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Depth vs Ease of use

Depth vs Ease of use  

264 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you prefer depth or ease of use when it comes to Wurm features?

    • Depth
      177
    • Ease of use
      87


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I feel that for me, Depth would be more important, we have the Wurmpedia and we have community help channels as well as experienced staff helpers for things that might be hard to understand. Either we can be like more mainstream MMORPGs where it's super easy to get started and learn everything, then you just have repeatable content. Or we can play on our Niche community already, make things slightly less straightforward, but have tons of different aspects to explore.

 

I am certainly not the most indepth person, but some games I can finish in a day or 2, while others I'm still playing years later and still haven't found everything out. Wurm isn't the only one that I still play and learn new stuff, but it's one that I enjoy, so I'll keep doing it.

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In short:

i play Wurm a bit over a Year, and i play it because it is depth.

One Click more or or less is absolutely not importend....

 

Important are the options, are you a builder? learn and do it. Are you a fighter? learn and do it... etc... 

You can be a "Master of nothing" with all skills around the same level or a Specialist, maybe a Adventurer that 

must be survive...  its on you!

 

On the long run this all is only possible with depth!

With depth the goal is to have a nice time in Wurm, without depth the goal is the endgame..... and the "cry for content" all the time.

 

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Depth, but able to purchase or trade the item / journal achievement from another player. eg. recipes and archelogy are great, i'm dreading the fishing achievement because I hate fishing. 

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I voted for "Depth", but for me personally it's more like a 65%/35% split between depth and ease of use. Obviously something that is a complete slog to to use is going to be an issue, no matter how deep and awesome that feature is, but at the same time I'm not too particularly put off by right-click menus or complex mechanics. In fact I enjoy complex mechanics! (Complex, not complicated).

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Important question:  is the tension between 'ease of use' or 'depth'?  Or is this really about 'simplicity' vs 'complexity'?

Current mechanics that I feel have 'depth' are ones that 'unlock' later skills, which encourages focus.  The obvious examples are Mining and Woodcutting (and to a lesser extent, Digging).  So many other skills depend on the output of these skills that players instinctively understand the need to increase them.  Particularly when the outputs have economic value.


Another skill that I feel is ideally constructed is Natural Substances.  Healing covers are enormously useful, so nearly everyone experiments with this skill early on - but one can choose to push deeper into the skill for things like Transmutation Liquid only to discover that things like Forestry and Beverages are now important feeder skills.  One can tap out early on once the essentials are covered, but one can also see a path to greater skill and decide whether or not they wish to pursue that skill or spend time elsewhere.

When I think of 'ease of use', I think of things like 'Puppeteering' or 'Yoyo' - no depth, no complexity, the path to improvement lies solely in repetition and players can decide whether or not to focus on that for their own personal reasons.

And it's been mentioned several times, but I want to bring Fishing into this - this skill is arguably deep/complex in that the higher stages require several feeder skills to maximize:  woodcutting, ropemaking, jewelry smithing, milking, dairy food making, etc etc etc.  But the outputs of the skill at high levels have no economic value beyond checking boxes in the journal.

All this to say, I believe that:

  • Depth/complexity skills are most interesting when the final outputs have economic value to other players.
  • Ease of use skills are not particularly interesting, except for when they provide universal needs (mortar, bricks, planks, nails, etc.)

 

On 9/13/2021 at 2:44 AM, Archaed said:

Hypothetically, if something like coffee were to be added into a game, I think having to harvest the cherries, pit them for green beans, then roast them to get coffee beans before you can drink it is a bit too deep, unless the reward is worth that work. 

 

Just relishing the prophetic bit of foreshadowing, especially when contrasted with ongoing balancing attempts.   No snark - just appreciation for the devs because this is a remarkably difficult balancing act!  Anyone that's ever watched the impossible balancing act of any MMO/MOBA ever knows what a minefield this is.

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When the new cooking was introduced some people said that it was good because they LIKE cooking in-game, and it added more "depth" to it. That would be fine if cooking had been a 100% voluntary activity, but it isn't. More and more of the game has been tied to eating, and it's absolutely not something you can opt out of. You cannot do anything if your food bar is too low, but if you spend your time farming and cooking in order to get that sweet sweet sustenance then suddenly there is no time left to do anything else.

I'd wager that 90% of the people who still claim the cooking system is great are the ones that make bank from selling pizza to the rest of the playerbase.


