Darnok

Darnok's travel and exploration suggestions

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Posted (edited)

Original post

Each player on the map should see dots that correspond to deeds created by other players. If I reach such a dot and stand on the perimeter of a given deed, its name also appears on my map.

Editing + cartography

First, the materials from which the player can create a map, clay tablet, leather, papyrus, paper, cloth, wood, stone.
Clay tablets and leather maps would, for obvious reasons, be used first.
Maps could also serve as decorations, hanging a clay map (relief) or tapestry of the map on wall would be nice. In addition, at higher levels, the player could be able to create a map in wood, for example, an entire oak fallen tree would be carved in the form of a map table that we saw in Game of Thrones. Likewise with a stone.

 

Maps types. General map (the one we see in the game now), biomes map, height map. When creating a map, a cartographer would choose its type. Some types of maps would require appropriate material, e.g. a map of biomes could be drawn only on papyrus and paper.


Early in the game, a player would get skill gain for the cartography skill for exploring a map square, he could do that by traveling to unexplored square and using the compass there.

After revealing a few squares, the player could create a map that would contain as many as the map fragment discovered by him. The whole map is divided into squares, so, for example, discovering/exploring 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 squares next to each other would allow you to draw a small map. The higher the cartography skill, the larger the maps we could draw, so players who are afraid of too early detection and placement on the maps would not have to do it. Map of entire island would be available at a point in the game where their deeds are already fairly well developed.

 

Having a fragment of the map created by himself, compass and a sextant, the player could use them to further develop the cartography skill. Additionally, he could make structures such as stone signs telling how far they are from the nearest starting town.

On the map in the game, he would also be able to determine his location, but the accuracy would depend on the level of cartographic skills, e.g.
1-20 - the map highlights 5x5 squares on the map in the game and the player is somewhere in that area
20-40 - 4x4 map squares are highlighted

40-50 - 3x3

50-60 - 2x2 square

60+ - 1 square highlighted, he would also see the square where he has the deed, as well as the one where his pet is, the animals he has chosen to care for, his ship, wagon or cart.

 

With skill over 60, the player would start to see deeds as dots on the map around him, the ones I wrote about in the original idea. And the deeds that the player visited could be added to his in game map. As for drawing deeds into the general map and selling it to other players, I think it would be a good idea for PvE servers, but if you don't like it that much, then whatever.

 

Now creating maps as items. Depending on the skill level, as I wrote, the higher the level, the more squares from the map the player can transfer to paper, parypus or leather map. It would also be more difficult to create larger maps, but for drawing maps, the character would also receive skill gain, the larger map he made more skill gain.

Depending on the skill level, the player can also unlock the map type. A general map with the outline of the lands (like in the game) should be the basic one, which can be drawn after revealing a few squares of the map. Later, the player would unlock the height map, so that in the medium game stage players interested in designing highways would have an insight into what and where to build. Finally, the most advanced cartographers could map biomes, where forests would even contain information about what kind of trees grow there.

 

I would also propose to change the crossing maps to such that the ship's captain would have to have maps of the island he is leaving from and a map of the island he is planning to sail to OR he would have to have a cartographic skill at the appropriate level to set the course on his own without maps. Something like body control required for riding a specific animal except that the game would not require you to train your cartography skill, because you could simply buy two maps and swim without this skill.

 

 

Edited by Pandalet
Moderation edit

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You can already do this yourself, automated map making has no place in wurm

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OP's idea seems more in line with the other suggestions regarding cartography and player map making. Which would be a cool skill and asked for about 100 separate times by now. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, elentari said:

OP's idea seems more in line with the other suggestions regarding cartography and player map making. Which would be a cool skill and asked for about 100 separate times by now. 

 

If there was a skill responsible for cartography, this function could be slightly expanded. For example, a player would not see dots/deeds on the entire map at once, only within a certain range depending on the skill level. But when I visited a deed, I don't see any reason why the dot and name of that deed should not be displayed on the map in the game, it is normal behavior in every game.

