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Darnok

Darnok's creature suggestions

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46 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Progression, you might want to do more, but if that's all you can do.. it's all you do; FS and risk with fighting is unbalanced.. fighting high thread mobs wont be giving amazing returns as FS, but the -0.25 fs is there creeping around the corner if you crash/dc/etc.. and that leads to a rip.. some champs have good chance to kill drake/scale armored people, no matter of their skill/gear ql/enchants.. as we are. Threat is there, but balanced rewards for it is not.

You just add threat with no pay, who works and risks a lot for nothing? And there's no progression over time, just stale play, that's boring. Tell me one game that is making a boom with that model.

 

That's what I mean.
good game design = high risk, big reward,
bad design = high risk, zero reward,
bad design = zero risk big reward

 

The fact that a character with 70 + FS level up his weapon skill faster by hunting weak mobs that cannot kill him makes it, which option do we have in Wurm?

 

Quote

--edit

  

as mentioned.. players aren't enemies for that.. only issue is .. creatures hide on mountain peaks or steep sides of a mountain.. unreachable areas, if a desert/steppe/forest 'biome' gets cleared - it might take a bit to get new respawns - that sucks.. but overall - whenever you kill something, another somewhere else spawns... balancing it to spawn something closer.. is probably a QoL to look forward to.. in the future.. but that could also be exploited.. even if it seems 'amazing' to spawn +1 random creature for every kill you make in your local.. you'd that way be able to keep going and not need to explore at all, maybe a queue system with local based animal life is something that we could use in the future... even if you clear all in 1 area.. wild life wont/shouldn't respawn at the same spot instantly.. but after some time instead, which might not be what wurm is about.. so far - fighting skill grind involves exploring to find some kills.

 

If new and advanced players are forced to hunt same mob type, they have to compete with each other, it is clear that the more experienced player will win the competition, which will quickly discourage new player from game, because even at the beginning it will be difficult for him to find and kill anything. This is the design of Wurm that advanced player is enemy of newbie even in PvE.

 

Advanced players should skill up new skills for weapons differently, as it's probably a long topic for discussion, here I am only writing about my observations and where current system is leads to.

The suggestion that I described to some extent should limit this newbie vs advanced conflict, but fact that some of you guys want to skill all types of weapons at the same rate, hunting same types of mobs, as you were doing while skilling up your main/first weapon skill is also a very bad idea in my opinion.

 

 

Edited by Darnok

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12 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

That's what I mean.
good game design = high risk, big reward,
bad design = high risk, zero reward,
bad design = zero risk big reward

 

Change risk with "amount of work needed"

 

you are proposing "high amount of work needed, zero reward" 

 

your suggestion is bad design, because it does not encourage players to do anything, players who want fight skill DO NOT HUNT WEAK MOBS.

 

Wurm is not a zero sum game, stop thinking people are stealing things from you. 

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1 hour ago, Darnok said:

If new and advanced players are forced to hunt same mob type, they have to compete with each other, it is clear that the more experienced player will win the competition, which will quickly discourage new player from game, because even at the beginning it will be difficult for him to find and kill anything. This is the design of Wurm that advanced player is enemy of newbie even in PvE.

 

Ok, so say a vet is hunting on the outskirts of a server, killing everything. all the weak mobs respawn at random points in the map. Now he suddenly stops doing it because they're worth nothing to him. All the weak mobs now instead pile up in the area, where all the passive mobs closer to the starting town get even less frequent because they all get taken/killed, and newbies have to go on an hour trek to find these hunting lands. It just makes it worse for both parties, you can see this in effect by looking at the side of mountains (people can't hunt the mobs that go there so they pile up, some places have dozens of mobs littering the side of a mountain) or going to places people don't frequent often. You're still failing to realise that every time you kill a mob, another one spawns, so there's always more mobs to kill and not really any competition, you can very clearly see this in the server graphs that show the creature pop doesn't go down even after hunting sessions.

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23 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

Ok, so say a vet is hunting on the outskirts of a server, killing everything. all the weak mobs respawn at random points in the map. Now he suddenly stops doing it because they're worth nothing to him. All the weak mobs now instead pile up in the area, where all the passive mobs closer to the starting town get even less frequent because they all get taken/killed, and newbies have to go on an hour trek to find these hunting lands. It just makes it worse for both parties, you can see this in effect by looking at the side of mountains (people can't hunt the mobs that go there so they pile up, some places have dozens of mobs littering the side of a mountain) or going to places people don't frequent often. You're still failing to realise that every time you kill a mob, another one spawns, so there's always more mobs to kill and not really any competition, you can very clearly see this in the server graphs that show the creature pop doesn't go down even after hunting sessions.