A lot of the time "depth" just translates to "time consuming", and that's garbage. There are so many things you can do ingame so you really don't need artificially induced "complexity" to keep you occupied. When a feature detracts from what you actually want to be doing it's typically not a matter of depth but one of time consumption. Do people fish because they like fishing mini games, or because they want fish? Do they cook because they like to cook, or because the game forces you to eat in order to be able to do other things?

 

The fishing and cooking are two of the features that immediately come to mind, though I realize the question is meant to open up discussions about how we view "depth vs. ease of use" as a whole. The problem is that several different philosophies have been used for different features in the game (which isn't surprising since they've been introduced at different times, designed by different people), so it's impossible to just give a general answer. For example: Archaeology contains lots of steps and several tools, as well as knowledge about the general mechanics. But you engage in archaeology because you think it's a fun feature, and maybe you log in JUST to do archaeology - And if you don't work on that skill it doesn't prevent you from doing other things. The skill has depth, but it doesn't detract from your goal.

 

Another aspect where the "depth" has overtaken the "ease of use" is when it comes to management features, such as discarding items. Discarding was supposed to be a way of letting players help out with reducing the item count, so why is it:
1. Based on your action queue, and

2. An action you can't do while performing other actions?

No one actually enjoys discarding logs/shards, so there's no point to it having depth. I don't need to believe that it is something realistically doable, because the whole point of it is to remove items from the server. I'd like to do my part, and it would be a lot less annoying if I could do it to an entire pile in one go while continuing to mine or whatever.

 

"Complexity" and "Depth" (aka lots and lots of steps and time needed for completion) can be added to anything: But it shouldn't be. Not all actions/skills are the same, and shouldn't be treated as such. Building a house is a process where the goal is the house itself, therefore it makes sense that it's an involved activity. Eating a meal isn't supposed to be a process, it's supposed to be a means to an end - And if someone reading this is some kind of garbage disposal unit that sits around chugging meals in-game all day I respect you, but I am not about that.

 

I'm really glad to see that this aspect is being examined more closely, so thank you for that. 🙂

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To me, it's definitely depth. There are many games out there with ease of use, so when I come to Wurm, I really value the complexity and the depth. That's what attracted me to Wurm in the first place and that's what keeps me here.

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Played a lot over the years.  I like depth but I must say, I still haven't found the time to go fishing since the change and it used to be something I did regularly--now nothing. Cooking is a bit different, since the new depth didn't stop the old methods from working. I still cook pretty much as I always did but if I need something special, I order delivery.  Doesn't mean I'm opposed to depth in any way, just that for myself, there seems to be so many other things I always want to do that now I never fish at all...

One day I'm sure I'll find the time to explore the new systems, someday.

 

In that sense I think the cooking model is better than the fishing model.  I still cook. I do not fish.

 

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When I see new players asking questions, I try to be helpful, gawd knows how frustrating it can be to start out, we've all been there.

 

That being said, Ease of Use, if you mean is the game intutive, no, not really, how many new players know how to get a kindling ( make one even ) get some fuel ( peat, log, whatever ) then Activate your flint, light a forge, then burn the fuel.

Not many.

 

I tell new players, Wiki will be your best friend forever while playing wurm, and it is, even for older players like myself we refer to it constantly, some even have it memorized.

The in game wiki access, the new tutorials of new players ( if they use it ) the new starting equipment. The UI overhaul all are good steps in the right direction of Ease of Use.  Just remember, don't go full blast into a Gimme type game.

 

That being said, Wurm is not, and never should be a Gimme Game, where you complete building a 10 story house, 2 collusus, a 100x100 deed in less than a day.  If it ever became a Gimme Game, I for one would be done with it.

Wurm is about working to get your rewards, long term projects, short term projects and seeing the completion of these things as the reward ( even the months / years folks put into getting 100 in a skill )

 

Depth on the other hand, is another issue.  There is Depth and there is Mindless Time Consuming actions.  Pizzas are a good example of this.  Depth ( time ) vs Reward ( long affinity buff timers )  That should always be considered.  Is the reward of say a week of gathering materials, worth the day long task of building something.  Ships is another thing that comes to mind with the Depth vs Time = Reward.  There are some that are just annoying like the millions of tiles of Marsh we don't need. I feel that what it comes down to is personal playstyles. If a person wants to put in the time to get the rewards then they will get those rewards.

