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Darnok

Darnok's creature suggestions

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Oh I think I see! Didn't read all of that later stuff yet because it got very involved-progressive with negative-reactive to negative-reaction.

 

@Darnokthis is a Massively-Multiplayer game. Think about that a moment. The point of it isn't to make it into a pure single-player / limited-multiplayer game like Diablo 2.

 

Your playstyle is minimal-player interaction, which is the opposite style to the genre Wurm as a game belongs to.

 

That means that most of the content in this game - which your often suggestions aim to impact unilaterally - is not designed for your playstyle as the central event. Content that suits you is only available as a beginner phase of MMO gaming.

 

Diablo 2 did not suit me. I would never play it single-player, beyond Act 1 - Normal, because I found it pointless.

 

Wurm Online does not suit your playstyle beyond 'the beginner phase'. You can play that over and over, as I did Act 1 - Normal of Diablo 2; but the Diablo franchise was never going to suit me or be altered to suit my playstyle as the central premise.

 

Thus, you are going to keep running into insurmountable resistance from those who find meaning in the Massively Multiplayer Sandbox elements of Wurm gameplay, just as I kept running into insurmountable resistance from a linear-RPG game that was designed to be capable of being played and won solo.

 

Thus, it is not that your game designs are flawed, but that you are pitching them unilaterally to the wrong genre of game. Your vision is of a Limited Multiplayer Sandbox that can be meaningfully played solo. And Wurm isn't that game and will never be that game.

 

Some of your ideas would, in some limited capacity, be helpful for us to take into account for new players, and players that withdraw from the bulk of the community for periods of time, to support having a breathing space from drama that still feels meaningful to play.

 

HOWEVER. That playstyle is AT BEST only half of the style that Wurm aims to provide functionality for. Whereas your suggestions are pitched in such a way as it is to be seen as the only valid playstyle, which all other playstyles should be annihilated-with-extreme-prejudice for.

 

I like your hunting/fishing/gathering familiar pet-suggestion, before edit.

 

Please write ME a pet-suggestion for a mining/digging/woodcutting/paving familiar, for priests.

 

You can use drakelings/dragonets (related to dragons but separate creatures, like goblins aren't trolls) for mining.

 

Just leave the existing dragons alone as pure-MMO content, okay? They aren't relevant to you.

Edited by Drayka

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8 hours ago, Drayka said:

 

@Darnokthis is a Massively-Multiplayer game. Think about that a moment. The point of it isn't to make it into a pure single-player / limited-multiplayer game like Diablo 2.

 

Your playstyle is minimal-player interaction, which is the opposite style to the genre Wurm as a game belongs to.

 

That means that most of the content in this game - which your often suggestions aim to impact unilaterally - is not designed for your playstyle as the central event. Content that suits you is only available as a beginner phase of MMO gaming.

 

Diablo 2 did not suit me. I would never play it single-player, beyond Act 1 - Normal, because I found it pointless.

 

Wurm Online does not suit your playstyle beyond 'the beginner phase'. You can play that over and over, as I did Act 1 - Normal of Diablo 2; but the Diablo franchise was never going to suit me or be altered to suit my playstyle as the central premise.

 

Every game is pointless... except maybe chess.

 

Raising skills above 20 in Wurm is also pointless and it doesn't bring anything new, ie you have to do the same all the time no matter what kind of skill you pick to level up, I am pressing H (imp) and G (repair) and that is half of my time spend in game.

Diablo 2 had a very broken skill system that the developers reworked many times after game came out, but still it was a better system than the one from Wurm, because you had a few professions that were played a bit differently.

Thanks to this, leveling the character was so fast that it did not get boring to 60-70 level. In Wurm, leveling crafting skills after level 40 is already slow and boring and each level requires so many repetitions of the same activity that most players quit at this point.

 

Leveling combat skills above 60 is boring, because there is no stronger normal/common opponents than trolls, in D2 they had no idea for more mobs, so they made the difficulty levels nightmare and hell with the same mobs only increased the stats. It's silly, but it worked.

Maybe Wurm would need something like that? An island where I can go and hunt wolves and bears with 30-50+ FS (according to wiki standard).

 

If there were several professions that cannot do everything, but level selected skills faster, the game would be more interesting to many many people.

