Keenan

Depth vs Ease of use

Depth vs Ease of use  

126 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you prefer depth or ease of use when it comes to Wurm features?

    • Depth
      82
    • Ease of use
      44


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I also just want to say less rng.

 

RNG is not depth, it's a shallow attempt at replay value. 

 

The thing I like about depth in this game is that if you want to put a thousand hours into something, you'll get a thousand hours of results. 

 

RNG means you can put in a thousand hours of work and get nothing, or one hour and get those results. 

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Agreed about excessive entropy, although I must admit I rather enjoyed being able to scrounge up high ql fruits as a newb back when harvest ql was more random. Largely because it let me start sorting and hording right away, but even selling that random 99ql olive you managed to get could feel like an achievement (although with token selling and free money in the grass its a lot less meaningful).

In cases like harvests the removal of entropy actually acts as somewhat of a gating factor leading to more  haves and havenots. Personally I'd have rathered see it where at low skill you'd still get some randomly high stuff when you got lucky but as you skilled up your ql would come to deviate less from your skill. My point though is RNG isnt all bad either, as long as its not out of control and has logic or at least wurm logic behind its existence (like fruit on a wild tree).

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In my opinion Depth should be in the results, not in the requirements.

Archaeology is a good example of "depth in the results" where what you do is a couple of very simple actions, but there's a lot of possible outcomes and rules that determine those results. You start off rather easily, and you learn the skill and what to do with the increasing number of pieces as you go, the only annoying parts is figuring out where to investigate and how to not waste your time.

Fishing is a good example of "depth in the requirements" where you can't even get started properly unless you have a good understanding on how it works, and it requires a lot of possible different tools, the worst part about it though, is how something very straightforward (like fishing a catfish) that a lot of people were able to do just by rightclicking water with a fishing rod, was hidden behind a wall of understanding and requirements, denying people from even using their skill like they did before, it also requires a lot of constant mantainance and consumables, and that becomes very annoying very fast.

Edited by Davih
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About RNG, i honestly think that RNG is important.

Although it can be very frustrating at times, i think that giving a chance to get something good even to a noob player is what makes them stick around and try.

Imagine if Channeling (which is perhaps the most RNG thing in the game) couldn't occasionally give you a very high result once in a while even if your skill is low.
That would mean that by the time someone reaches 99 channeling everyone else would be cut out of the channeling game, and we all know how hard that skill is to raise.

I'm all for people randomly obtaining good results, as long as the rng isn't just silly. That's what made me try ropemaking even when i had 30skill and made me stick with it.

All the skills that are based on improving are already strictly bound to very high skill for endgame results, and that's a lot of different skills, you can't have an high QL tool or weapon until your skill is at least 90ish or you buy it from someone else.

We need at least some RNG-based skills to give noobs a chance.

That's also why i think nerfing gathering imbues wasn't appropriate. I would have personally tried to make 100ql output way less consistent for those with lower mining/WC obtaining that at lower skill by using expensive imbues to get to 100ql.
instead of denying the high QL entirely until you reach 99+ skill. I just think that everyone deserves a shot to occasionally get something good, it helps motivation, and i mean, it can't be worse than rares, where a person that literally just started playing could potentially make his first pickaxe ever and get it supreme.

Make high skills matter for WAY higher consitency without cutting those with low skills out of the game, or at least give them a way (imbues?) and a few skills where they can get good result once in a while just by luck, that's my idea.
Otherwise why would a new player interested in trading/marketing even bother trying in a game full of people that already reached the endgame?



I know that RNG can and will be frustrating at times, i got mad at RNG more times that i can count, but playing on PVE servers, besides fighting mobs, RNG really is your only enemy, if you take that away, you have really nobody left to fight against.

Edited by Davih
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15 hours ago, Archaed said:

I also just want to say less rng.

 

RNG is not depth, it's a shallow attempt at replay value. 

 

The thing I like about depth in this game is that if you want to put a thousand hours into something, you'll get a thousand hours of results. 

 

RNG means you can put in a thousand hours of work and get nothing, or one hour and get those results. 

 

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12 hours ago, Davih said:

About RNG, i honestly think that RNG is important.

Although it can be very frustrating at times, i think that giving a chance to get something good even to a noob player is what makes them stick around and try.

