Suggestions Moderator

[Tomatoes 276]

There are nearly 900 pages of suggestions, and NO indication as to what is/has/wont be put in game. And to be fair, the Developers have a RL and don't always have time to browse the forums for ideas.

Wurm needs to grow as a game, but in order to do so it need a specific Staff member who is paid(cause suggestions is and will always be a full time job) to go through the suggestion forums and bug forums, filter out the ideas that don't fit in Wurm, and concisely sum up and present the rest in a fashion that makes it easy for the current Development team to implement the ideas.

This really shouldn't be a part of the 'community relations' job either: Some suggestions are very near and dear to some Wurmians, and having to filter out the suggestions and keep it inline with Wurms 'road map' will cause a lot of of backlash.

 

community relations is supposed to be about keeping the community working as a whole, and to be staff's mouthpiece when necessary. Backlash here just makes things harder to deal with.

Suggestions moderator would be the the communities mouthpiece to Developers, but they have to let the community be individuals to let it happen. backlash here is necessary. 'conflict breeds invention'

Wurm's product manager and community manager would also work closely with this individual, both to keep them informed of bugs, but of other possible suggestions that may be noteworthy.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Tomatoes

[Evilreaper 262]

+1 

but only if the suggestions moderator pushes the slate forges !!!!

[Jaz 2,665]

Such a role needs some insight to actual Wurm code and coding and also emphasis to the Wurm "feeling" and user moods.

Tough job surely also a confrontational one at times.

Yes needs to be paid and carefully vetted, but seems definitely needed as current suggestions forum is at the such a runaway state now which makes it impossible to fulfill its role. Actually I mostly ignore it completely sadly.

[Tomatoes 276]

Whom ever it is has to be of the same opinion as ccab/gcg and the developers when it comes to Wurm as a whole, agreeing not only with the current roadmap, or 'vision' of wurm, but also of its current state. 

 

[Arkonick 557]

they need more developers on pay roll to push the game not more usless people that don't actually push the development.

[Tomatoes 276]

1 hour ago, Arkonick said:

they need more developers on pay roll to push the game not more usless people that don't actually push the development.

developers code, not 'advertise', the game. us regular players can 'advertise' just fine if you want...oh, wait, we do that already.

 

[LionIX 354]

10 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

developers code, not 'advertise', the game. us regular players can 'advertise' just fine if you want...oh, wait, we do that already.

 

Pretty sure Ark meant to develop the game. Yes, the focus should be on developers and 1-2 community people to keep us informed. There's no reason to organize a suggestions subforum when there's not enough staff to implement anything.

[Finnn 3,303]

I agree, it's only misleading darnok that any of that have chance to be implemented, and wastes other's time for suggestions..

 

Question remains.. what is the proper channel to give feedback for qol and such.. for UI or features.. that are dated.. and badly could use some update to prevent carpal, etc..

[Tomatoes 276]

7 minutes ago, Finnn said:

I agree, it's only misleading darnok that any of that have chance to be implemented, and wastes other's time for suggestions..

 

Question remains.. what is the proper channel to give feedback for qol and such.. for UI or features.. that are dated.. and badly could use some update to prevent carpal, etc..

well suggestions has always been the 'go to' for all that as well(at least CA has always pointed others here). 
 

24 minutes ago, LionIX said:

Pretty sure Ark meant to develop the game. Yes, the focus should be on developers and 1-2 community people to keep us informed. There's no reason to organize a suggestions subforum when there's not enough staff to implement anything.

There are plenty of staff. https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/4976-wurm-online-staff/. you do not need a team of 100 devs to make a game. twelve people is MORE then plenty to develop it. Having someone who can go through the forums so that they can focus on coding would be a HUGE boon to them in the long run. Humans help Humans survive. that's what community is about.

 

[Archaed 2,280]

Easy job

 

Tag everything as "cool idea, but isn't the focus right now" 

 

Job done. 

 

On 9/12/2021 at 11:38 AM, Tomatoes said:

 

There are plenty of staff. https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/4976-wurm-online-staff/. you do not need a team of 100 devs to make a game. twelve people is MORE then plenty to develop it. Having someone who can go through the forums so that they can focus on coding would be a HUGE boon to them in the long run. Humans help Humans survive. that's what community is about.

 

The idea that 12 staff can produce content for an MMORPG on any scale that matches the expectations of players is very incorrect. 

 

There's a reason why a lot of MMORPG's shut down, because they need to make back the millions of dollars invested, and cover salaries of the massive teams that development requires. 

 

Any time someone complains about slow development within wurm, needs to read the credits of mmorpgs:

 

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/eso-credits

 

https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/world-of-warcraft/credits

 

https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/final-fantasy-xiv-online-a-realm-reborn/credits

Edited September 13, 2021 by Archaed

[Tomatoes 276]

13 hours ago, Archaed said:

Tag everything as "cool idea, but isn't the focus right now"

we don't know this: in fact we as regular players know nothing. there could be hundreds of good ideas in the forums, along with things that very OBVIOUSLY don't fit

 

13 hours ago, Archaed said:

The idea that 12 staff can produce content for an MMORPG on any scale that matches the expectations of players is very incorrect. 

