Darnok

Darnok's creature suggestions

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18 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

 

Such gameplay does not arouse emotions in players. If the game is to be exciting this has to change.

 

 

Apparently you find Wurm boring.

This isn't something you're going to be able to change from the suggestions and ideas forum.

A better idea would be to find a game that you like, and let the people who like Wurm, enjoy Wurm.

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22 hours ago, Drayka said:

There's a difference between not caring how people feel, and learning to ignore how people feel as white-noise that is trying to destroy you, if only the difference between perspective of being the person feeling the emotion, and the perspective of the person being assaulted by the emotions of others.

 

Given a limited choice between ignoring emotions, and using emotions as weapons against each other, ignoring how people feel is the more logical solution.

 

Live long and prosper.

 

There's a difference between whatever you're talking about and how most people respond to things. But in terms of suggesting improvements to Wurm, that butters no parsnips.

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Well.

Thanks for being up front about not caring about how other people think.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Lethyria said:

Not sure what your point on pelts is... at this point 90ql pelts are often free on NFI

 

 

This is exactly what I see as a problem. The moment a resource becomes so common that it is free, something is wrong.

 

Quote

 

if you make the game over complex in every mechanic it will become too tedious and put people off

 

 

That's why I don't want to make the game too complex.

For the new and average player, nothing will change, they will continue to receive low and medium ql pelts, hides, meat etc regardless of the weapon used and even with low level of butchering.
But the highest quality of these resources will only be available to specialized hunters who know how to kill animals without damaging important parts and have high level of butchering.

 

Quote


I keep getting the feeling that you are trying to use a stick to punish playstyles you don't like. Surely a better solution to AH would be to create a system that enables you to get better results than currently when using a smaller herd. As it currently is herds are large because of the rng and time involved in breeding, this is the optimal way of getting the animals you want in the shortest time.

 

If you want to make AH use smaller herds try to come up with a system that would give you a good upside for investing time or a limited resource (like care for) into a few horses to give them a significant benefit, not just ways of making the game more tedious to play in the current meta. I've not got a good suggestion here but coming up with ways of punishing an existing playstyle because of a debated issue doesn't seem like a productive way of moving ah forward. 

 

In my opinion, to balance a system you can either make easier what is difficult or make harder what is too easy.

The development of AH and farming would be useful in Wurm in my opinion (farming is another suggestion),

but AH problems are solved by suggestions such as animal training or traits gained depending on in what kind of pen animal is in (read OP).

On the previous page, I came up with the idea to give the animals high ql food and that this should have an impact on quality of raw resources produced by animal.

 

If you were to hand-feed a large herd it would be clear that this would be a tedious solution, but this is why this mechanism should exist to naturally limit size of herd.

 

There should not be only one gamestyle that allows players to passively breed animals as currently, because then the one with the greater deed will always have more with better traits etc, and that will raise P2W-style comments.
But if, on a smaller deed, active player could feed a large herd, and less active player would give his animals more space and his herd would feed itself, the game would be fairly balanced.
Because in this respect, the game is balanced, allowing both players to achieve same result. At the moment, there is no alternative to a large herd and a large deed, so only one gamestyle is allowed.

Edited by Darnok

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Posted (edited)

I haven’t been closely following this thread, but I feel compelled to comment on these claims some are making that it’s easy to find wild horses on Cadence.

 

These claims are simply false.  I have not seen a single wild horse there in many, many months, and I ride around Cad a lot, both on- and off-road.  Occasionally you’ll come across one that has clearly walked off a fallen deed, but that’s it.  

 

I can well understand the frustration and disappointment that Darnok and other newer players rightly feel about this circumstance, and I sympathize with their desire to understand why it is the case and find a way to correct it.

Edited by Minnie

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27 minutes ago, Minnie said:

These claims are simply false.  I have not seen a single wild horse there in many, many months, and I ride around Cad a lot, both on- and off-road.  Occasionally you’ll come across one that has clearly walked off a fallen deed, but that’s it.  