 

 

 

 

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wish this conversation was taken much more seriously 10-12 years ago.  seems like a lot of changes to the game after 2010 were focused on ease of use. from my perspective it made the game far less enjoyable. depth is was this game's comparative advantage, and it was chipped away in hopes of acquiring the 'larger audience', and had plenty of player advocates.

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opinions vary, and sometimes intersect or agree..

simple truths:

1. ease of use is quite arbitrary, while also critical to a game's lifespan..

too easy, and players abandon for lack of challenge; not easy enough, and players abandon for lack of fun..

2. always keep in mind that your needs aren't the only needs.. and needs will never matter as much to anyone else...

3. gotta have a certain number of paying patrons to keep the lights on.. and more to bankroll new stuff to keep relevant.. that's just reality for any business - games are as much of a business as any other venture..

 

i think the devs are doing great in a world that's becoming increasingly selfish and cookie-cutter..

mainly because they have the intestinal fortitude to run their world according to their vision, and allow us to be guest participants..

 

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I must like it the way it is.

Edited by Dunder

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I will give my newish player opinion on this. Keeping in mind that the allure of the game is based on the depth of the crafting/interacting with the world aspect of Wurm (or at least that's what caught my attention about the game) I would say is great to have systems that have a steep learning curve. But more is not always better, the new player has no other option other than to focus on grinding a skill and learning a page of the wiki before planning any concrete goals. For the average Wurm player, this is an accepted, even embraced concept, but for the new player there is no way to get that instant bit of satisfaction, only after a few days, maybe weeks of your starting play-through you can start to see some meaningful experiences, see how I used the word "experiences" not "results." A new player cannot and should not create an endgame-grade tool, examining archeology, the leveling of the skill matters very little because it is just a genuinely fun thing to do. Making the player feel like their time invested will lead to at least some short term gratification could go a long way in making them stay invested. TL; DR systems that are interesting and fun to understand, rewarding even at short term time investment, and have difficulty to master.

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The argument for 'depth' is completely misleading when all it means is adding more useless mechanics to fiddle with, rather than engaging in actual game play.

As JSH aptly put it in his 'worst MMO ever' review, what's the point of having to switch tools, when there are no consequences to not doing so, like badly ruining a saw when using it on a metal object.

Also the unnecessary fiddling with liquid amount by having to use several of them other putting other stuff into them to get to the correct amount isn't 'depth' but just a pain, esp. when the game already has a measuring jug but you deliberately can't set it to the amount needed.

These are all 'bollocks' mechanics and Wurm has a boat load of them, that all need to go.

 

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+1 for development focused on utility and experience.

vanilla wurm somewhat had a law of simple mechanic and salt to spice things for gain or results, new mechanics do not always follow that

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I'm writing from a perspective of a newbie with few days of experience.So if you need some deep insight of a mid-late game systems, I'm not the one who can provide that. I've played games like Haven and Hearth, Salem and lots of others previously. I love HaH but I hate constant wipes and forced pvp, so PvE servers of Wurm is a perfect place for me, I believe I'll stay (already paid for my 2 months prem).And yeah, english is not my 1st language, so prepare for grammar mistakes.
I don't think they are at odds. Maybe sometimes, but most of the time they are not. "Easy to learn, hard to master" is the best concept. I also believe... sometimes more complex things for a newbie work better in engaging us to play the game.
It should be easy to get some basic stuff, but hard to advance. Often Wurm does a great job in it, but not always. I will illustrate with 2 examples of my recent activities: Metalcrafting (good) and House building (bad).

Metalcrafting:
It is extremely easy to craft basic tools. q1-10 butcher knife, file, small and large anvils, etc. Every thing opens a whole bunch of opportunities to me. I have to collect different things to be able to improve things. A bit hunting for pelts. Water source is far? I should craft a barrel to collect water for tempering. Forge can also be used for ashes (lye->leather), cooking, etc, which pushes me to explore these activities. Sometimes I don't succeed in crafting because of low skills and quality, but this doesn't matter much because I need only 1 tool or very few components (like ribbons). Even the hardest part: finding Iron vein (i've dug it myself, didn't use other people's mines) rewards accordingly, since there are tons of iron ore in it. I've found the process of digging into metalcrafting very gripping. Every little step I make shows me progress, ql numbers are rising and it feels good, it shows problems (like water is being far) and rewards me for solving it (barrel). Also it does a great job of integrating all other game aspects into it. Makes me wanna try to make armor, different weapons, improve ql of my pickaxe, try cooking, etc.
Rising quality and skills takes effort, but it is very easy to start. It feels great, opens opportunities and makes me wanna dig in the game more. And when I've explored enough, I'm already engaged with the game and its systems and its not a bad thing to throw some hardcore grind.