 

There's a reason why a lot of MMORPG's shut down, because they need to make back the millions of dollars invested, and cover salaries of the massive teams that development requires. 

 

Any time someone complains about slow development within wurm, needs to read the credits of mmorpgs:

 

its really funny....of them three examples, only one has been around just as long as Wurm. approximately. and yet Wurm is still going. We all know wurm development is slow, and we are mostly cool with that(if you're not you really are playing the wrong game). 

Wurm still exists, even after almost 18 years. Lets give it tools to keep existing.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Tomatoes

[Blacklotus 276]

13 hours ago, Tomatoes said:

its really funny....of them three examples, only one has been around just as long as Wurm. approximately. and yet Wurm is still going. We all know wurm development is slow, and we are mostly cool with that(if you're not you really are playing the wrong game). 

Wurm still exists, even after almost 18 years. Lets give it tools to keep existing.

I will point out that wurm had one Dev for a long time, plenty of unpaid help, and has changed hands now at least once. Oh and Notch, can't forget that he was a dev here too so maybe theres a reason it's lasted 18 years.

I don't think having a moderator specifically for suggestions would benefit anyone, it just doesn't help we have a few very suggestive members of our community that don't understand how the game works and will suggest anything that crosses their mind be it useful or not.

[CreZ 284]

On 9/11/2021 at 4:38 PM, Tomatoes said:

Humans help Humans survive. that's what community is about.

 

What about the rest of us though?

[Blazecraze 440]

Community is about how to drive profit through acts of kindness. 

[Tomatoes 276]

55 minutes ago, CreZ said:

 

What about the rest of us though?

if you have human dna, your human, even if you feel otherwise(sucks but true). If you are talking your Wurmian 'alts' well thats a differnt thread entirely.

 

55 minutes ago, Blazecraze said:

Community is about how to drive profit through acts of kindness. 

How very self-serving and, in some ways, blind of you.....
without 'community' we would never have gotten humanity to the point where its about to take of into space(damn you besos)
without 'community' we would never have gotten things like computers, or internet
without 'community' there is no need for phones, or to even communicate at all for that matter.

and humans really like to communicate don't we. we cant stop that, nor should we. Having someone who knows what the developers are looking for in the way of content could be a great way to help out our community.

[Archaed 2,280]

So what is the job of the moderator? Given they won't be able to:

a) confirm what can go in

b) dictate development plans

c) influence development decisions based on suggestions

 

Are you just wanting someone to add a "read" flag to the posts? 

 

I believe you think the reason they're not going in the game is because they're not being read, but that's not the case. They're not going in because they don't fit what the developers want or what they are working on. 

 

A "moderator" isn't going to get content into the game. 

[Locath 533]

2 hours ago, Archaed said:

So what is the job of the moderator? Given they won't be able to:

a) confirm what can go in

b) dictate development plans

c) influence development decisions based on suggestions

 

As silly and impossible as this will sound... Perhaps?

"moderator" might not be the best name for the role but a lead who knows the product, system and developer's capabilities and can communicate back to us (is allowed to in first place but also knows what is happening behind the curtain) is not something extremely unreasonable in my opinion.

 

Of all people, you know best that trying to communicate ANYTHING back to the audience without having as much as "we are working on something" to share is not really a role which would be appreciated by pretty much anyone.

Consider being able to give out snippets of "we recognize the issues with this and that system and rebalancing or fixing changes are now available on test server" every few weeks. That alone would likely cut down on the bashing and cynicism of the players.

Add having the cojones to tell us "we tried to add XYZ which many of you asked for but we found it would be too problematic so we scrapped that idea" and you have a happy and informed player base, despite telling them something they want will not get done.

 

Especially point c), i would hope that's exactly what the suggestions section of the forums is here for.

 

Over the years, "communication" became a buzz-word in Wurm and it's never used in positive context and the saddest part is that it's not a new phenomena, we are asking for it for years and very little is being done about it. Retro/Demona might be the best relationship experts but if they are not allowed to share or, worse, aren't told... they will never be able to do her job effectively and you know exactly how much grief and hate and depressing comments this causes.

 

At least you are in the better position, even if not vocal about it, that people now realize what many of us suspected for a long time. It wasn't Retro that was bad at his job and was replaced. It was Retro not having the tools and information to do the one thing he was hired to do. With Demona being in the same boat, i feel sorry for her, just as i was for you.  

 

Back on topic: A working channel between players and devs is something people are regularly asking for.

Or close the suggestions section entirely until such time that Devs have the capacity to take on new ideas AND talk to us about them. For all we know they might have 20 different, amazing, new things they are working on which will be released when they are ready but not having any details and reading "we are working on something big" for the last few years simply drives us away. 

 

Hell, ask one of the devs, once a month, each month a different person to spend an hour in the suggestions section and comment on those that are feasible and -might- get looked at deeper.

One hour, once a month, one dev at a time.

 

Or with similar frequency, devs could simply make a quick post telling us what said dev is working on currently.

