending 2x more because the demand for silver coins in the system has doubled. In practice we all know how that would end.

 

Demand shouldn't be equal for everything and not every skill has to be equally rewarding. Economy in Wurm, as it is, adjusts to supply and demand each way, as it does everywhere else. Artificial money sinks and artificial demand because "everyone gets a star for participating" is just plain wrong and doesn't work in any economy in the world, real or virtual.

 

If everyone has to have a guaranteed income, destroying another player's things is not the way to do it.

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Welp, I'm tired of this. You're right, everyone else is wrong.

 

So excited to never leave my deed when this is implemented.

Edited by Kellen

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1 hour ago, Locath said:

 

About the demand part, i agree that it's the people, their play style and personal preference that creates the demand. 

 

It is the rules of the game that are responsible for demand, and players adapt their style of play to make the best use of these rules to achieve their goals and benefits.

But if there is no balance, there is a risk that some players will feel they are not rewarded and will complain (see AH update, which hasn't done anything terrible except for lowering the reward breeders).

 

1 hour ago, Locath said:

Not all parts of the game are as fun and as attractive to some as others and if majority people don't care about dyes because the default textures are amazing, next suggestion from @OP should be "remove all textures so that people are forced to buy paint".

 

 

You did not guess.
Because if I were to find a use for dyes, I would find some new use cases and maybe even more uses for the same skill set.

 

1 hour ago, Locath said:

Demand shouldn't be equal for everything and not every skill has to be equally rewarding.

 

 

If your goal is to narrow the player population down to those who like the most rewarding skill, then this is the path to achieving it.

 

1 hour ago, Locath said:

 

Artificial money sinks and artificial demand because "everyone gets a star for participating" is just plain wrong and doesn't work in any economy in the world, real or virtual.

 

 

We write about the game, everything is artificial here, the fact that deed requires an upkeep is artificial, premium as well.

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Just now, Darnok said:

It is the rules of the game that are responsible for demand, and players adapt their style of play to make the best use of these rules to achieve their goals and benefits.

What???? No, no rules can make a player buy anything, which is exactly what demand means. You either want to buy something, creating demand or you don't. No game rules or systems are forcing you to do any of this.

 

1 minute ago, Darnok said:

You did not guess.

 

Sure you won't admit it but this is exactly what you are suggesting. Profession X has less demand so lets shaft everyone around to create that demand. Be it armors or dyes or flutes or anything at all.

 

3 minutes ago, Darnok said:

If your goal is to narrow the player population down to those who like the most rewarding skill, then this is the path to achieving it.

 

So what you are saying is that the system that worked for over a decade has narrowed the population of armor smiths and there aren't any left because players only need to reimp the armor once every couple of weeks instead of buying a new one every day? I could bet about threefiddy that there are some armor smiths out there. Many of them don't even want to sell anything, they got the skill high enough to be self-sufficient.

 

6 minutes ago, Darnok said:

We write about the game, everything is artificial here, the fact that deed requires an upkeep is artificial, premium as well.

 

Yeah, you know what i meant. Creating demand artificially leads to famine and people giving up on the choices they would normally make to be able to sustain themselves.

Of course potatoes are created and abundant but take them away and it creates higher demand. It also causes famine and people escaping that, setting to places where they don't have to suffer.

 

If a new player, who relies almost solely on their gear, before they can rely on their skills, has to spend money which they don't have to be able to survive, how likely are they to open their wallet and buy the same armour next day do you think?

 

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22 minutes ago, Locath said:

What???? No, no rules can make a player buy anything, which is exactly what demand means. You either want to buy something, creating demand or you don't. No game rules or systems are forcing you to do any of this.

 

I will repeat myself:

"The fact that weapons are more expensive is due to the fact that it is impossible to "live" in Wurm without them (THIS IS IN GAME RULES BASED, what you like doesn't matter, game forces you to buy or make weapon).