 

In Diablo 2 each profession had unique skills, although they were underdeveloped, because each character had one skill so strong that all others might not exist and it would not affect gameplay (2handed-axe and steel plate armor problem in Wurm).

Weapon damage vs spell damage balance was also broken and while the problem with developing one skill was somehow solved by adding synergies, weapon dmg vs spell dmg balance is still broken even today in D2.

I did not play a priest, so I have no comparison what the balance of weapon damage vs spell damage in Wurm looks like.

 

Quote

Thus, you are going to keep running into insurmountable resistance from those who find meaning in the Massively Multiplayer Sandbox elements of Wurm gameplay, just as I kept running into insurmountable resistance from a linear-RPG game that was designed to be capable of being played and won solo.

Quote

Just leave the existing dragons alone as pure-MMO content, okay? They aren't relevant to you.

 

And here's the problem, because from my perspective, you want dragons to be single-player-content, that's why you lock them in mines.

I want dragons to become part of the MMO content and be at least visible (as to killing a dragon is another matter, newbies shouldn't do that, they should fear the winter and run away from dragons) to everyone.

 

Maybe I'm weird, but I think that PvE threats in PvE game are the norm and the game should make more and more challenges in this respect, if one player cannot protect his deed from too strong PvE threat, we have content that helps to create a community in the game, because players have to unite to be safe.

 

I see an MMO game as a game that poses some challenges for the player and in my ideas the main challenge in PvE servers would be to survive the winter (harsh winter + aggressive dragons + seasonal animals), right now there is no challenge in PvE servers, maybe except griefers.

You, on the other hand, want a medieval sim, where everyone is 100% safe at any time of the year from any PvE content. At this point in my opinion, you might as well remove all animals from server and leave only option to build and terraform.

 

If you've already mentioned games being pointless, what's the point game that looks like that?

If you want to build castles that are 100% safe, learn to design houses in 3D and you will have the same as in your version of Wurm.

 

Quote

Thus, it is not that your game designs are flawed, but that you are pitching them unilaterally to the wrong genre of game. Your vision is of a Limited Multiplayer Sandbox that can be meaningfully played solo. And Wurm isn't that game and will never be that game.

 

Each character can have 100 level of each skill or not?

Each player can own any number of alts, and any level 1 alt can own a deed.

Wurm was designed to play solo, because each player can have all professions/skills and own as many deeds as he wants, he does not need other players for this.

And the fact that PvE content does not pose a threat to players is another argument for this and another problem for community building.

 

Quote

Some of your ideas would, in some limited capacity, be helpful for us to take into account for new players, and players that withdraw from the bulk of the community for periods of time, to support having a breathing space from drama that still feels meaningful to play.

 

HOWEVER. That playstyle is AT BEST only half of the style that Wurm aims to provide functionality for. Whereas your suggestions are pitched in such a way as it is to be seen as the only valid playstyle, which all other playstyles should be annihilated-with-extreme-prejudice for.


What playstyle should be allowed in PvE Wurm?

At the moment, the only correct playstyle is to lock dragons in mine... no other game styles allowed.

Dragon can be locked by single player? (it would be hard, but it can be done, right?)

Where is the place for MMO content? What would WoW look like if one player could lock boss for few weeks?

I am afraid that you and many others do not see that your solutions and current Wurm features impose the only one right playstyle.

 

 

 

Edited by Darnok

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ROFL. Love the generalisations. It's hilarious to think of these particular accusations being applied to me personally.

 

I DO get what you are saying, and why you are saying it. And I apologise for language and phrases you found irrational, but it IS helpful to hear your experience of other people in-general, regardless of the accuracy of the grammar as to whom you are speaking about..

 

I will rephrase a couple of points I've already covered:

 

Dragons, as currently exist, have a place in Wurm life that is highly-valued content by a minority percentage of Wurmians. A lot of players object to this being the case, but your reasons are not identical to theirs, though your reasons ARE more similar to theirs than mine. Which is not to say that their opinions are identical to each other, but that yours don't tend to overlap the written and voiced opinions of others that I have heard, as closely as they do each other.