 

Probably because on Cadence, similar to Desertion (where I speak from experience) donkey spawns have overwritten horse spawns. Horses used to spawn in steppes / grasslands, now donkeys spawn in steppes in droves and in grasslands. 

 

This coupled with excessive breeding, aka megabreeders that have 100+ horses on deed + other animals makes it so those living horses take up the % of the total animal pool. Simply put, no horses can spawn if the max cap of horses is reached on a server. New foals can be bred however but no new horsie spawns. 

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6 minutes ago, elentari said:

Probably because on Cadence, similar to Desertion (where I speak from experience) donkey spawns have overwritten horse spawns. Horses used to spawn in steppes / grasslands, now donkeys spawn in steppes in droves and in grasslands. 

 

Wild spawns dried up long before donkeys were introduced.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Darnok said:

This is exactly what I see as a problem. The moment a resource becomes so common that it is free, something is wrong.

But how would you grandfather in this solution, you'd create a window of opportunity where people with stockpiles of high ql pelts have a valuable resource. Carpenters aren't required to grind blacksmithing and weaponsmithing to get hold of a high ql file and carving knife as they can get some high ql iron and roll the dice to get one, why are smiths suddenly required to become breeders to do their trade. If you want an incentive you could look at fat layers, as pelt animals do not graze so fed animals are more likely to have better fat layers, you could take this and use it to increase the average ql of resources butchered from them. Then add rare rolls to butchering so that the potential upside to getting lots of well fed animals and butchering them gives a better chance of a rare pelt at high ql. 
 

3 hours ago, Darnok said:

For the new and average player, nothing will change, they will continue to receive low and medium ql pelts, hides, meat etc regardless of the weapon used and even with low level of butchering.

I got a 90ql pelt within the first couple of months with below 20 butchering, you can get high ql pelts as a new player now. With regards to weapon choice you are really encroaching on an important feature by trying to make certain weapons preferable which will inevitably lead to less interesting weapon balance, its a nice thematic idea but I think we want more weapon diversity not just for people to skew to the one that gives the best resources.

 

In terms of your training idea, it is an interesting concept and without getting into biology of real life animals, which I'm certainly not qualified to discuss, it could be an interesting gameplay loop if you were to introduce horse training equipment where you could lead an animal, perform an action with an animal husbandry skill check to increase the chance of getting more draft, speed, output or misc traits. The problem with your concept of just ride the horse is I don't believe that is currently tracked so you'd have to build a system that adds a skill check for riding around which I would guess could lead to some lag since there is already a lot of travel lag when people start heading home after rifts and uniques. This also doesn't scale well to output and misc, and I personally think having an animal husbandry system is a better gameplay loop than having a separate system for each of the trait types. The other concern is that it would be horribly macroable as you'd just have to weigh down 2 keys in a big area and could ride indefinitely, and avoiding this would further complicate the system. 

 

 

Edited by Lethyria

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I do like the refinement of Goblins, but rather make a specialised goblin a rarer spawn. So you have Goblin miner, Goblin Fisher, Goblin cook, Goblin mason, goblin leatherworker, goblin priest ...brainstorm etc

and when you kill them they drop related loot (or more rarely related tools), Goblin miner = random ore, stone, random metal pickaxe, Goblin mason = random bricks, stone, slabs, random metal stone chisel, Goblin cook, random meats/butchered/filleted/diced, seeds or herbs or veg, random cooking container/tool

That way they fit into already existing game mechanics.

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Beavers, nice and unusual idea for a new creature.

I agree make the dam like a beehive, but simplify your idea to again fit with game mechanics.

So you can loot from the dam itself, logs, branches, twigs, shafts...woodscraps etc of the quality of the dam, which is nicer for new players and gives them a chance to get higher ql wood etc without unbalancing the game too much.

If they implement the creature itself, the butchered stuff would have to be what's already in game to fit with cooking/crafting already in place, so fur, game meat, and teeth.

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Posted (edited)

Wolfdog

I think most of that might be covered by the new breeding stuff we have. We can breed wolves and dogs separately for traits we want and we can already tame both as pets.