 

If each player could kill any mob with his bare hands, I could buy a 90 ql weapon with 4 spells for a few fish.

If spells cast on armor would increase running speed and stamina regeneration, you would buy a 5-speed horse for 5c. (I mean, you wouldn't buy it, because nobody would want to breed such horses)

If a combat-trait on horse would add a lot of CR to player, then armor would be worthless, and no one would care how long 90 ql 9 parts are made.

 

In Wurm only those items are expensive without which players cannot function."

 

The items that the game forces the player to possess are expensive, and such as furs are worthless because you don't have to use them.

 

Quote

 

Sure you won't admit it but this is exactly what you are suggesting. Profession X has less demand so lets shaft everyone around to create that demand. Be it armors or dyes or flutes or anything at all.

 

This is how economy in games is working if you haven't noticed 🙂

 

Quote

 

So what you are saying is that the system that worked for over a decade has narrowed the population of armor smiths and there aren't any left because players only need to reimp the armor once every couple of weeks instead of buying a new one every day? I could bet about threefiddy that there are some armor smiths out there. Many of them don't even want to sell anything, they got the skill high enough to be self-sufficient.

 

The system worked for so long that there are only players left in the game who like the same thing and game cannot develop further, because adding any new option without punishing the most rewarded skill sets is impossible at this point.

 

 

Quote

 

Yeah, you know what i meant. Creating demand artificially leads to famine and people giving up on the choices they would normally make to be able to sustain themselves.

Of course potatoes are created and abundant but take them away and it creates higher demand. It also causes famine and people escaping that, setting to places where they don't have to suffer.

 

This is a game and it is based on artificial rules, everything is artificial here, if you started to perceive Wurm's rules as natural that only means you have been playing for too long 😄

 

Quote

If a new player, who relies almost solely on their gear, before they can rely on their skills, has to spend money which they don't have to be able to survive, how likely are they to open their wallet and buy the same armour next day do you think?

 

 

Well, that's why you need to give a reward to those who need armor, but that takes a bit from the armor makers.

And I think it will be easier to balance the exchange of consumables/destructible items than indestructible armor and potions/smith outfit.

 

Edited by Darnok

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10 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

what you like doesn't matter

 

 

As if what YOU like matters...

Besides... anyone can go to an impalong and get their gear imped to 70ql, and enchanted.
This community is not money driven.
To the point the possibility to make real cash in this game was disallowed.

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2 hours ago, Darnok said:

So if leveling fishing, FS or butchering would take forever prices of fish, meat, fur and animal parts would be higher?

Have you leveled any of these skills???? You can hit 50 fishing in a day with a bunch of nets and some shallow water. It is not that hard to grind. FS you can get to 70 in 2 or 3 days, and butchering you can hit 50 in 2 days or so. They really aren't that hard to level. I mean after 70fs it takes a big hit but in a pve environment 70 is good enough to survive. 

 

19 minutes ago, Darnok said:

The fact that weapons are more expensive is due to the fact that it is impossible to "live" in Wurm without them (THIS IS IN GAME RULES BASED, what you like doesn't matter, game forces you to buy or make weapon).

That's not true at all lol. A Priest of Fo with 60 faith and atleast 30 favor is ignored by hostile creatures (excluding dragons, trolls, lava fiends, goblins and scorpions). Riding around on a horse you can easily get from point a to point b and survive without a weapon.

 

 

You need to understand that Wurm isn't 100% economy based. You can play this game and be entirely self sufficient and never send a player a dime. You can breed your own horses and get the best 5 speed (or whatever the new equivalent is), you can grind up your FS and Butchering to get some good hides to make some leather armor. You can grind your mining to get high quality ores to then grind smithing with. Whether it be black smithing, armor smithing, jewelry smithing etc. You can then use these skills (AND ALL THE OTHER SKILLS) to gear up and take on the world however you want to. It won't be done in a day, and for that matter it probably won't be done in a year (unless you have time to play 20 hours a day). But that's part of the fun. If it was something that could be done in a day then how would the game be any fun? It would be like logging in, buying level 99 skills, and saying "well I did it, now what?" As I have stated previously, please just play the game. Ignore the economy for awhile and just see what you can achieve on your own.