Imagine if Channeling (which is perhaps the most RNG thing in the game) couldn't occasionally give you a very high result once in a while even if your skill is low.
That would mean that by the time someone reaches 99 channeling everyone else would be cut out of the channeling game, and we all know how hard that skill is to raise.

I'm all for people randomly obtaining good results, as long as the rng isn't just silly. That's what made me try ropemaking even when i had 30skill and made me stick with it.

All the skills that are based on improving are already strictly bound to very high skill for endgame results, and that's a lot of different skills, you can't have an high QL tool or weapon until your skill is at least 90ish or you buy it from someone else.

We need at least some RNG-based skills to give noobs a chance.

That's also why i think nerfing gathering imbues wasn't appropriate. I would have personally tried to make 100ql output way less consistent for those with lower mining/WC obtaining that at lower skill by using expensive imbues to get to 100ql.
instead of denying the high QL entirely until you reach 99+ skill. I just think that everyone deserves a shot to occasionally get something good, it helps motivation, and i mean, it can't be worse than rares, where a person that literally just started playing could potentially make his first pickaxe ever and get it supreme.

Make high skills matter for WAY higher consitency without cutting those with low skills out of the game, or at least give them a way (imbues?) and a few skills where they can get good result once in a while just by luck, that's my idea.
Otherwise why would a new player interested in trading/marketing even bother trying in a game full of people that already reached the endgame?



I know that RNG can and will be frustrating at times, i got mad at RNG more times that i can count, but playing on PVE servers, besides fighting mobs, RNG really is your only enemy, if you take that away, you have really nobody left to fight against.

That is completely untrue

 

Imagine you want to work towards a skill, or work towards building a castle, or digging high slopes

 

You can put the time and effort into the game, and get those results. That's not the RNG I;m talking about, I'm not saying 100% skillgain and 100% creation, don't strawman this. 

 

I'm saying if you want a good horse, you should be able to put in the work to breed good horses, not have a random crapshoot of traits ion the hopes you get one. 

 

Or attending rifts with rng rewards in the hopes you get the one you want. 

 

RNG is not your friend, and it's not a good game mechanic When it's the only mechanic at play

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1 hour ago, Archaed said:

When it's the only mechanic at play

this is key really. if it seems like the only mechanic is RNG, then people get upset. i can see how some skills can seem that way, and there are others that have new mechanics that are completely unknown(Looking at you AH update) that might as well be RNG for all we know. This is what depth is supposed to overcome in a way: by giving you a reason to try it one way, while making it semi-interesting at the same time. i get that not everyone can use their imagination all the time, but this is the best use of it really. both Archaeology and Fishing have their 'things' and its looking like AH may very well be the same way. 

however my big thing about all this is: i dont need my hand held all the time, but i do sometimes. there are some skills i get naturally(archeology) and others I despise with a passion due to the boring and 'repetitive' nature(here is looking at you Imping). i dont play 'afk', or for 'mindless' things. i come for content and depth. and that content includes what we all make too ❤️

 

Edited by Tomatoes
grammar police
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I have no idea how the new AH update is or works, i can't really recall any mechanic that is purely rng, rift rewards are point based now right?

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23 minutes ago, Davih said:

I have no idea how the new AH update is or works, i can't really recall any mechanic that is purely rng, rift rewards are point based now right?

when you go to cash in your points it is a 'random' moon metal you get. cant pick a specific type. As far as we can tell that part is pure RNG. /shrug

 

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I see marks being more a gambling system than anything. Especially when you can spam buy past skins and hope for a decent jackal one. 

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40 minutes ago, Holar said:

I see marks being more a gambling system than anything. Especially when you can spam buy past skins and hope for a decent jackal one. 

To be honest, i love the idea of a premium currency system, would rather know what the heck im getting however

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Ease of use comes first. You build depth on top of easy to use features. If you do it in the reverse, you end up with a complex system that only a select few understand, ending up "niche" in style.

 

In the case of Wurm, many features are built with significant depth, but are difficult to use. Combat is a great example of this, where there are so many micromechanics and calculations that determine the result of a battle. Instead, what we end up with is people standing in front of a creature because actually managing those micromechanics is too tedious or unrewarding to make it worthwhile.

 

Present a clean foundation, then build on it. Don't build on a haphazard foundation. You wouldn't build a deed without terraforming first. The same should happen for features in the game. Terraform, then build.