 

I have a deed at the top of a mountain and can't see any mobs coming in, but a few months before it was completely different so I suspect something has changed during this time.

 

As for mob respawn, I know how it works and I know that the mob will not appear in the same region and this is a problem, because it's not about competing with players on the other side of the map, but with those who hunt in your area.

And this is zero sum game, every aspect of Wurm is zero sum game, but you do not notice it because you are hunting on an ancient server where maybe 20 people are playing.

 

1 hour ago, Archaed said:

 

Change risk with "amount of work needed"

 

you are proposing "high amount of work needed, zero reward" 

 

your suggestion is bad design, because it does not encourage players to do anything, players who want fight skill DO NOT HUNT WEAK MOBS.

 

Wurm is not a zero sum game, stop thinking people are stealing things from you. 

 

What kind of work do you mean?
We write about leveling weapon skills, not about farming on deed, which should be 100% safe, because there are people who don't like to take risks, so they will level up other skills, but that doesn't mean such players should get 100% safe hunting in Wurm.

PvE is supposed to be PvE with the risk of mobs killing you, not mediaval sim 2000.

Edited by Darnok

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4 minutes ago, Darnok said:

And this is zero sum game, every aspect of Wurm is zero sum game, but you do not notice it because you are hunting on an ancient server where maybe 20 people are playing.

ah yes because i've never played on nfi, or other populated servers, and have no friends that play on nfi that i can ask about certain things. odd scapegoat

sounds like paranoid personality disorder if you think everyone in wurm is your enemy and it's a zero sum game

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37 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

ah yes because i've never played on nfi, or other populated servers, and have no friends that play on nfi that i can ask about certain things. odd scapegoat

sounds like paranoid personality disorder if you think everyone in wurm is your enemy and it's a zero sum game


So you want to tell me that PvP in Wurm is not a zero-sum game? PvE has inherited all elements of PvP except possibility of attacking and robbing other players, all the rest of zero sum game mechanics are still on PvE servers.

 

Mining - if you mine tunnel under tile then another player can not do it under same tile because we have a 2D world,
Digging - if you dig a hole, another player has to look for the dirt somewhere else, and if he wants to settle there, he has a problem,
If you dig canal, the player driving the wagon must build a bridge to avoid the obstacle or fill the canal with dirt, which will result in your loss because you will not be able to swim there with ship.

 

Can you give me any example from Wurm which is not zero sum game? (I assume you understand what a zero sum game is)

 

That's not my way of thinking it's how game is designed, I'm not saying it's bad design, just that design shouldn't be concealed.

That there should be division in the profitability of certain activities so that newbies do something different than advanced players (for example hunt for different mobs, use different animals for transporting donkey/horse), then they won't get in the way and everyone will be happy. Unless this is what you need and you want to feel for a moment superiority over someone who started game a month ago and has no chance with you, then ok, whatever.

Edited by Darnok

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There's an adage that says, any argument that can't be solved in five minutes, can't be solved by arguing. That's because the issues are likely to be a matter of personal belief. The only way to resolve such questions is to bring in more data.

 

People with real, relatable experiences are attempting to engage, and bring in their own data, and they are being either ignored or having their words utterly misunderstood.

 

This is like talking with a crazy person.

 

  

10 minutes ago, Darnok said:


Can you give me any example from Wurm which is not zero sum game? (I assume you understand what a zero sum game is)

 

 

Okay, three examples chosen not at all at random.

Mining - if you mine out a tunnel, then that's one tile of rock that another player doesn't have to mine out. They can take advantage of your effort to get where they want to be.

Digging - if you dig a hole, then you've got some dirt that another player can use, and trade something with you for it. Both of you are happier after making the trade than you were before (otherwise you wouldn't have traded).

If you dig a canal, then you've made a permanent contribution to the navigability of your server that will benefit players in eternity. Similarly if you build a bridge.

Edited by Sheffie
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Darnok: There are no horses!

 

Brattygirl: Um, I found a horse

 

Darnok: No horses! It's a zero sum game!