 

5 minutes ago, Cecci said:

Besides... anyone can go to an impalong and get their gear imped to 70ql, and enchanted.
This community is not money driven

I have lost track of the amount of things I have imped to 70-90 for people for free. Or the amount of spare 90ql enchanted tools I have given away to players or donated to impalongs to be used for rewards. At VirusMD's impalong I easily donated 60s worth of rare things to be given away to people. That plus all the imping I did there. All of this was done for no currency, and I can tell you that I was not the only one doing it. Look at the amount of impalongs that get hosted a year. 

 

 

Edited by brattygirl
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2 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I will repeat myself:

"The fact that weapons are more expensive is due to the fact that it is impossible to "live" in Wurm without them (THIS IS IN GAME RULES BASED, what you like doesn't matter, game forces you to buy or make weapon).

Are you perhaps confusing demand with cost of living?

 

2 minutes ago, Darnok said:

This is how economy in games is working if you haven't noticed 🙂

No and i honestly can't think of any game where player is punished because demand for something is low. I have played many, many games and i can't think of an example where if everyone produces woolen loin cloths and no one wants to use them, they are equally punished for not buying those items because they simply don't need them.

 

Please tell me i misunderstand this or that there are some examples of "there is no demand so everyone gets punished" in games i might have missed.

 

5 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

The system worked for so long that there are only players left in the game who like the same thing and game cannot develop further, because adding any new option without punishing the most rewarded skill sets is impossible at this point.

Counterargument: The game survived for so long because of exactly this. Without that persistence of items created and the attachment we build with them, there are sooo many games out there with deliver exactly what you are suggesting but using newer technologies and having a massive advertising budget?

 

35 minutes ago, Darnok said:

This is a game and it is based on artificial rules, everything is artificial here, if you started to perceive Wurm's rules as natural that only means you have been playing for too long 😄

Again, you don't seem to know what demand means.

 

36 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Well, that's why you need to give a reward to those who need armor, but that takes a bit from the armor makers.

And I think it will be easier to balance the exchange of consumables/destructible items than indestructible armor and potions/smith outfit.

So the issue on hand being that armors aren't getting destroyed so lets punish the armor smiths?

 

Honestly, knowing the WO community, if this was to be implemented, i can nearly guarantee that those who would decide to suffer through this would rather get their armour creation skills to 70s rather than search, wait and pay a 3rd party every day just to be able to hunt.

 

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7 hours ago, Darnok said:

I know, I also make some items and I can see how it works, I have 80 level skill and repeating the same action, pressing H (imp) and G (repair) is killing me.

the vast majority of the community actually enjoys this to an extent - they can do this mindless task in game and watch tv or listen to music at the same time.  its a core mechanic to the game, same with repair and decay. Just because you dislike it, it does not mean it needs changed. You are not the only one playing this game.

 

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8 hours ago, Darnok said:

It seems to me that all types of crafting should have some risk and danger.

 

I agree with this kid for a change

 

BRING BACK 50kgs of scrap iron !

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3 minutes ago, CreZ said:

BRING BACK 50kgs of scrap iron !

+1 But make it explode randomly while in inventory!

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3 hours ago, Locath said:

 

No and i honestly can't think of any game where player is punished because demand for something is low. I have played many, many games and i can't think of an example where if everyone produces woolen loin cloths and no one wants to use them, they are equally punished for not buying those items because they simply don't need them.

 

Please tell me i misunderstand this or that there are some examples of "there is no demand so everyone gets punished" in games i might have missed.