House building:
Crafting a house... 15% chance of creating a wooden beam and 25-30 sec for a single one with a full stamina. Lots of actions required to add them into walls, mind logic skill is low and I can barely do it semiafk because of that. I just have to click things over and over. This was frustrating. Fail-fail-fail-fail-success-fail-fail-fail-success-fail-fail-fail-fail-fail-fail. And this is not very engaging experience, a simple bot can do that, I am not really involved. I can't craft a big house because its max size depends on carpentry skill (I think) so this already gives me enough motivation to level up my skills. And everything is just to make a 1x2 shed for preventing my stuff from being stolen. Its a bit weird to put so much effort into this on a PvE server.
House building process is a lot simplier than metalcrafting, but it is not engaging at all. I just have to sit and click stuff, switch between 3 tools and deliver logs again and again.

Metalcrafting is complex and interesting. House building is simple (wall's ql do not matter much, afaik and less tools and skills are involved), but frustrating. BTW, I believe the best design would be allowing to craft small sheds with a lot less effort and time investment, but if you want to make an actual house, you have to level yourself up. You allows us, newbs, to make kindlings with 100% chance and give flint and steel as a starter item after all and it does not break the game, but greatly reduces the amount of boring grind.

Going back to the original question of depth vs ease, I honestly think its more about how you organise the actual aspects. As I've shared my experience, even for a noob, "ease" option is not always the best one. House building is easy in terms of content involved and complexity of this game system, so despite amount of time and effort, I believe it falls into "ease" category. Metalcrafting is heavily interconnected with other systems, has tons of subskills (blade smithing, really? :D), needs forges, 2 types of anvils, prospecting, preparing metals by heating, it depends on ql more, its is definitely more complex. But in the same time it actually gives a feeling of RPG progress when you are working around it, while house building turns into grind instantly.

And speaking of "educating players", Wurm can totally do a better job, honestly. "Depth" does not equals "confusing", lack of information is. Despite having few days of experience, I do not find crafting confusing, all these hundreds of components, plants, crafting trees, tons of skills etc. Mostly understandable, wiki tells enough info. Grow cotton, harvest cotton, spindle, loom, weave into jacket. Multistep process and every step involves a different tool but so what? It is not overwhelming. But what I do find confusing and frustrating is a lack of information. Butchering is a great example. The system is simple: Get butchering knife, butcher corpses, get stuff while rising butchering and butchering knife skills which allow you to get more and better stuff. This is literally it, simple... but... inhales
How important is butchering knife and skills? Does good ql butchering knife improve ql of meat or it softcaps/hardcaps it? If softcaps, in what way? What about the skills? Does butchering knife skill affect the ql (again, soft or hardcap?) or it speeds up the process? Or it is like a combat skill when fighting with a butchering knife or smth? Or both? If so, can I rise butchering knife skill by fighting hens with it to make butchering easier? Should I hunt harder prey to improve butchering or its about ql of a corpse and not its type? I mean, what if I have ql 40 hen spawn near me so I can grind butchering on them without putting myself against crocs? What if only skill affects the ql and the tool only affects the speed? Or vice versa. I see numbers going up, improving my pickaxe have made mining time lesser, but do I even profit from making a better butchering knife? Can't see corpse ql, what If I need a better knife only when I will go hunting crocs, trolls or some other stuff that I lack combat skills for? If butchering knife ql improves any ql of hides instead of capping it, I am profiting, but I don't know that.
Butching is very simple as a system, but it is still confusing for a new player.

Edited by Sei
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51 minutes ago, Sei said:

I'm writing from a perspective of a newbie with few days of experience.So if you need some deep insight of a mid-late game systems, I'm not the one who can provide that. I've played games like Haven and Hearth, Salem and lots of others previously. I love HaH but I hate constant wipes and forced pvp, so PvE servers of Wurm is a perfect place for me, I believe I'll stay (already paid for my 2 months prem).And yeah, english is not my 1st language, so prepare for grammar mistakes.
I don't think they are at odds. Maybe sometimes, but most of the time they are not. "Easy to learn, hard to master" is the best concept. I also believe... sometimes more complex things for a newbie work better in engaging us to play the game.
It should be easy to get some basic stuff, but hard to advance. Often Wurm does a great job in it, but not always. I will illustrate with 2 examples of my recent activities: Metalcrafting (good) and House building (bad).