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Quote

While the server is on, and I'm not playing -> everyone should be paused or on temp-ban so I can login and have equal chance to gain skill and benefit from gains; at which point it becomes a meta to do the optimal gain for skill/money for the spent time.

Wait.. this is not wallstreet.. and no crypto min/maxing candle or w/e scheme.. it's a casual mmo, so.. not at all zero sum, or even if it is.. it's perfectly fine?

-yes.

ok

 

If you think otherwise - feel free to do all the math and play by same rules other play and have played, and catch up with the most efficient way to achieve same skills and wealth.

Seems fair, right? you get here late, you have to spend the same time to catch up.

 

Even better, it's possible and doable, and people keep doing it, some have 50 FS for 5years, other get that in a day. Nothing wrong, no 0sum, it's time, effort, knowledge, ability, ..

 

Be a gamer - play the game; if you're bad at something - there's ca-help, and other players to help you learn, rest is you putting the time and effort into achieving your goal, especially in mmos there's nobody to hold your hand and get you the gains you want; lets not talk about runescape and buying friends... that's exception😁

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10 minutes ago, Darnok said:

So you want to tell me that PvP in Wurm is not a zero-sum game? PvE has inherited all elements of PvP except possibility of attacking and robbing other players, all the rest of zero sum game mechanics are still on PvE servers.

Ok, another thing you don't understand and prolly won't ever understand.

 

Any sustainable PvP is nothing less than zero sum, not even between opposed factions. Zero sum PvP regularly spells the end of PvP, usually accompagnied by ganking and zerging, and widespread abuse and cheat. Those players are much similar to your conduct here, and regularly destroy games, or are booted before they do. Sustainable PvP needs caring for a viable environment for all opposed parties and factions, unipolar dominance causes the inferior party to leave which is unpleasant for the "winner". Zero sum players, at the end of the day, kick their own butt.

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Nobody said that the wurm system is perfect.. it's far from it.. the only thing you don't seem to understand is that your suggestion doesn't help with anything to fix that system.. you have to come up with the actual issue first, and the fact that you can't find enough weak mobs on your mountain is really not a reason to change fighting mobs completely, it's more of a spawn/migration issue, which was dealt with at some point when creatures used to heavily migrate north.. would be nice to have even more advanced AI, especially have mobs not able to climb cliffs and steep hills.. I would back up such a suggestion 100%.

 

The fact that people keep killing weaker mobs is not really an issue for anyone that has travelled a bit outside the inhabited areas, and if there are a lot of players skilling in your regular hunting spot will make that spot feel empty no matter their skill level.. just find another place to hunt..

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18 hours ago, Finnn said:

You want to play the game solo and do some stuff completely alone, start from scratch - it takes not hours or days, this can take way longer .. it's a slow paced game, your dreams do not just happen to be true, it's a slow grind depending how high you're aiming. 

 

I play solo, but I buy and sell stuff, so it's not exactly start from scratch.

I believe that it should be a matter of choosing whether the player is trading with others or acquires EVERY resource himself and develops at his own pace, after all, this is a sandbox + open world, so at EVERY stage of server (one year after start of map) from a beginner's point of view player should have same conditions for development. Exception is that some areas would already be occupied by other players' deeds, but any other resource should appear/spawn in the same amount on the first day map starts and 5 years after start.

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there's no 'server stage', you progress or you do not, server changes if players do projects like turning a desert into steppe, creating new canal/tunnel somewhere on the map, etc.. 

 

- beginners play by the same game rules any other existing player plays by - correct; although... there's not beginner/adv/exp level.. or rank.. you're a 'peasant' or 'god' at some skill, and that takes time and effort, you can normally grind anything - anywhere... 

 

Quote

Exception is that some areas would already be occupied by other players' deeds, but any other resource should appear/spawn in the same amount on the first day map starts and 5 years after start.

- no... it's dynamic sandbox environment.. by turning that 'sand' into steppe - you or somebody else change what spawns in that area *NOW*, conditions change, YOU or the new player have the freedom to go and turn the steppe into desert again... which doesn't prevent the 1 or 20 people that turned it before to return and change it - Free land. Normally this is a choice that several people in the local area agree on.. the 1 or another type of 'biome' gives more to the people playing there; in the case of being new and randomly wanting to bonk a scorp with your new large maul or w/e well.. there must be a desert closer or further away to use... it's not ideal sometimes, be social, be nice, not all will happen the way you like it - just like life IRL.