 

Let's think ...
Star craft 2 often changed unit stats for different races when one race became too popular, there was high demand for that race, and the others was not so good, so it punished those who played more popular, races 🙂

Any moba game is punishing players who play popular characters, lowering the abilities of those characters for whom there is high demand, and increasing the power of those characters that no one wants or completely remakes them.

Eve online how many times have statistics of ships and weapons, and other items changed to artificially increase or lower demand for something that players considered weak or too strong?

Even single player games can punish players and reduce the demand for something that is too popular, in new updates 🙂

 

Quote

Counterargument: The game survived for so long because of exactly this. Without that persistence of items created and the attachment we build with them, there are sooo many games out there with deliver exactly what you are suggesting but using newer technologies and having a massive advertising budget?


You can survive for several years while being close to starvation, and you can progress and grow without worrying about tomorrow. Which option is closer to Wurm?

And what was development and growth of Eve online in which player "flies with what he can afford to lose" and nobody cares about something as artificial as attachment to pixels?

 

Edited by Darnok

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8 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Star craft 2 often changed unit stats for different races when one race became too popular

Not an MMORPG or Sandbox, not an economy.

 

9 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Any moba game is punishing players who play popular characters, lowering the abilities of those characters for whom there is high demand, and increasing the power of those characters that no one wants or completely remakes them.

 

Not an MMORPG or Sandbox, not an economy.

 

17 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Eve online how many times have statistics of ships and weapons, and other items changed to artificially increase or lower demand for something that players considered weak or too strong?

 

Without gutting existing systems. More use for iron <> more demand for armor or destroying existing ones.

No game to my knowledge forced players to make more of the same, vital for survival item just because there was no demand for it.

 

21 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Even single player games can punish players and reduce the demand for something that is too popular, in new updates 🙂

Not an MMO. None that i can think of. On example of ARK, you got more things you can make out of thatch now but you don't have to recreate the same thatch roof every couple of minutes IF YOU KEEP MAINTAINING IT AS WE DO IN WURM NOW.

 

18 minutes ago, Darnok said:

And what was development and growth of Eve online in which player "flies with what he can afford to lose" and nobody cares about something as artificial as attachment to pixels?

In EVE it's open world PvP, you lose stuff if you die to players or NPC. Similarly here. Try Defiance, you die, you need new armor. There are already systems which accommodate your perfect gameplay.

 

Many of those arguments that you so cheerfully type up to come up with more solutions to non-existing problems are the very reason we play WO and not for instance EVE.

 

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25 minutes ago, Darnok said:

nobody cares about something as artificial as attachment to pixels?

we do, some normal items are quite unique

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42 minutes ago, Finnn said:

we do, some normal items are quite unique

This, so much this.

I have items which, if lost, would possibly make me quit the game. Some of them are worth close to nothing for anyone else. We saw people rage quit the game because a boat mine cave tile collapsed on a knarr on Release which had the guy's stuff in it while he was helping making the tunnel. We had countless examples of people quitting for this exact reason.

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Fixing the meat price is easy, make pan filling easy. This would cause meat and veggies to skyrocket overnight.

 

Ok so eve, cool, I know a bit about eve.

 

Firstly eve is a big game relative to wurm, they have quite a lot of devs, and they are currently going through a period of scarecity and economic rebalancing because the economy got too out of whack it is hard to balance.

 

"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" is a very true mantra in eve and for good reason, you might die but you usually know the risks of death and the game isn't designed to randomly punish you or make you rebuy your stuff over time. In eve there is a stable market of goods, many professions are suboptimal or basically pointless these days but the game revolves around a very active economy. They do sometimes mix up the game to change the economy but the game is very much focused around players doing the most efficient activity to make the most money. 

 

The first and major point to this economic balance is they have control over the monetary supply, there are sinks and faucets in the game where isk is created through killing npcs and various other activities and consumed on fees. They then also have a secondary premium currency of plex that is used for gametime and can be sold on the in game market, this can also be used to monitor the health of the economy.