However if they ever bring in dogs and wolves with breedable appearances (like donkeys, mules, horses, colours shapes sizes etc) then yeah breeding wolves with dogs might be workable.

Edited by Hailiah
addition

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Lethyria said:

But how would you grandfather in this solution, you'd create a window of opportunity where people with stockpiles of high ql pelts have a valuable resource.

 

The transition period would probably promote such players for a while, but that would pass quickly.

 

Quote

 

Carpenters aren't required to grind blacksmithing and weaponsmithing to get hold of a high ql file and carving knife as they can get some high ql iron and roll the dice to get one, why are smiths suddenly required to become breeders to do their trade.

 

Where does the carpenter get file or carving knife from?

 

Quote

 

If you want an incentive you could look at fat layers, as pelt animals do not graze so fed animals are more likely to have better fat layers, you could take this and use it to increase the average ql of resources butchered from them. Then add rare rolls to butchering so that the potential upside to getting lots of well fed animals and butchering them gives a better chance of a rare pelt at high ql. 

 

 

I know how it works, I want to just expand this feature further.

 

Quote

 

With regards to weapon choice you are really encroaching on an important feature by trying to make certain weapons preferable which will inevitably lead to less interesting weapon balance, its a nice thematic idea but I think we want more weapon diversity not just for people to skew to the one that gives the best resources.

 

Axes destroy wooden fences more easily?
Are Mauls better vs walls?
Then why can't spears/arrows/swords be better for hunting?

 

Quote

In terms of your training idea, it is an interesting concept and without getting into biology of real life animals, which I'm certainly not qualified to discuss, it could be an interesting gameplay loop if you were to introduce horse training equipment where you could lead an animal, perform an action with an animal husbandry skill check to increase the chance of getting more draft, speed, output or misc traits.

 

Animals are trained for racing, so...

 

Quote

 

The problem with your concept of just ride the horse is I don't believe that is currently tracked so you'd have to build a system that adds a skill check for riding around which I would guess could lead to some lag since there is already a lot of travel lag when people start heading home after rifts and uniques.

 

The game keeps track of how many km you have traveled, I didn't go into these statistics so much, but maybe it distinguishes what you used for transportation.

 

Quote

This also doesn't scale well to output and misc, and I personally think having an animal husbandry system is a better gameplay loop than having a separate system for each of the trait types. The other concern is that it would be horribly macroable as you'd just have to weigh down 2 keys in a big area and could ride indefinitely, and avoiding this would further complicate the system. 

 

 

Unless skill gain for an animal would only occur when the player receives some skill gain, e.g. by fighting, collecting fruit from trees, using a falconer's glove, etc.

 

Edited by Darnok

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1 minute ago, Darnok said:

The transition period would probably promote such players for a while, but that would pass quickly.

You underestimate how many 90ql pelts there are and how many are needed.

 

2 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Where does the carpenter get file or carving knife from?

They can make one, without grinding those skills too much, they are easy creation actions, might not be the most efficient way and sure some pay but if you want to sweet spot to 70 skill you'll want at least 70ql tools.

 

3 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I know how it works, I want to just expand this feature further.

Sure I get that but adding additional tracked stats seems like an unnecessary overcomplication to me.

 

4 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Axes destroy wooden fences more easily?
Are Mauls better vs walls?
Then why can't spears/arrows/swords be better for hunting?

Bashing weapons are made from lead typically and have 0 benefit from weapon skill, hunting it the best way of getting weapon skills these are disparate please don't try to compare them.

 

5 minutes ago, Darnok said:

The game keeps track of how many km you have traveled, I didn't go into these statistics so much, but maybe it distinguishes by what kind of transport type you traveled.

This is tracked by the client not the server, adding more logic to movement is not a good idea imo.

 

5 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Unless skill gain for an animal would only occur when the player receives some skill gain, e.g. by fighting, collecting fruit from trees, using a falconer's glove, etc.

More complicated cross tracking systems, the game is based on actions and skillchecks and most players like that, try to keep to that.

