Destructible armors & Economical loop & Priests

[Borstaskor 503]

I'm waiting for the day Darnok makes an actually good suggestion. As far as I'm concerned, his suggestions are either really trash, giving off the aura that he's not even playing the game or is simply idea that'd take way too much dev time for it to be worth what little it would offer the game.

And after another attempt, this is still not the day of an actually good suggestion. I don't think one will ever come.

At what point do we just ban him from making suggestions, if not after like 30 clown suggestions? Is anyone legit still thinking that there's a small chance that he'll actually come up with a good suggestions so we shouldn't ban him from making suggestions for that tiny chance (a chance I personally believe doesn't exist)?

I'm all for freedom of speech and all that, but there's only so much benefit of the doubt I can give out before starting to suspect that someone is trolling on purpose and he's crossed my personal line for that a long time ago. Feel free to think that he's not trolling on purpose but a huge good luck to you if you want to try to convince me of that.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Borstaskor

[Archaed 2,280]

Identifying issue - Wurm is a game that has few items actually leaving the game 

I'd give this a good score, it's something that's been known for a while, and has had its issues in the past, removal of RMT has seen the more top end stuff actually go up in value as a result

 

Action suggested - Force item destruction through durabiltity

 

I'd give this a low score, it's a poor solution to the issue identified as it's discounting the work and time invested, and in a long term game like wurm, the attachment. 

 

I think I, and many others see where you're trying to come from, some way of forcing items to leave the economy, but this aint it chief. It's not a system that rewards usage of the item, nor does it reward removal. You're actively punishing people for using their items, and that's a no-go in any design. 

 

Ultimately, the problem is -again- a lack of understanding of the core game. It feels like someone who has briefly checked things over and started redoing it all without actually understanding how it all works. Take the time and play the game, don't try to suggest improvements as they come to mind. Spend time understanding mechanics, economies, and systems, ask questions instead of making demands, learn the game and find areas it can be shaped. 

 

 

[Kellen 77]

3 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

Prices of weapons are correct, but for armors... can you post any links to them or it is from single merchant or just your invention?

It is not hard to find armor sets 90ql for 5s.

 

And the fact that 9 pieces of armor cost as much as 2-3 weapons of the same quality, rather confirms my thesis.

 

 

 

 

 

Weapons - 

 

Leather + Studded Leather Armor - 

 

Drake Hide - 

Chain + Plate Armor - 

 

If you can find 90 QL sets of armor for 5s on NFI let me know because I'll buy a set of each type but clearly you have no idea what you're talking about so I won't hold my breath.

 

These are the cheapest available on the first page as I'm not going to go digging through every single merchant ad on NFI when the vast majority are inactive.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Kellen
Cheapest on first page. Inc "You can find cheaper if you search more" from Doorknob

[Darnok 197]

4 hours ago, Kellen said:

 

Weapons - 

 

Leather + Studded Leather Armor - 

 

Drake Hide - 

Chain + Plate Armor - 

 

If you can find 90 QL sets of armor for 5s on NFI let me know because I'll buy a set of each type but clearly you have no idea what you're talking about so I won't hold my breath.

 

These are the cheapest available on the first page as I'm not going to go digging through every single merchant ad on NFI when the vast majority are inactive.

 

Glad you didn't made up these prices, but still my claim:
"And the fact that 9 pieces of armor cost as much as 2-3 weapons of the same quality"

remains true 🙂

 

And the fact that enchanted weapons cost a lot more makes it even worse.

On the one hand, from the point of view of armor smith, for which there are not so many protective spells to increase value and usefulness of armor.
On the other hand, for consumer point of view who has to buy both armor and weapon and earn money for it somehow.

 

Also updated OP - how to solve problem of rewards for hunters and not cause hyperinflation.

[Brattygirl 917]

Just now, Darnok said:

"And the fact that 9 pieces of armor cost as much as 2-3 weapons of the same quality"

remains true 🙂

But you don't understand the amount of time it takes to grind weapon smithing verses leather working, chain smithing etc. Do you even know the amount of effort it takes to grind any skill? Have you reached 50,70,90 in a skill? Some take a lot of effort, while others you can do in your sleep. The amount of effort it takes to grind the skill helps to determine the cost for the item. Since not as many players grind weapon smithing to 90, verses the large amount of players that has leather working at 90. You would know this if you played the game and grinded a skill. Please just take a few months to really experience the game. Attend a slaying, grind a skill to 90, do some of the journal goals, etc. Then come back to these suggestions after.