Metalcrafting:
It is extremely easy to craft basic tools. q1-10 butcher knife, file, small and large anvils, etc. Every thing opens a whole bunch of opportunities to me. I have to collect different things to be able to improve things. A bit hunting for pelts. Water source is far? I should craft a barrel to collect water for tempering. Forge can also be used for ashes (lye->leather), cooking, etc, which pushes me to explore these activities. Sometimes I don't succeed in crafting because of low skills and quality, but this doesn't matter much because I need only 1 tool or very few components (like ribbons). Even the hardest part: finding Iron vein (i've dug it myself, didn't use other people's mines) rewards accordingly, since there are tons of iron ore in it. I've found the process of digging into metalcrafting very gripping. Every little step I make shows me progress, ql numbers are rising and it feels good, it shows problems (like water is being far) and rewards me for solving it (barrel). Also it does a great job of integrating all other game aspects into it. Makes me wanna try to make armor, different weapons, improve ql of my pickaxe, try cooking, etc.
Rising quality and skills takes effort, but it is very easy to start. It feels great, opens opportunities and makes me wanna dig in the game more. And when I've explored enough, I'm already engaged with the game and its systems and its not a bad thing to throw some hardcore grind.

House building:
Crafting a house... 15% chance of creating a wooden beam and 25-30 sec for a single one with a full stamina. Lots of actions required to add them into walls, mind logic skill is low and I can barely do it semiafk because of that. I just have to click things over and over. This was frustrating. Fail-fail-fail-fail-success-fail-fail-fail-success-fail-fail-fail-fail-fail-fail. And this is not very engaging experience, a simple bot can do that, I am not really involved. I can't craft a big house because its max size depends on carpentry skill (I think) so this already gives me enough motivation to level up my skills. And everything is just to make a 1x2 shed for preventing my stuff from being stolen. Its a bit weird to put so much effort into this on a PvE server.
House building process is a lot simplier than metalcrafting, but it is not engaging at all. I just have to sit and click stuff, switch between 3 tools and deliver logs again and again.

Metalcrafting is complex and interesting. House building is simple (wall's ql do not matter much, afaik and less tools and skills are involved), but frustrating. BTW, I believe the best design would be allowing to craft small sheds with a lot less effort and time investment, but if you want to make an actual house, you have to level yourself up. You allows us, newbs, to make kindlings with 100% chance and give flint and steel as a starter item after all and it does not break the game, but greatly reduces the amount of boring grind.

Going back to the original question of depth vs ease, I honestly think its more about how you organise the actual aspects. As I've shared my experience, even for a noob, "ease" option is not always the best one. House building is easy in terms of content involved and complexity of this game system, so despite amount of time and effort, I believe it falls into "ease" category. Metalcrafting is heavily interconnected with other systems, has tons of subskills (blade smithing, really? :D), needs forges, 2 types of anvils, prospecting, preparing metals by heating, it depends on ql more, its is definitely more complex. But in the same time it actually gives a feeling of RPG progress when you are working around it, while house building turns into grind instantly.

And speaking of "educating players", Wurm can totally do a better job, honestly. "Depth" does not equals "confusing", lack of information is. Despite having few days of experience, I do not find crafting confusing, all these hundreds of components, plants, crafting trees, tons of skills etc. Mostly understandable, wiki tells enough info. Grow cotton, harvest cotton, spindle, loom, weave into jacket. Multistep process and every step involves a different tool but so what? It is not overwhelming. But what I do find confusing and frustrating is a lack of information. Butchering is a great example. The system is simple: Get butchering knife, butcher corpses, get stuff while rising butchering and butchering knife skills which allow you to get more and better stuff. This is literally it, simple... but... inhales
How important is butchering knife and skills? Does good ql butchering knife improve ql of meat or it softcaps/hardcaps it? If softcaps, in what way? What about the skills? Does butchering knife skill affect the ql (again, soft or hardcap?) or it speeds up the process? Or it is like a combat skill when fighting with a butchering knife or smth? Or both? If so, can I rise butchering knife skill by fighting hens with it to make butchering easier? Should I hunt harder prey to improve butchering or its about ql of a corpse and not its type? I mean, what if I have ql 40 hen spawn near me so I can grind butchering on them without putting myself against crocs? What if only skill affects the ql and the tool only affects the speed? Or vice versa. I see numbers going up, improving my pickaxe have made mining time lesser, but do I even profit from making a better butchering knife? Can't see corpse ql, what If I need a better knife only when I will go hunting crocs, trolls or some other stuff that I lack combat skills for? If butchering knife ql improves any ql of hides instead of capping it, I am profiting, but I don't know that.
Butching is very simple as a system, but it is still confusing for a new player.