 

The critical difference in eve manufacturing is that the majority of the value in ships and modules is in the resources used to build them. There is some value from researching blueprints but margins in eve on most production are below 30%. In eve manufacturing is automated, you start a job and it completes in a specified time period, you do have restrictions on number of slots but 2 people can easily build more than enough ships to support an active pvp group of over 50 people. Contrasting this to wurm the majority of the value is in the work put in to creation, with some owing to the skill. During the start of NFI there was a lot of value in higher skills but now a high skill mason could probably make more silver per hour making mortar than a 90 skill weaponsmith imping weapons.

 

All products in eve are not unique, there are no rares, signatures or qualtiy a ship is a ship, there are tiers of ships and unique ships but they are a uniform product with a functional in game market. The modular nature of ships also helps this as you have a large variation on which enchants, runes etc people want on items and once added they cannot be removed. Please propose working ui for an in game market that would work well for wurm, this is something I'd genuinely love to see.

 

Eve has destruction, in eve when you die in pvp or pve your ship explodes, it is gone and all you get for it is insurance and salvage and 50% of the modules equipped. If you die in pve you can usually (except abyssals) recover your stuff that dropped but you will still take a loss. That being said there are very few pve deaths caused by pve alone, sure there are some risks in abyssals but the majority of the pve is ratting and the danger there is that you are doing it in space where hostile players can attack you, PVP is fundamental to the loss balance of eve. 

 

 

If you wanted to create an eve like economy in wurm, in my opinion you'd need:

  1. A market 
  2. Consumption of goods

In an ideal world I'd advocate for a loosely coupled new currency, but none of this is really achievable in less than several years anyway of full time work when the game just needs iterative changes, fixes and improvements with some new features imo.

 

As for consumption I get that you are trying to achieve this but I feel all of you ways of doing this are making the game harsh and less fun to play or at least more tedious. If deeds costed bricks and mortar or planks to maintain through an upkeep chest or something this could be a way that you could bring in consumption. If you are so desperate to increase food usage make it so the upkeep chest of a deed has to have food in it to gain sb overnight or to feed guards. Try when you think of ideas to realise most players like the grind and want to focus on that though. When games add tedious or overly punishing content players either don't interact with that content or quit if they are forced to.

Edited by Lethyria
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6 minutes ago, Lethyria said:

Fixing the meat price is easy, make pan filling easy. This would cause meat and veggies to skyrocket overnight.

 

Talk about hitting the nail on the head.

 

Currently people have hundreds of thousands of meat in their FSBs waiting to be used.

If panfilling was done in such way  that we could fill all containers in a stack with one item from a different stack, shortage of meat and veggies would happen within days.

 

THAT is a solution to lack of demand!

 

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2 minutes ago, Darnok said:
Quote


This community is not money driven.

 

 

If that is true then what is this?

 

https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/forum/407-northern-freedom-isles-market/

 

The community has to be seen as a whole. You only see things as a part. Yes some players partake in the economy but not everyone. If everyone was so focused on only money then what is this??? (This also doesn't include all the posts in trade chat of players giving away items for free, whether it be tools, pelts, armor etc).

or wait, what is this?

Or this?

Or This?

 

I can search the forums a little more and find some more evidence if you would like. If you put some time into it and search, you would see that wurm isn't 100% one way or the other. Until you understand that I don't think you should be making such game changing suggestions. 

 

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14 hours ago, brattygirl said:

 

The community has to be seen as a whole. You only see things as a part. Yes some players partake in the economy but not everyone. If everyone was so focused on only money then what is this??? (This also doesn't include all the posts in trade chat of players giving away items for free, whether it be tools, pelts, armor etc).

or wait, what is this?

Or this?

Or This?

 

I can search the forums a little more and find some more evidence if you would like. If you put some time into it and search, you would see that wurm isn't 100% one way or the other. Until you understand that I don't think you should be making such game changing suggestions. 

 

 

I'm showing you how people behave on a daily basis, and you showed me how they behave during the holidays.

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