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22 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

If you didn't notice, a lot of steam players simply walked away without a word of complaint. I'm a little more stubborn than they are.

 

 

And my idea from the previous post does not change this mechanic in any way. Still, the butchering skill would play an important role here, except that even if you had 100 skill level, you couldn't get 100ql pelt/hide/meat from a poorly kept animal.

 

 

Challenge accepted 🤔😄

 

 

 

My solution gives you several gamestyles. You can be a hunter or a breeder, at the moment, as you have stated yourself, you do not have that possibility, because game promotes one gamestyle - animal husbandry is the most profitable source of high ql pelts and hides.

 

 

Yes, but keeping animals in 2x1 tiles should not be profitable.
My idea would be that if you had several animals with a large number of traits output, you could keep them in a 2x1 pen and manually feed them or give them bowl with food and so thanks to high traits you would have a lot of profit as a breeder.

But if you wanted to own a lot of animals and get a lot of high ql pelts, hides and meat from them, but you wouldn't want to feed them, then you would have to give them a lot of space and that would cost you.

So that should be pretty fair, active and a hardworking breeder could afford a large herd on a small deed, but a less active breeder would need a larger deed to maintain a herd of the same size (another level where my idea would be balanced).

 

 

Harsh winter (only available plant food during winter) + food to increase quality of resources obtained from animal

these are two ideas for hay that I proposed in this thread.

Why you quote something if you do not intend to answer or reply to anything related to the quoted by you.

I had several questions about the sources where you get your information from - you completely ignored them.

Could you give us some of your attention and read before replying with irrelevant sentences?

There are questions directed to you and you ignore them, this is hardly a discussion.

 

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Darnok isn't interested in discussion, or in making better suggestions, or, apparently, based on other threads, even in learning mechanics before proposing changes to them.

 

When you hear things like "2x1 tiles should not be profitable" it's clear that Darnok is only interested in making life harder for the people that Darnok doesn't like.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sheffie said:

Darnok isn't interested in discussion, or in making better suggestions, or, apparently, based on other threads, even in learning mechanics before proposing changes to them.

 

When you hear things like "2x1 tiles should not be profitable" it's clear that Darnok is only interested in making life harder for the people that Darnok doesn't like.

 

2x1 pens looks terrible and they make sense, but in stables, not in the open.

 

The idea that gives player a choice, in my opinion, is better than current system, i.e. passive breeding, which only promotes players with a big deed and a big herd, because that's the only way to get a large number of animals with good traits.

 

In my opinion, adding training and requiring animal to be fed so that the raw materials would be of high quality would create two gamestyles.

- One would be a player with little deed who trains his animals to direct the development of their traits. It also feeds them to obtain the best quality of pelts, hides and meat raw materials.

- The second would be a more passive player like right now, but he would need a bigger deed and if he could handle to feed his animals during winter maybe even he would have to buy hay for silver from other players or NPCs.

Animals in large pens could still feed themselves during warm seasons, and if fed, they would still have a good ql of raw materials.

In large pen they could also train traits, such as speed, just by running around without player interaction.

 

Animals that player care for would get more skill gain than others during training.

 

Feeding and harsh winter would be the two factors that would naturally reduce size of herds.

 

15 hours ago, Finnn said:

Why you quote something if you do not intend to answer or reply to anything related to the quoted by you.

I had several questions about the sources where you get your information from - you completely ignored them.

Could you give us some of your attention and read before replying with irrelevant sentences?

There are questions directed to you and you ignore them, this is hardly a discussion.

 

 

"Normal fighting (fighting subskill). "Max combat rating bonus for normal fighting was raised to 2.5" -Release notes July 12, 2011"

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Combat_rating

Edited by Darnok

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darnok said:

"Normal fighting (fighting subskill). "Max combat rating bonus for normal fighting was raised to 2.5" -Release notes July 12, 2011"

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Combat_rating

Unfortunately thats outdated info, normal adds up to 0.5 cr and aggressive adds up to 1.5 cr.