Edited by Finnn
1 of many typos
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So the question seems to be, should the server be exactly the same one year after founding as it was one day one?

 

I think the answer to that  is pretty much as @Finnnsaid. Wurm is a sandbox, not an Etch-a-Sketch. You don't get to shake it and have everything reset. Not if you want players  to stick around

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On 8/8/2021 at 3:08 PM, Finnn said:

there's no 'server stage', you progress or you do not, server changes if players do projects like turning a desert into steppe, creating new canal/tunnel somewhere on the map, etc.. 

 

 

Sure, but how big changes are compared to original map also shows at what stage server is at.

Regarding spawn, unfortunately I do not have access to data, but I bet that today fewer horses are spawned on Cad in 100x100 tiles grassland area than right after start of map.

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There's no server stage.

Tomorrow whole map could be uncovered mountain, dirt, forest, desert, swamp, water…

 

If spawning x creature seems low and actually is low - can be tweaked, you can report such data in server bugs or suggest higher spawn rate for x creature type because...

Normally horses are for whatever reason... spawning near server borders, players must be stinking so much that they just rather drown than share same map with us... it's a known 'feature'. seems to be spreading to donkeys;

 

Finding massive amount of wild horses have never been an actual thing you could do... horses in the wild are pretty useless... and the bug mentioned above.. causes them to be more rare to find.

 

Report the 'feature', take a boat, lead 4 off the border to your home.. repeat.. best you can do right now.

 

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Holy crap, no.

 

No.

 

 

No.

Edited by Borstaskor
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I've got some great ideas too.

 

My, two scents - previously suggested by Gone420 and Elen - see below

Take note of the wind direction when you go hunting, because if you are upwind of a mob their aggro zone is 20% larger, whereas if you are downwind their aggro range is 20% less.  Remember also, that new players smell clean and fresh, like new grass, whereas the longer you play the game, the more sweated up and generally smelly you become and smaller domesticated animals will avoid you, whereas big tough mobs are attracted to you.  There you go.  Job's a good'un.

 

Smell a rat?  You're not the only one. 

Use the tracking skill more (because nobody uses it and you really SHOULD use skills that nobody uses btw)  at level 99 it unlocks the Sniffer achievement and you can smell the almost exact locations of unique mobs like Dragons if they are upwind of you.

 

Just kidding? 

Use the goat helm to climb steep mountains without stamina loss and round up all those mobs clinging to the sides of the mountains (has a 2.5% chance to instantly lose stamina and fall to your death).

 

;)  Happy Wurming! ;) 

 

 

See also:

 

 

Edited by Muse

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Different bird nests can spawn randomly on trees in same way as wild bee hives.

The player may receive a message or hear birds singing when approaching the nest.
Eggs can be pulled from nest, but then a bird spawns and attacks player.
There could be several species of birds (hawks, falcons, eagles, crows, owls).

Birds have around 10-30FS, but they have a blinding attack, this works just like obstructing vision when player is about to die, just in different color than red.

 

Player can catch bird using... fishing net. If catching is successful bird appears inside net, just like fish, if it fails net is destroyed.

 

A caught bird can be attached to a special leather glove, with which it can be sold.

When a player is traveling on foot, a bird can sit on his shoulder, while player is ridding on horse, bird can fly low over player.

Glove with bird can be placed in armor stand and then the bird appears on top, you have to feed it with meat so that it does not starve to death.

Birds should only live around 1-2 Wurm year.

 

A caught bird would have few functions:

- when you are in a dense forest, you can release bird (you activate glove or select option from right-click-menu) and for ~30 seconds camera is switching to view from birds eyes and you can control bird hovering above trees (turn left or right).

- second function is a blinding attack, attack works only when the player is not in combat and in PvE makes mobs literally blind, which for 1-2 turns of mob attack will have problem with locating player, attack itself does not activate combat mode and does not trigger mob, to attack player, so blindness can be used to slide past a strong mob or delay his attack when player wants to shoot a bow.
 

Different species of birds may have different additional features, for example:

- owls could see in dark but could not blind mobs.

- eagles can catch some more common fish when player is close to water.

- falcons make sounds if there is a snake nearby in grass or behind trees.