 

Not really on topic for the thread, but I just wanted to add a little note with some tips to answer some of your cons/questions.

 

(1) If your starter house is needing wooden beams, it means you're building a timber-framed house and not the standard wooden house for starters.

 

A 'wooden house' (made with wooden walls, wooden door, etc) just needs 20 planks and some nails for each wall/door, no timber beams at all.  ALOT easier to build than a timber-framed house.

 

(2) Water being far away means a good suggestion would be to try to build a fountain/well nearby, crafting and using a pendulum to find where a water source tile is near you to build a well or fountain on to access replenishable fresh water without having to walk to the shore.

 

Maybe these two bits of info might be helpful?  Good luck and glad to see you enjoing the game as a new player.  Welcome!

 

 

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I think the balance of archeology is great, on the other hand I loath the new fishing, way too much hassle. I loved Tich dearly, know this was her baby but I have barely touched it since the change. I think this one missed the mark  on balance. 

Edited by Chiqa
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I like most hope for a balance. When that is not always achieved I move on to something else. I do not care for the depth and general pain  of fishing after it was updated even tho I used to enjoy it a great deal. so I do not do it anymore. Yes it is now deep and challenging, for me it also misses most of the fun factor it used to have.  There are other Wurm activity's I just do not care for , that is ok, plenty of other things for me to do even after a decade + here

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I think, in the best possible world,  both.  As an example, let me use acheology and Treasure maps.  Both are fairly easy to get and use,  (though the Treasure maps can be frustrating ), I think both have pretty good ease of use.   Now to add depth, add a mechanism to archeology to get archeology treasure maps where the treasure map would have an archeology component to finding the buried clues and an archeology based reward.    The same could be done with fishing and treasure maps.  But much can also be done with regards to depth in any crafting at a level or at a trigger ability. You could add a skin ability to a wagon after crafting a wagon with certain items or skills you could make a slightly larger  or slightly faster wagon.  This could be done with animal breeding, mules for example, could require more skill. Animal husbandry could have animal Training added expanding to war horses and so on.  I think the game, although difficult to learn at some times, has excellent ease of use (that being once you learn it you can do it fairly well).  The ability and desirablility of adding Depth seems unlimited.  

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From the perspective of a mainly hermit player since... can't really remember but something like 2010 or so?. My first experiences were on JK, before ships were implemented. I return for several months once per year or sometimes a bit longer hiatus. Each time I am warped into a new era ^^ Whoa! Ships! Whoa! Bridges! Whoa! Cooking! Archeology! Whoa! Fishing... wait what?

 

I'm in favour of depth, absolutely, but I also think that one should start with 'noob level' requirements for basic tasks and then later on one can dig deeper into to these skills as desired.

 

With cooking, this is perfectly done. Some meat and some veggie in a frying pan and you can make a meal that will be good enough to sustain you. Not a huge task, it doesn't take much time. If I want to profit from well nourishing food and affinity timers I will have to put work into it.

 

Building, too. Even as a new player, there is a nice but not unsurmountable challenge in getting that first shack done. Later, one can move on to the buildings that requiring mats that are harder to get and which' size/heigth requires higher skills. You have to work for it.

 

Fishing is the prime example of a skill that has no basic noob level anymore. In the old days, you took a shaft, a piece of thread, a wooden hook and you were good to go. I took a short look at the new system, decided I didn't want to spend that time and never looked at it again. No more fish for me. Can't help but wonder how many new players end up fishing. The amount of work one has to put into it, right from the start, is too high.

 

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Stability (he writes after the 2nd client crash in an hour), followed by ease of use, but with some depth, as mentioned as the gold standard.

 

The newer Paradox Interactive games, while a completely different type of game, showcase this, in my mind. Particularly Crusader Kings III.

Edited by Fearil

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