 

(Source: 

)

Edited by Lethyria
added source

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Lethyria said:

Unfortunately thats outdated info, normal adds up to 0.5 cr and aggressive adds up to 1.5 cr.

 

 

 

Does that mean the aggressive style not only has increased damage, but also hits more easily?
It doesn't make sense, what's the point of the other styles then? Just remove them and leave aggressive style at this point.
You write that my ideas limit gameplay, but choice of different gamestyles in Wurm is already limited to ONE, because it forces everyone to do same thing in every aspect of game and over and over again.

Edited by Darnok

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5 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Does that mean the aggressive style not only has increased damage, but also hits more easily?
It doesn't make sense, what's the point of the other styles then?
You write that my ideas limit gameplay, but choice of different gamestyles in Wurm is already limited to ONE, because it forces everyone to do same thing in every aspect of game and over and over again.

I'm not saying its good, the swing time reduction for 2h weapons makes it the dominant style on pve, but just informing you of how it is.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Darnok said:


You write that my ideas limit gameplay, but choice of different gamestyles in Wurm is already limited to ONE, because it forces everyone to do same thing in every aspect of game and over and over again.


This remark is freaking hilarious...

You are trying to push us all to play the playstyle you choose saying anything else is not ok, like small outdoor pens. If I like small outdoor pens it is totaly up to me. I don't give a dime for your taste in how things look or work.
This is a sandbox game. There are as many playstyles as there are players.
If you want to limit gameplay to your taste, go start your own WU server and get the mods you want.

Edited by Cecci
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24 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Does that mean the aggressive style not only has increased damage, but also hits more easily?
It doesn't make sense, what's the point of the other styles then? Just remove them and leave aggressive style at this point.

the extra damage you take is much more than the increase in damage that you get, uses about double the stamina for combat actions, and by forcing aggressive you're basically removing any point to shields existing pre-90 skill. about as well thought out an argument as your average suggestion i guess

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Lethyria said:

I'm not saying its good, the swing time reduction for 2h weapons makes it the dominant style on pve, but just informing you of how it is.

 

I understand and I am grateful for the updated information. It's just that my idea of a normal fighting style buff makes even more sense at this point.

 

9 hours ago, Cecci said:


This remark is freaking hilarious...

You are trying to push us all to play the playstyle you choose saying anything else is not ok, like small outdoor pens. If I like small outdoor pens it is totaly up to me. I don't give a dime for your taste in how things look or work.
This is a sandbox game. There are as many playstyles as there are players.
If you want to limit gameplay to your taste, go start your own WU server and get the mods you want.

 

Can you name these playstyle? If there are as many of playstyles as players, then giving 5 examples for breeders should not be a problem for you.

 

If you read my OP suggestions and other my comments carefully, I haven't written anywhere that 2x1 should be banned, it just shouldn't be as much profitable as it is right now, and that's the difference.

It is this difference that more than one playstyle is supposed to provide.

 

8 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

the extra damage you take is much more than the increase in damage that you get, uses about double the stamina for combat actions, and by forcing aggressive you're basically removing any point to shields existing pre-90 skill. about as well thought out an argument as your average suggestion i guess

 

130% dmg, faster attack speed and more accurate hits... I guess nothing else can be added to make this fighting style more overpowered.

But then idea with an addition to normal style and better quality resources would be perfect bonus.

 

Btw I'd love to see 100 duels of players with the same skill and equipment, but using different fighting styles (aggressive vs normal, aggressive vs defensive, normal vs defensive).
I wonder which fighting style would win more duels, maybe someone can do this in WU and copy same skills levels and items on two characters and test it?

 

Edited by Darnok

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10 hours ago, Darnok said:

You write that my ideas limit gameplay, but choice of different gamestyles in Wurm is already limited to ONE, because it forces everyone to do same thing in every aspect of game and over and over again.

At least the current game have progression and some options, your suggestion lack any choice for play style and no future improvement, only rng and forced play, does not sound like anything fun, does it?

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I admire your patience still discussing .. it is bit like talking against a wall though.

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