 

Personally, I never saw a dragon in WO until I went on a PvP server, and hunting and fighting is not my big thing anyway. Neither is imping, neither is profit, neither is watching skills tick up. What I enjoy, I don't get to do much of in Wurm at this time - because other people don't want to play the game that way, not because it can't be played that way. Neither on PvE or PvP, can I find people who want to play that way, that would allow me to be part of their group. But I believe that if I'm patient, eventually it will happen.

 

So you see, my playstyle doesn't fit either yet, but I believe it will find its niche in Wurm in the future.

 

I believe your playstyle is valid, has a place alongside other styles in Wurm, and I'll speak in support of it and features for it, but not to the annihilation of other styles. I would and do defend styles I personally detest, as absolutely valid. I do defend the current dragon hunt style, but certainly not because it is my style. I defend it because, if that style isn't valid, then neither are many other fringe styles of gameplay.

 

I don't agree with many of your opinions, but I respect them as valid opinions, equal in value to my own. More important to me than my own, because I can hear my own opinion anytime.

 

I don't agree with many of your suggestions, but I respect them as valid suggestions, because its not up to me, or you, or anyone else who comments, what ends up in the game. It's forum content. Your suggestions are not a threat I have to attack, defend, agree with or reject. They are an opportunity to try to attempt to engage, using my imagination, with a playstyle I could not play myself.

 

I work daily on this vision of how all our different playstyles could fit together harmoniously - that's core to my playstyle. I want everyone to have access to enough ease/relaxation, enough challenge/frustration and enough excitement/fun, relative to their own style, for this game to be a meaningful medium of interaction that people want to play for years.

 

I don't think we're anywhere near there yet, and I want you to fight for your portion, not give up and go away. But nobody gets to enjoy ALL the content in ALL the game, without a bit of vicarious living - being happy that other people are getting what THEY want and need, even if it means we personally get a bit less of what we feel we want and need.

 

It's basically delegation. Delegating parts of the game content to other playstyles, means I don't have to find everything in the game directly relevant to me, to be worthy of being part of the game. It also means that as certain things aren't directly relevant to me, I need to be extra-careful not to mess up and drive other people who enjoy different things to me, out of the game.

 

In RL, I don't run on electricity or petrol or oil, but a lot of the machines in my life that make my life better, need these things to play their part in my life. Thus, I don't say that because I don't own a vehicle, petrol stations should be abolished so that I could have something directly relevant to me, there instead. Or that because I don't personally want a tattoo, tattoo parlours are a waste of space that could be used for something more relevant to me. There are thousands of shops that sell absolutely nothing that I would ever buy. That's not a reason to call for them and their stock to be abolished, in and of itself, to make space for what I would put there instead.

 

Does any of that make sense to you? My success in communicating is very hit-and-miss.

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16 hours ago, Drayka said:

 

I like your hunting/fishing/gathering familiar pet-suggestion, before edit.

 

 

Please write ME a pet-suggestion for a mining/digging/woodcutting/paving familiar, for priests.

 

You can use drakelings/dragonets (related to dragons but separate creatures, like goblins aren't trolls) for mining.

 

Mining and paving

Could there be goblins miners?

To catch a goblin you need a modify creature cage into trap cage (add a wheel, rope, hook) and put gem any ql inside.

 

Gem lures the goblins inside and the cage traps them.

After the goblin is released, it becomes non-aggressive for a few hours and you can talk to him and offer him a contract. For this you need a piece of paper and something to write in your inventory.

The conversation is a dialog where there is an option how many actions of mining or paving goblin will help you perform and the gem will belong to it.

 

You have several options each is for a thousands of actions to choose from, but the higher option you choose the harder it will be to convince the goblin to cooperate, success depends on the mind logic of the character.
If you fail, the goblin steals the gem and runs away.
If you manage to convince him, you will receive a contract in the inventory with information on how many actions goblin has performed and how many still have to make to finish contract.

The contract along with the goblin can be sold to another player.

 

A goblin worker has certain requirements, requires a simplest bed, bowls with food and a 1x1 room to reside in when he is not helping you mining.

 

When you go mining you choose right-click-menu on goblin or on contract and the goblin follows you through the mine and is mining same walls you mine for same amount of skill gain you get and same ql.

When you leave the mine, the goblin will teleport back to his room and eat, if the goblin is hungry for too long, he runs away with the gem and the contract ends.