[Tomatoes 276]

heck, even grinding a skill to 70 is enough to get you a decent picture of the effort it takes. 

and you are missing a large part of the game - MMO - there is a community out there that can always use a hand somewhere. Attend an impalong one day, and you will find out that you dont need coin to get decent gear going.

 

[Archaed 2,280]

Okay, this is just clearly a troll now. We have all tried so hard with you Darnok, yet you refuse to listen. 

 

Congrats on getting everyone to take the bait

[Locath 523]

1 minute ago, brattygirl said:

verses the large amount of players that has leather working at 90.

 

This is another thing i feel @OP might not be aware of. LW not only doesn't require HQL materials but can be done in motion so if you travel as a passenger, the driver can't do a whole lot but a leatherworker can grind their skill along the way.

There are countless variables being painted with the same brush, comparing WS to armour related skills, materials, inner workings of each type of armor creation which are all vastly different and require different amount of time, effort and resources to master.

 

There are players who got their PAS to high 90s back in the days when we could only use steel to make plate armour (or scale but it wasn't as available before respawning of uniques so very few could grind PAS on that) simply because they could duplicate HQL steel with ease. This was only patched up few years ago and now we can use most if not all metals for that but things to consider are many:

 

1. accounts which are at or near 100 in the skill, obtained "back in the day".

2. accounts which now can use any metal to do the same but those still have to compete with loyal players (a.k.a. those evil veterans).

3. different types of armors, each having their own skill.

4. materials required and skills and tools needed to obtain those materials (for LW, a small cow herd will last forever without excessive butchering skill or fantastic/enchanted knife).

 

Suggestion being "you spent years grinding that skill to be able to re-imp your set are now wasted, go and grind mining/metallurgy or run around nekkid" shows how much thought was put in to this.

[Kellen 77]

2 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

Glad you didn't made up these prices, but still my claim:
"And the fact that 9 pieces of armor cost as much as 2-3 weapons of the same quality"

remains true 🙂

 

And the fact that enchanted weapons cost a lot more makes it even worse.

On the one hand, from the point of view of armor smith, for which there are not so many protective spells to increase value and usefulness of armor.
On the other hand, for consumer point of view who has to buy both armor and weapon and earn money for it somehow.

 

Also updated OP - how to solve problem of rewards for hunters and not cause hyperinflation.

 

Le shrug, you were claiming earlier that one weapon costs as much as a full set of armor.

 

It has been explained to you several times that the reason the price per piece of weapons vs armor is because Weaponsmithing is a harder (if not THE hardest) skill to level.

 

The reason enchanted weapons cost even more is because it is not just one high level skill (armorsmithing) going into the creation of the item but generally three (weaponsmithing, Fo Priest [high faith and channeling], and Vyn Priest [high faith and channeling]).

 

Should there be more useful armor enchants in the game? Sure. But that is not what you have been pointlessly arguing.

 

Raising money for said items is just part of the game. You either raise the skills yourself to MAKE the items (which I personally don't have the patience for) or you make other stuff to sell to pay for the items (which is the route I take as I can crank out tens of thousands of materials to sell in the time it would take to level Weapinsmithing)

Edited September 14, 2021 by Kellen

[Finnn 3,298]

Fallen Earth had nice "durability" system for items, it was called fatigue https://fallenearth.fandom.com/wiki/Fatigue

Items had condition of what we have here as damage taken on items, each repair was consuming some, tanking wasn't that cheap in other words with repairs and obviously more repairs and costs for restoring item-fatigue.

Items had tier levels, so higher end armors required alternative or identical armor to restore fatigue, obviously it's insane to ask for 3 scale sets to max fatigue on one.. but using alternative like ql90 x3 plate iron sets to cap fatigue on scale or rare/supreme or .. normal enchanted plate is perfectly reasonable and cheap, while at the same time it opens big demand on the market for just this.

Except.. wurm have creation/improving/repairing skills.. it's not as simplified as on FE.. (FE have only creation of armor/weapon types and tiers, no improving, besides restoring fatigue with similar tier gear or removing damage with repair kits)

 

As to rmt.. it killed wurm as something special, it used to be 1 of few games in that category, it's just subscription mmo right now, with 1 if not the slowest paced gameplay.

 

 

[Finnn 3,298]

On 9/13/2021 at 11:57 AM, Darnok said:

I suggest an economic experiment and a change only for armors, so that armor cannot be repaired after it has been upgraded to required quality.

 

Crafter after upgrading armor to appropriate quality, uses a seal or some similar action, and blocks any further possibility of repairing and improving armor.
Unsealed armor is treated as having ql 1.

 

Such a change would add a bit of variety and would be a good test of what economic system would be better for Wurm. The same as today that means indestructible items or the opposite.