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If anything gameplay is supposed to be a vessel for storytelling.  Highlight rockshards to combine them a certain way: no storytelling

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29 minutes ago, Johnston3 said:

If anything gameplay is supposed to be a vessel for storytelling.  Highlight rockshards to combine them a certain way: no storytelling

Yeah but wurm is unique in the sense we're the storytellers. Like every small thing we do in Wurm can turn into a story.

 

Got lost into the woods and died to a troll? Random guy offers to help, then also died to a different troll in the same forest. Then you spend time together dodging hellhounds to recover both corpses. That's a good story there. 

 

A struggling newbie accidentally lost his sword? Well a vet can always give him one for free and he'll remember that kind gesture. Most vets have stockpiles of weapons now anyway. 

 

But yeah, I agree ease of use needs to be the main focus. No offence, but recent "in depth" updates added more complications than quality to the game. Look at how amazing the crafting window was at the time when it was introduced. No more  500 0000 bazillion right clicks to create bricks, planks, nails,  continue walls, etc. I can't ever imagine wurm without the crafting window now. 

There's a lot of examples, but MOST of the quality of life & content updates that I loved for wurm these past few years actually were ease of use oriented. 

 

Examples 1. The previously mentioned crafting window.

2. The character window and options to equip /unequip stuff + easier to heal your wounds. 

3. Maps!!!

4. Bridges (the ease of use / practicality here is that we no longer have to terraform massive landbridges that can sometimes cost as much as 1 million dirt pieces to build)  

 

I'm pretty sure there's more examples to be found but my brain is too fried from work at the moment to remember. 

 

Stuff like the cooking update / fishing update are still problematic updates imho. One one hand sure, they added a complex system vs the previous simpler ones BUT we as players will always have an optimizing behavior, in the sense we'll always try to find the fastest route out of the woods. Even now, everyone still sticks to cooking meals & pizzas 99% of the time. The rest of the recipes aren't viable in the sense that they don't offer something better or different than meals. Likewise the fishing update only made fishing more difficult in my opinion since I dislike the idea of carying a lot of gear and creating items just to catch some stupid fish. Contrast that by just riding on my horse, going outside my deed, killing a wolf, butchering its meat and cooking a meal out of it. Quite literally 20 times easier and faster than how fishing works. 

 

I just hope I'm making my intent clear here, but as long as in depth systems don't have a certain type of reward / alternative advantage, people will always try to find the simplest and most efficient way to do stuff. I'm still killing wolves for meat. I don't enjoy fishing nor do I cook 50 different types of food. Not sure how many players have the same gaming behavior as me. 

 

Maybe I just got old and lazier :)) that's also a possibility. 

Edited by elentari

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15 hours ago, Tomatoes said:

when you go to cash in your points it is a 'random' moon metal you get. cant pick a specific type. As far as we can tell that part is pure RNG. /shrug

 

Well, to be fair that's not something related to a skill, it's just a "lottery reward" from being premium, 
I don't have a strong opinion on it, but even if i had, i wouldn't say it's particularly related.
 

 

37 minutes ago, Johnston3 said:

If anything gameplay is supposed to be a vessel for storytelling.  Highlight rockshards to combine them a certain way: no storytelling

Well, this is wurm online, we shouldn't expect those kind of things from this kind of game. I would be scared to see any "storytelling-stuff" that interferes with the actual gameplay/economy

Or... the first part of what Elentari said, that.

Edited by Davih

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I like challenge and it's what makes Wurm fun. But what is not fun is trying to figure out how things work. I'm confident there are many players who want to feel like they are being efficient. 

 

Fishing, In my experience, the number one problem with this is failing to communicate to the player important things. This could be why things are going wrong, "jump the hook".  It also lacks of hints about what will lead to good skill gain. Another issue with depth is when Wurm makes things convoluted as a short cut to depth. For fishing this is the difficulty in storing and stockpiling baits and floats. Allowing baits/floats in bulk containers should have been common sense. Further, making the random spawning mechanics limit certain bait/float collection is more convolution. Moss float and wheat bait are good example of how it should be. Worms, twigs, birch bark are examples of the bad.

Archaeology, I've never done it.

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As I see it:

 

Ease of Use GETS people playing

Depth INVOLVES people playing

Reward KEEPS people playing

 

I think all activities in game need an entry level which is easy to grasp, and can provide the essential basic function whist being played semi afk.  It should then have additional functionality, and rewards which can be unlocked through concentrated effort.  The progress we make throughout the levels and skill should be clearly signposted, frequent and obvious, so that we have anticipation of success, reward for achievement, and proof of endeavour. 