 

You can hire a goblin if you have mining skill level at least 20 and for every next 30 levels you can have another goblin.
So for skill level:

20 - 1 goblin
50 - 2 goblins
80 - 3 goblins

 

Woodcutting

I've previously suggested beavers as animals that cut trees and live near water.
When an adult beaver spawned by the game builds a dam (container) where baby beavers and sometimes fish spawn, player can take the baby beaver and the fish too.

He transfers small beaver to another container - beaver nests, that he has built himself. This works like a hive, except that you simply move animal from one container to another.

 

Baby beavers need fish and time to grow up. When they grow up, they can help player to cut trees and turn them into logs.
They will be able to move about 10 tiles around their nest, which can be moved like player made bee hive.

 

A nest below 50ql can only accommodate one small or large beaver.
A nest above 50ql can accommodate 2 large and 1 small beaver.
The only way to breed beavers in captivity is to wait for the right season when the young spawn in the nest, if of course there is a male and a female in it.

The little one may stay in the nest for some time, but if the player fails to move it to the new nest before it grows up, it escapes into the wild.

 

Adult beavers must be fed fish because they have not learned to hunt fish in water (they grew up in captivity).

Instead, they learned to look for fish on land. To determine which tree a beaver can cut down, the player throws the fish onto that tile.

Beavers find the felled trees themselves (in range of 10 tiles around nest) and chop them for logs.

 

For each beaver action, player receives skill gain depending on ql of fish (low ql hatchet more skill gain?). The quality of felled tree depends on the quality of nest, a 100 ql nest works like a 100 ql hatchet.

 

If there is a damaged boat, vehicle, or any other wooden object nearby, a beaver can transform it into wood scraps.

 

Digging and tracking - Wolfdog

A hybrid of a wolf and a dog.

Non-aggressive as a dog, but bigger and stronger than a wolf, sees as well at night as during the day.

 

Wolfdog can become a pet, but doesn't have to, just put dog collar on him when he's branded and he will follow you, but he won't help you in fight.

You can put a dog collar on max 4 wolfdogs (1 per every 10 AH skill levels), but you can't lead any more animals if you are using all 4 at same time.

When a player digs dirt/sand/clay he helps him, only does it slower than player, for every 2 dirt player digs he can dig 1 dirt, but you get your normal skill gain value.

 

Wolfdog can also bury objects or small chests and remember where he buried them, so player can hide something on any dirt/sand tile.

 

Additionally, wolfdog has a tracking bonus and function, when a player uses tracking skill on tile result is calculated with +10 bonus.

If wolfdog is tracking something he can do this on the run, camera view changes to wolfdog view and player controls wolfdog and sees the trace left by the hunted animal/player, while character follows him.

 

Sometimes, following a player, it may find a branch.

 

You can tell him to "stay and defend" then he blocks for few minutes the tile on which he is standing, in such a way that every player walking or riding a horse must avoid tile as if there was an obstacle on it.

Horse bumping into tile, with wolfdog in stay&defend mode, stops.

 

While on your deed you can type "help" in local chat and wolfdogs will act as tower guards.

 

 

Edited by Darnok
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14 minutes ago, Drayka said:

 

It's basically delegation. Delegating parts of the game content to other playstyles, means I don't have to find everything in the game directly relevant to me, to be worthy of being part of the game. It also means that as certain things aren't directly relevant to me, I need to be extra-careful not to mess up and drive other people who enjoy different things to me, out of the game.

 

 

 

It seems to me that if players absolutely want to keep a strong mob in the mine, they have a few unique mobs to choose from OR possibly some new underground unique mob could be used for this playstyle.

Dragons can run most of the time between players without hurting anyone. Why design such a huge mob with so many different colors and then lock it in a 1x1 mine, it doesn't make sense.

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3 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

It seems to me that if players absolutely want to keep a strong mob in the mine, they have a few unique mobs to choose from OR possibly some new underground unique mob could be used for this playstyle.

Dragons can run most of the time between players without hurting anyone. Why design such a huge mob with so many different colors and then lock it in a 1x1 mine, it doesn't make sense.