 

As for rare, there are two possibilities:
- simply increase chance of rare armor when crafting to compensate adding this idea,
- or it should be possible to smelt armors (we also have smelting pots) to rare metal lumps, from which you can forge rare items, this action have 100% chance of success to make rare item.

 

EDIT

Economical loop

During the discussion, topic of economics and where capital flows appeared.

In my opinion, for game to be equally accessible to everyone, capital should flow in a loop so that a player with any set of skills has more or less a similar chance to get rich.

 

At the moment, I see the problem that items flow in one direction and capital flows in the opposite direction :

miner -> (black/weapon/armor)smith -> consumer (hunter, warrior, skill developing player)

 

On the way, of course, there are priests, sometimes a cook, but there is no closure and instead of a loop we have a straight line.

 

What could a hunter offer to miner or to smith?

- pelt (100ql available for free at the moment on NFI, can be obtained after killing dog with bare hands),

- meat, fish (high spear skill), furs, animal parts are worthless, because nobody needs them in large amounts and they can be obtained from animal farms,

- hides are pretty good, but from animal farm they can be gathered with even higher ql than from hunting wild animals,

 

My suggestion is to add burns for the (black/weapon/armor)smiths if they are not dressed in appropriate leather clothes and gloves near forge, the higher the quality of forge, the higher the temperature around it and the more burns.
The more difficult animal to kill, the thicker skin it should have, and the thicker the skin, the better it insulates against burns.

This outfit should be made of hides and not leather, since good quality leather can be made even from very easy to kill animals and in this outfit type of hides should matter as much as quality.

And this outfit should be made similar to a wooden staff, that means it cannot be repaired.

 

Now for the miners. Mining should generate hunger very quickly so that all this meat is eaten by someone.

 

The second idea is damage when mining metals from veins.
100ql metal mining is as safe as getting 10ql ore, wich is a bit weird. In reality the better quality of iron or coal is deeper, but since we do not have depth in mines, the chance that stones will fall on miner's head may depend on quality of vein.

The higher quality of vein, the higher chance of taking damage while mining, at 90ql vein chance for rocks fall and damage miner should be 90%, if skill mining is higher than the vein quality.

In any case where quality of vein is higher than miner's skill, chance of taking damage should be 100%. Little protection against some evil people, by the way.

 

Wounds obtained in this way should be resistant to LT weapon spell, only way to heal them should be a potion made from parts of different animals.

The more difficult animal to kill, the more quickly ingredients we get from it, should heal wounds of this type.

 

In this way, a character developing combat skills could be able to earn an upgrade of armor and weapons while hunting.

 

 

That alone is enough to ignore this thread and you instantly.

This is not that kind of game with classes and roles, the game lets you grind any skill and be any of them at the same time.

*exception is the priest / follower separation and their limitations

[Blacklotus 276]

Darmok I understand what you're saying but let me ask you this since you glossed over my question before.

How exactly do you think making armor destructible is going to fix any of the issues you brought up.

How exactly do you think making one of the more time consuming and expensive items in the game is going to fix an issue of them making more money than other people? 

Most of the suggestions made here just lump on more issues than any of this solves.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Blacklotus

[Darnok 197]

3 hours ago, brattygirl said:

But you don't understand the amount of time it takes to grind weapon smithing verses leather working, chain smithing etc.

 

I understand, but I don't CARE, because I am capitalists and capitalists are not interested in what it cost to produce this good, they are interested in the usefulness of that good.

Communists, on the other hand...

 

3 hours ago, Tomatoes said:

heck, even grinding a skill to 70 is enough to get you a decent picture of the effort it takes. 

and you are missing a large part of the game - MMO - there is a community out there that can always use a hand somewhere. Attend an impalong one day, and you will find out that you dont need coin to get decent gear going.

 

 

Exactly, if we have an MMO with a community, it seems to me that it would be fair if each player could choose a style of gameplay that suits him and a well-designed game should offer that player a fair amount of equal opportunities for economic growth. Thanks to that, regardless of what set of skills he have chosen for himself, he should be able to accumulate a certain amount of money with them, how much it will be should depend on his activity in game, not on the type of skills he have chosen.
Does wurm offer this choice? Nope.

Can my OP idea take a step in that direction? Yes, a little step, but you have to start with something.

 

2 hours ago, Archaed said:

Okay, this is just clearly a troll now. We have all tried so hard with you Darnok, yet you refuse to listen. 

 

Congrats on getting everyone to take the bait

 

Search for balance is not trolling.