- parrots can repeat random words and when player is on a collision course with shallow water they will shout a warning.

 

EDIT - expanded

Falconer and The Beast

If player wears falconer glove with a bird during meditation, he should be able to play a mini-game for these few minutes, which would be a expansion of short flight over trees feature. That is, in meditation we have 2 minutes, not just 30 seconds of flight, the bird rises much higher than just the treetops so that player can see a much larger area, but still player can only steer right/left while flying.
 

Additionally, a bird flying high above the ground could see several (3-4) sources of sound (graphically they could look like pulsating colorless spheres).

These would be game-generated points that the player should track down in the correct order when meditation is over.

When tracking, not only would usual skill tracking tell you which way to first point, but also bird whose flight over trees would show source of sound (nearest point).

When the player finds first point and uses tracking on that tile, he gets a lot of skill gain for tracking and information where the next point is and a warning about beast nearby.

 

After reaching the last point seen during meditation and using tracking, the player also receives a big bonus to the tracking skill and the information that he is already very close to the beast.

At this point, a special mob is spawned nearby along with its tracks, which from now on can only be tracked by tracking, the bird's flight will no longer detect any signal, but it can help to spot the beast.

From now on, traveling with a vehicle or horse is not recommended, because noise can scare beast and player will gain nothing, the event will be a failure. But player can still lead horse in case he has to run away fast.

 

When tracking beast, player should take into account direction of wind, if it is blowing towards the beast, it will sense player and there may be two scenarios:

- if random beast is much weaker than the hunter (player), it will start to run away, even a few hundred tiles away as far as possible from the hunter (player), it may be noticed by another player and killed, then event will end in failure. Also chance of unique drop drops to value close to zero.

- if the hunter and the beast have similar strength, when beast detects player, gets a bonus to accuracy and dodges, enters stealth mode and follows the hunter, the hunter becomes the prey 🙂

The event can still be successful if player manages to kill the beast, but with beast buffs it won't be that easy. Ending combat and running away reduces chance of a unique drop.

 

The beast can be one strong animal, a werewolf, polar bear, rhino, mammoth, saber-toothed tiger, succubus etc.,

or a whole pack of for example arctic white wolves, hyenas, lions that attack in a group when they detect hunter-player or when player tracked them down and starts combat with one of them.

But in order for such a group not to be deadly for players not participating in the event, for each other player, pack will simply be a group of aggressive mobs that act like any other mob group and attack individually.

 

The reward for event will be a great skill gain for tracking (just tracking few points before beast spawn and beast itself will give you a lot of skill gain and will probably be more interesting than tracking pig in the forest).

For killing the beast, player will receive a unique drop, it can only drop to player who started event. As I wrote in the idea with the werewolf, these could be items that will allow you to create some additional items like capes, necklaces and maybe entire armor set.

There may be many special sets for each type of beast or just one set for the hunter.

 

Falconer and different skills

To catch a bird with the fishing net player needs a few levels of taming (5-10 should be enough), because as a falconer we will further develop taming in a more interesting way.

 

Range of all bird activities depends on level of tacking skill of player (range the bird can be sent to).

When player use blinding attack he get skill gain for taming.
When he uses flight over trees, skill gain is for tracking.

 

Depending on the species of bird, it can have additional functions that allow, for example:
- catch fish and give taming skill gain and a bit of fishing skill gain (effectiveness in catching fish depends on the level of fishing),
- catching/killing small animals like chickens, hares, young sheep etc. effectiveness depends on taming skill and gives taming skill gain,

- collect fruit from trees (ql of fruit depends on player forestry skill level) or drop we can get from forage,

- detect shallow water, detection range depends on tracking level and if player's ship draft level is too deep, bird will warn the player (while sailing by ship, player can send a bird and see from above what shallow water look like and even catch fish on the way)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Darnok
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On 8/6/2021 at 11:56 AM, Darnok said:

And that was the last suggestion, see you in game 🙂

 

PQRespv.png

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14 minutes ago, Blackbeard said:

  

 

 

PQRespv.png

 

Not really, I didn't write any more suggestions that day 🙂

 

 

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or just add a slightly further removed camera position for when you press V a third time.

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13 hours ago, Sheffie said:

or just add a slightly further removed camera position for when you press V a third time.

 

Using same mindset you can fix AH in such a way that you remove horses and instead character can run at 25 km/h.

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