Why do you - assuming you play Wurm at this point - use bsbs and fsbs? It's hardly realistic to dump every resource in the game into tiny, generic containers like this. Yet, I believe even you would not say that bsbs should be abolished, or if you were to do so, that you couldn't appreciate why they are desirable to have, as a game convention.

 

Same principle.

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they can get there scale n bits easy any change may wreck that ,  we have a right to give our opinion weather you like it or not ,you cant tell someone to go play another game cause u dont like his input, keep up the good work ,you get more bites than i do

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The ratio of complexity to reward here is too high. Why not just tame a beaver, for example?

Also, parts of this smell like unattended gameplay.

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On 8/20/2021 at 7:16 AM, kochinac said:

lol, sorry to break it to you, but dragon that cannot be attacked while he goes around eating sheep and can be slain only at winter, while it lay eggs and burn around, oh and also throws hibernation chambers around is far from simple and fair solution.

I don't know how old are you and what you do, but designing gameplay isn't one of your strong points, it's one thing being over imaginative as you clearly are but differently other thing to fit imaginations to something that can be playable as a game.

 

Thanks for the summary of the TL/DR OP

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I wouldn't like the comet thing. They did a good job in removing the unique announcement I think. It gives explorers the possibility to find a unique.

I had my deed attacked by a champion troll king on Serenity. He just destroyed a few fences/walls until the kingdom came together and we took it down. I can't imagine a unique causing massive damage to people's settlements would be any fun. It's not like some dragon attacking NPC houses. It's attacking stuff people put effort in, and that would not be very fun.

 

Telescopes would be cool, but dunno what function they can serve. 

 

Hibernation pods in Wurm sounds like Tek tier stuff from Ark. Sorcery and magic exists in Wurm but it's more exclusive than in typical RPGs. I really like this approach.

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I want to like it, but I don't yet like it. It tries too hard to be impressive, by instead being extremely complicated.

 

  • Flaw 1; goblin miner: HIRELING as opposed to PET, requires you to have the very skill you don't have, which is why you would want an NPC miner in the first place. etc. etc. ... too much to list
  • Flaw 2; beaver: Gamebreaking vermin mob introduced to ensure that no-one will ever be able to find one. etc. etc. ... too much to list
  • Flaw 3; wolfdog: Exploitable mob mechanics in a self-contradicting critter. KOS again. etc. etc. ... too much to list

 

These are hellspawns - enslaved-demon seeded creations that have a tormented agenda of their own that trumps any service they could offer. Literally pitiful creatures.

 

Invert that seeding.

 

Try for something more bored/purposeless and invisibly self-sufficient, that has strength and time to spare to weaklings they pity and that entertain them - crippled players.

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Just now, Archaed said:

😭😭😭😭😭

Was that for your benefit, the general community's, or the OP? Because that cue will mean nothing to the OP.

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@Darnokdon't get me wrong, there's a place in Wurm for hellspawn creations and complex interactions with them. But there's development steps to put in place before such things can be introduced.

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2 hours ago, Drayka said:

Was that for your benefit, the general community's, or the OP? Because that cue will mean nothing to the OP.

It's a general feeling in regards to the continued suggestions from Darnok that are contrary to both the general player views, the style and development of the game, and repeated feedback. It's someone shouting bad ideas from a soapbox and then dismissing feedback. 

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14 hours ago, Sheffie said:

The ratio of complexity to reward here is too high. Why not just tame a beaver, for example?

Also, parts of this smell like unattended gameplay.

 

For the same reason that the fact that I will build a bee hive prevents me from catching and placing bees in it.

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6 hours ago, Drayka said:

I want to like it, but I don't yet like it. It tries too hard to be impressive, by instead being extremely complicated.

 

  • Flaw 1; goblin miner: HIRELING as opposed to PET, requires you to have the very skill you don't have, which is why you would want an NPC miner in the first place. etc. etc. ... too much to list

 

Wait so, did you mean pets only for priests?

If the priest does not have the ability to mine, then... goblin can be expanded to such an extent that for the duration of the contract he is treated as a branded animal and you can give him items such as a pickaxe and depending on ql of pickaxe game will calculate your skill gain.

The player selects wall and selects the mining option, his character does not start mining, but goblin will do it

OR

in the goblin's panel you set what tunnel it should be (straight, down, up) and in which direction to mine (NSWE) and how many tiles.
But then the goblin should be limited in how many actions it can perform per hour.