 

I think this is where the fishing might have tried really hard to fulfil, but fallen short.  The net is perhaps the basic fishing style for new players but I feel it does not 'lead into' the more advanced fishing styles intuitively.  The net perhaps has the ability to be played semi-afk, but this stops with the other fishing styles which need our concentrated attention.   Fishing in Wurm offers a lot of depth in the activity itself, but aside from pearl clam netting (an early skill stage) the end product (usually fish) can only be used in a limited number of ways, so the activity seems fairly fruitless and pointless. The various stages of progress in fishing (and the steps we need to take to unlock them) are perhaps not obvious enough to the beginner, and have no clear end goals, except the big fish in the journal, which not everyone uses.  As I understand it, the depth of fishing in real life is largely in the preparation - which reel to use, which bait etc, but the fishing process itself is generally regarded as chilled and relaxing, and often something else can be done whilst fishing, such as reading, listening to headphones, enjoying the view etc.  I think in Wurm, the preparation is rightly complex, but for anything other than net fishing, the fishing process itself is too involved and not relaxing enough.

 

An ideal fishing system for me would be:

Pick up the rod and fish whilst watching a stream - Ease of Use

Try a different location, line, reel or bait, to catch a rare fish - Depth

Catch a clam with a pearl or a lucky fish with a silver coin in it's mouth - RNG

Catch different coloured rare fish and make shiny fish scale armour - Reward!

Each fishing level threshold increases chance to catch a bigger weight, colour or type of rare fish, with more weight of scales, and also allows me to harvest more shiny scales from the rare fish - Progression

 

Thank you Keenan and the Devs, not just for being interested in these aspects, but more importantly for reminding us that you are continually considering them.

 

 

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* edited because I'm dumb and can't read a wiki * 

In any case, would be nice if systems like fishing would be more clear in game or at least offered more rewards than just fish.

 

I recall reading quite a lot of "sunken treasure chests" threads on the suggestions forums for high level fishermen. 

58 minutes ago, Muse said:

Each fishing level threshold increases chance to catch a bigger weight, colour or type of rare fish, with more weight of scales, and also allows me to harvest more shiny scales from the rare fish - Progression

Basically this, just different rewards. 

 

Edited by elentari

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4 hours ago, Muse said:

An ideal fishing system for me would be:

Pick up the rod and fish whilst watching a stream - Ease of Use

Try a different location, line, reel or bait, to catch a rare fish - Depth

Catch a clam with a pearl or a lucky fish with a silver coin in it's mouth - RNG

Catch different coloured rare fish and make shiny fish scale armour - Reward!

Each fishing level threshold increases chance to catch a bigger weight, colour or type of rare fish, with more weight of scales, and also allows me to harvest more shiny scales from the rare fish - Progression

Steam n00b here. I like this sentiment. It involves everything being talked about (ease, depth, RNG) and adds rewards and "tiers" (as I took it to mean) for leveling up your skills. While there is a difference between, say, archeology and fishing from the player's screen in terms of what they are doing, they can each maintain the same sentiment of ease > depth > RNG > reward and then "threshold" tiers for putting in the work that @Muse mentioned.

 

Totally off-topic, but something that is a reverse ease/depth system (assuming you take ease to mean entry and depth to mean end-game): How about rewarding players for putting in the work in a skill with the ability to mass-produce items? Say at 70, 80 or even 90 skill, can I please make more than one [insert simple material used to make something] at a time! While I may be able to make 3 ribbons at level 20-29 mind logic, and 4 at 30-39, or 5 at 40-49, I just can't understand why at 80 Blacksmithing skill I can't make more than one for each action. This to me just makes life easier, particularly after I've done the "work". I imagine at level 100 Blacksmithing, and even 50 mind logic, it's gotta be infuriating to create just 5 ribbons, particularly if ribbons are useless by themselves and are required for something else. :)

Edited by Zarwaddim

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 Keenan, why is dispel not by choice and takes the first spell on the examine ? You should be able to choose what spell to dispel off an item. Any chance of getting that implemented? 

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12 hours ago, Deadcrow said:

 Keenan, why is dispel not by choice and takes the first spell on the examine ? You should be able to choose what spell to dispel off an item. Any chance of getting that implemented? 

Suggestions are that way >

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