 

2 hours ago, Locath said:

 

This is another thing i feel @OP might not be aware of. LW not only doesn't require HQL materials but can be done in motion so if you travel as a passenger, the driver can't do a whole lot but a leatherworker can grind their skill along the way.

There are countless variables being painted with the same brush, comparing WS to armour related skills, materials, inner workings of each type of armor creation which are all vastly different and require different amount of time, effort and resources to master.

 

There are players who got their PAS to high 90s back in the days when we could only use steel to make plate armour (or scale but it wasn't as available before respawning of uniques so very few could grind PAS on that) simply because they could duplicate HQL steel with ease. This was only patched up few years ago and now we can use most if not all metals for that but things to consider are many:

 

1. accounts which are at or near 100 in the skill, obtained "back in the day".

2. accounts which now can use any metal to do the same but those still have to compete with loyal players (a.k.a. those evil veterans).

3. different types of armors, each having their own skill.

4. materials required and skills and tools needed to obtain those materials (for LW, a small cow herd will last forever without excessive butchering skill or fantastic/enchanted knife).

 

Suggestion being "you spent years grinding that skill to be able to re-imp your set are now wasted, go and grind mining/metallurgy or run around nekkid" shows how much thought was put in to this.

 

You don't understand that manufacturing costs don't matter, it's usefulness that matters. The fact that weapons are more expensive is due to the fact that it is impossible to "live" in Wurm without them.

 

If each player could kill any mob with his bare hands, I could buy a 90 ql weapon with 4 spells for a few fish.

If spells cast on armor would increase running speed and stamina regeneration, you would buy a 5-speed horse for 5c. (I mean, you wouldn't buy it, because nobody would want to breed such horses)

If a combat-trait on horse would add a lot of CR to player, then armor would be worthless, and no one would care how long 90 ql 9 parts are made.

 

In Wurm only those items are expensive without which players cannot function. Hence my ideas in OP to create an economic loop and add features without which more groups will not be able to live/work.

 

----

Does WoA when cast on boots increase player speed of movement? If not then it could be added.

 

38 minutes ago, Blacklotus said:

Darmok I understand what you're saying but let me ask you this since you glossed over my question before.

How exactly do you think making armor destructible is going to fix any of the issues you brought up.

How exactly do you think making one of the more time consuming and expensive items in the game is going to fix an issue of them making more money than other people? 

Most of the suggestions made here just lump on more issues than any of this solves.

 

The change for armor is supposed to be an experiment and it is clear that changing only one group of items will not solve the problem for entire game, in the end all items in game should be "destructible", only this is how the player-driven-economy can work.

 

The idea is to test how money circulates between all groups, and where this circulation stops, new features must be added that will push circulation of money further, because economy only works when money are in loop.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Darnok

[CreZ 284]

Just remove the idea of a player economy and it solves all those problems.

[Brattygirl 917]

8 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I understand, but I don't CARE, because I am capitalists and capitalists are not interested in what it cost to produce this good, they are interested in the usefulness of that good.

Communists, on the other hand...

Lol so I am a Communist because I see wurm as a whole and not just one aspect of it? I am heavily involved in the SFI market. I craft, buy and sell items in bulk. So I know what effort goes into making something and that effect it will have on pricing. I have also grinded a few skills to 90 (my highest being almost 99 in masonry), so I know just how long it takes to get to those high levels. What do you know? You have this vision of what you think wurm is and what you think it should be, and you are totally wrong. You have yet to experience this game that has kept us all playing it for such a long time. Please just play the game. Work hard and achieve something in it.

 

2 hours ago, Archaed said:

Congrats on getting everyone to take the bait

.......I guess Archaed was right and you are just a Troll and we are stupidly taking the bait.

[Darnok 197]

1 minute ago, brattygirl said:

Lol so I am a Communist because I see wurm as a whole and not just one aspect of it? I am heavily involved in the SFI market. I craft, buy and sell items in bulk. So I know what effort goes into making something and that effect it will have on pricing. I have also grinded a few skills to 90 (my highest being almost 99 in masonry), so I know just how long it takes to get to those high levels. What do you know? You have this vision of what you think wurm is and what you think it should be, and you are totally wrong. You have yet to experience this game that has kept us all playing it for such a long time. Please just play the game. Work hard and achieve something in it.

 

 

 

Catching a fish with a fishing rod is difficult, so that is why fish are worthless 😄

 

You see the part of the game you want to see, not the whole game.

[Archaed 2,280]

29 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Search for balance is not trolling.

 

I agree, search for balance is not trolling. 

 

However, this thread is nowhere near a search for balance, and I can only assume that your goal IS trolling.