 

Quote
  • Flaw 2; beaver: Gamebreaking vermin mob introduced to ensure that no-one will ever be able to find one. etc. etc. ... too much to list

 

Gamebreaking how? What causes the problem in finding it?

 

Quote
  • Flaw 3; wolfdog: Exploitable mob mechanics in a self-contradicting critter. KOS again. etc. etc. ... too much to list

 

Meaning?

The fact that you put your wolfdog on a defensive position and it helps slow down chase of too strong mobs or players in PvP would be exploded, how?

After all, wolfdog can be killed by another player at any time and he only stays in this position for a few minutes.

 

 

Edited by Darnok

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14 hours ago, Sheffie said:

 

Thanks for the summary of the TL/DR OP

 

That is straw man attack of someone who never read OP.

 

10 hours ago, Idlamn said:

I wouldn't like the comet thing. They did a good job in removing the unique announcement I think. It gives explorers the possibility to find a unique.

 

Why should the information that a dragon will appear on the map be bad?
In that case, I propose to remove the deed creation and expiration global message.

 

10 hours ago, Idlamn said:

I had my deed attacked by a champion troll king on Serenity. He just destroyed a few fences/walls until the kingdom came together and we took it down. I can't imagine a unique causing massive damage to people's settlements would be any fun. It's not like some dragon attacking NPC houses. It's attacking stuff people put effort in, and that would not be very fun.

 

I wrote that dragons should not fit in mines, so if you feel threatened in winter, you can always hide there.

I also do not understand, unique attacked structures or you standing behind the structures?

 

I imagine it that in winter, groups of dragon hunters would be riding on each map and only waiting for public information
"guys some dragon is attacking me, help"

 

10 hours ago, Idlamn said:

Telescopes would be cool, but dunno what function they can serve. 

 

A few months earlier, I had suggested astronomy and telescopes

 

.

 

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22 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Why should the information that a dragon will appear on the map be bad?

they used to have spawn messages and it turns out people only expecting to find dragons when theres a giant message/beam in the sky/whatever isn't very sandboxy and/or extremely easy for one group to dominate the content.

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On 8/15/2021 at 7:16 PM, Sheffie said:

 

See, this just sounds like sour grapes. It sounds like you arrived late to the party and you think anyone who's drunk should be kicked out.

 

If you want to make some comparisons, I suggest that... first few guests drank all the free alcohol, and the rest have to pay extra to get anything, would that be great party?

OR

Imagine there is a priest limit on the map, for example 1 priest for every 10 premium followers.
Knowing this limit, several hundred advanced players quickly create their priests when new map starts and the rest of the players can no longer play as priest, instead have to buy cast services or crystal orbs with spells from priests.

 

This is more or less how the animal limit works.

 

On 8/15/2021 at 11:00 PM, Drayka said:

 

I'm still wondering why he wants to play on the most densely populated PvE server, when he doesn't want to interact with neighbours except via money, and values good hunting opportunities. Sounds like a I'm-my-own-worst-enemy scenario to me.

 

Because on this server, the land is so shaped that even on the highest mountain I can ride on horse.

 

Edited by Darnok

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4 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

they used to have spawn messages and it turns out people only expecting to find dragons when theres a giant message/beam in the sky/whatever isn't very sandboxy and/or extremely easy for one group to dominate the content.

 

But coupled with the rest of my suggestion, one group would not be able to dominate the dragon hunt, because the mere fact that you could see a dragon hibernating in a crystal would get you nothing.

The race wouldn't start until winter, and until then, nobody would be following the dragon 24/7.

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6 hours ago, Archaed said:

It's a general feeling in regards to the continued suggestions from Darnok that are contrary to both the general player views, the style and development of the game, and repeated feedback. It's someone shouting bad ideas from a soapbox and then dismissing feedback. 

Unless you're gonna decide you're going to rise to the challenge of tutoring Darnok in how to post better suggestions, in a way that benefits him and not just the playerbase that want their attitude that he shouldn't be here ratified, that's not a particularly useful attitude for you to hold even for your own benefit. Especially on a thread where the REQUEST for specifically HIS input was quoted in the OP.

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