Not a roadmap, i think we all gave up on that. Just sit down and type up something along the lines "i'm working on adding tea to the game, graphics are done, client side is done, logic is being worked on by me and SoandSo. Few bug fixes, rebalancing the frog/toad sounds because they are overpowered and give the frogs an unfair advantage over players". 

Each month a different developer.

Please.

 

[Tomatoes 276]

^^^

3 hours ago, Locath said:

 

As silly and impossible as this will sound... Perhaps?

"moderator" might not be the best name for the role but a lead who knows the product, system and developer's capabilities and can communicate back to us (is allowed to in first place but also knows what is happening behind the curtain) is not something extremely unreasonable in my opinion.

 

Of all people, you know best that trying to communicate ANYTHING back to the audience without having as much as "we are working on something" to share is not really a role which would be appreciated by pretty much anyone.

Consider being able to give out snippets of "we recognize the issues with this and that system and rebalancing or fixing changes are now available on test server" every few weeks. That alone would likely cut down on the bashing and cynicism of the players.

Add having the cojones to tell us "we tried to add XYZ which many of you asked for but we found it would be too problematic so we scrapped that idea" and you have a happy and informed player base, despite telling them something they want will not get done.

 

Especially point c), i would hope that's exactly what the suggestions section of the forums is here for.

 

Over the years, "communication" became a buzz-word in Wurm and it's never used in positive context and the saddest part is that it's not a new phenomena, we are asking for it for years and very little is being done about it. Retro/Demona might be the best relationship experts but if they are not allowed to share or, worse, aren't told... they will never be able to do her job effectively and you know exactly how much grief and hate and depressing comments this causes.

 

At least you are in the better position, even if not vocal about it, that people now realize what many of us suspected for a long time. It wasn't Retro that was bad at his job and was replaced. It was Retro not having the tools and information to do the one thing he was hired to do. With Demona being in the same boat, i feel sorry for her, just as i was for you.  

 

Back on topic: A working channel between players and devs is something people are regularly asking for.

Or close the suggestions section entirely until such time that Devs have the capacity to take on new ideas AND talk to us about them. For all we know they might have 20 different, amazing, new things they are working on which will be released when they are ready but not having any details and reading "we are working on something big" for the last few years simply drives us away. 

 

Hell, ask one of the devs, once a month, each month a different person to spend an hour in the suggestions section and comment on those that are feasible and -might- get looked at deeper.

One hour, once a month, one dev at a time.

 

Or with similar frequency, devs could simply make a quick post telling us what said dev is working on currently.

Not a roadmap, i think we all gave up on that. Just sit down and type up something along the lines "i'm working on adding tea to the game, graphics are done, client side is done, logic is being worked on by me and SoandSo. Few bug fixes, rebalancing the frog/toad sounds because they are overpowered and give the frogs an unfair advantage over players". 

Each month a different developer.

Please.

 

This....all this.

[Archaed 2,280]

You are asking for valrei internationals, more discussion about ongoing content, nothing more. (something I agree with wholeheartedly!) 

 

That however, is completely unrelated to this suggestion of having someone whose job is to get suggestions into the game. 

 

Also what's this about me being replaced? I stepped down as I had another job

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Archaed

[CreZ 284]

6 hours ago, Locath said:

 tell us "we tried to add XYZ which many of you asked for but we found it would be too problematic so we scrapped that idea" and you have a happy and informed player base, despite telling them something they want will not get done.

 

 

[...]

Or close the suggestions section entirely until such time that Devs have the capacity to take on new ideas AND talk to us about them. For all we know they might have 20 different, amazing, new things they are working on which will be released when they are ready but not having any details and reading "we are working on something big" for the last few years simply drives us away. 

 

Seriously, do anything to make it appear like slightly less of a total waste of everyone's time or just get rid of it.  Better for a player to feel like there is no channel for suggesting things than for the game to promote one and then have it make people feel unheard or unwanted. Even just saying "No" to things would be nice. Ideally it would be nice to see two subs that suggestions can be archived to "will not implement" and "under consideration". Doing such would even help train people to provide better suggestions by seeing which have some measure of success.

 

Plus think of all the energy spent on moderation and the bad feelings these threads create between community members (this sub is a giant snitfest most of the time as though denigrating other soltuions will empower your own or something). Is it really worth having it?

[Finnn 3,303]

true

[Idlamn 297]

The only thing they can do is get someone to cherry pick the good suggestions and add them to their backlog. In addition to that they need to be labelled according to the area of the game they are affecting at least (combat, cooking, exploration, AH etc.), as well as estimated in business value and cost, and for the latter you need the devs. This way they can identify from all the suggestions first of all the quick wins then things that are valuable.

 

That is the way things are usually done, and I have a feeling they are already doing this. Having followed the game for such a long time, I always saw that they picked very interesting things to do in the updates and such, so I think when it comes to choosing what to add they are making good choices. How much they are using the suggestion forums I am not sure.

 

But no matter how well organized you have your ideas and plans and whatnot, you still need the manpower to get them done.

That's the real problem. Maybe what they can do is have someone pick, out of the suggestion forums, quick wins, like this one:

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Idlamn