 

Please, for the love of FO, play the ###### game and stop trying to suggest ideas! 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Archaed

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

24 minutes ago, Darnok said:

The fact that weapons are more expensive is due to the fact that it is impossible to "live" in Wurm without them.

you can kill every mob in the game via tower guards except for uniques which you just post on the forums and 200 alts show up to tickle it to death, so its already completely possible to live without weapons, so wrong assumption there

 

complete non understanding of effort vs reward and supply vs demand, c- has been lowered to a d

[Kellen 77]

1 hour ago, Darnok said:

 

I understand, but I don't CARE, because I am capitalists and capitalists are not interested in what it cost to produce this good, they are interested in the usefulness of that good.

 

 

Capitalists aren't interested in what it costs to produce a good? Mmmmmwhat?

 

You don't think companies try to buy products at the lowest price they can so they can have a larger mark up on the same product? As someone who spent many years working in retail I can tell you that the 'margin' is 99.9% of what they care about. That margin being the difference in how much they paid for the product and how much they sell that product for. That is literally all they care about.

 

Edit: I guess you're saying this from a customer's perspective. Either way, capitalists care about what it costs to produce a product as that directly effects the end price of the product.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Kellen

[Blacklotus 276]

2 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

The change for armor is supposed to be an experiment and it is clear that changing only one group of items will not solve the problem for entire game, in the end all items in game should be "destructible", only this is how the player-driven-economy can work.

 

The idea is to test how money circulates between all groups, and where this circulation stops, new features must be added that will push circulation of money further, because economy only works when money are in loop.

Since nobody else will say it, let me.
You're better off finding a game that appreciates your badly thought out suggestions to drive away their business. Wurm isn't about money moving through the economy. If i want something I make it, you don't like that don't play.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Blacklotus

[Tomatoes 276]

economy develops naturally around communities darnok, all one has to do is provide a currency and set a base value for that currency. in Wurm that base currency is irons, and one action is worth ~11 irons in game. (someone else quoted me these figures years ago, Dont think SFI changed, not sure if NFI is similar). its all up to the players involved to use it in the most effective way they can.

 

[Kellen 77]

24 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

economy develops naturally around communities darnok, all one has to do is provide a currency and set a base value for that currency. in Wurm that base currency is irons, and one action is worth ~11 irons in game. (someone else quoted me these figures years ago, Dont think SFI changed, not sure if NFI is similar). its all up to the players involved to use it in the most effective way they can.

 

 

NFI is a little wonky still due to supply and demand. I've seen general labor paying 1s/k actions (10 iron per action) but dirt is selling for 2s/k which is still 1k actions

[Darnok 197]

19 hours ago, Finnn said:

That alone is enough to ignore this thread and you instantly.

This is not that kind of game with classes and roles, the game lets you grind any skill and be any of them at the same time.

*exception is the priest / follower separation and their limitations

 

It does not matter if the name is a profession, class, or a set of skills, the principle is one.
The player should have a choice, and the game should give him a fairly level playing field, no matter what skill set he chose for himself.

Unless the idea of Wurm is to be based on forcing players to play according to the only style of play, but then I do not bode too much popularity for such a solution.

 

Updated OP - economical loop

follower (favor) -> priest (enchanted items) -> follower

[Locath 523]

On 9/13/2021 at 3:57 AM, Darnok said:

Favor regeneration and other sources from which priests receive it could be slightly reduced.

Instead, followers could receive a spell, perhaps other than a vessel, that would take favor from living things like plants and animals and store it in gems.

 

The spell would drain favor from:

- bushes, destroying them at the same time, if bush has sprouts and it is in season, favor gain will be greater,

- trees, turning them into shriveled, just like bushes for sprouts and fruit players get more favor,

- animals, spell must be used before fight, during fight follower draining favor does not receive skill gain and after killing animal, it does not have any loot,

- other players in PvP,

- dragons (last hit gets favor),

 

So, you clearly don't play a priest.

 

You want to REDUCE existing favor gains which can be obtained from regen, sacrificing things and linked from other priests and instead you want to make the priest wander around the world, looking for a bush with sprouts?

Last hit on a dragon gives favor? As in, last person who lands a hit, who, by default, isn't a priest, with very few exceptions, gets favor which they can't use? And even if it's one of the two dragon fighting priests out there, they get favor AFTER the fight is over?

 

 

[Kellen 77]

22 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

It does not matter if the name is a profession, class, or a set of skills, the principle is one.
The player should have a choice, and the game should give him a fairly level playing field, no matter what skill set he chose for himself.

 

So Puppeteering should generate a similar income to the likes of Weaponsmithing and Armorsmithing?