 

With a higher level of the cartography skill, you could also draw a map with those deeds that you visited and sell to players who don't want to drive all over the map. There could also be a function of finding the player's location, if he had a suitable device for this, e.g. a sextant, compass and a paper map, he would see the highlighted square or circle on the map in the game where he is currently. Better ql of items and higher skill level more precise location.

Edited by Darnok

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If i am not mistaken this exact idea has been mentioned in here before. I was against it then because it destroys the reason to even go out and explore. 

 

Even if it would be implemented it would distract from the real area. As for older servers the in-game maps do not even show the correct biome in a few places anymore.

Seems like something not worth the effort as it would only add frustration because of the lack of knowledge. While looking at the community map

s is 'mostly' accurate with the only point you need to do is figure out where the hell you are.

 

11 minutes ago, Darnok said:

With a higher level of the cartography skill, you could also draw a map with those deeds that you visited and sell to players who don't want to drive all over the map.

There are deeds that prefer not to be marked, i recall someone that if you got his deed listed on the community map he would make your life a hell for it. I could see this falling horrendously bad with those people too.

 

13 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I don't see any reason why the dot and name of that deed should not be displayed on the map in the game, it is normal behavior in every game.

The most interesting places tend to be in the wild or deeds that actually have a legacy to them. That is assuming it isn't barred off. So believe me when i say this would add very little other then maybe a local convince once every so often. On top of that as i stated before being told there is a deed somewhere can be distracting. Thus pushing you away from the wild.

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Some players don’t want their deed location to be known. If something like this was implemented it would have to give the player the choice of whether or not to show up on the map. Similar to how you have the choice to be on the highway system or not. 

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Make the suggestion involve a new skill (cartography) and private maps and you might get my +1

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

Some players don’t want their deed location to be known. If something like this was implemented it would have to give the player the choice of whether or not to show up on the map. Similar to how you have the choice to be on the highway system or not. 

 

You don't understand what I'm writing about, if I was at your deed's fence, why should the game not show your deed to me on the map? Forcing me to remember where every deed is, or to take notes outside of the game, makes no sense. If someone found you, you are no longer hidden.

 

Alternatively, there may be an option when creating a deed "hidden", but for example for an additional fee + 1s to the one-time cost of creating a deed, then you won't be visible as a nameless dot and other player won't be able to draw your deed on the paper map, but once any one find your deed should appear on his map in the game anyway.

Edited by Darnok
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Posted (edited)

I assume that the annotations would be added to your own map only. 

I can see why people don't want their deeds marked on community maps and I think that's reasonable.

 

The bigger problem, I think, with marking a spot on the map — even if it's only your own copy — is that the position of that spot lets you know exactly where you are. This is something that Wurm does not currently do, and it makes a huge change to the exploration mechanics. Essentially, you're no longer lost if you can find a deed, any deed. The only way around this would be for the spot's position to be randomly inaccurate, depending on your cartography skill.

 

As it stands right now, you can find your location if you discover a deed and you're willing to visit the community map and that village is marked. Oh, and another thing. As it stands right now, there's nothing to stop you adding annotations to your own copy of the map, in game, showing any deeds you discover or any other landmark you think is noteworthy. I think that's about right.

Edited by Sheffie
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

I assume that the annotations would be added to your own map only. 

I can see why people don't want their deeds marked on community maps and I think that's reasonable.

 

The bigger problem, I think, with marking a spot on the map — even if it's only your own copy — is that the appearance of that spot lets you know exactly where you are. This is something that Wurm does not currently do, and it makes a huge change to the exploration mechanics. Essentially, you're no longer lost if you can find a deed, any deed.


There should be tools in the game that allow you to more precisely determine your position, sailing without such tools would be a kamikaze mission in real world, so I don't see a problem here. There may be additional conditions for adding a location and name to my private map e.g. having a clean paper map, sextant and compass.

Additionally, traveling between maps may require the captain of the ship to also have tools and maps of both islands, the one he starts his journey from and the one he is headed to, so here would be the market and the greater role of mailboxes for players to exchange maps. If a new server is created, old players would have the option to find a treasure on the beach or finding floating barrel on the sea with a map of the new undiscovered land or purchasing a map of a new island from the player who started the game there via mailbox.

Edited by Darnok

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12 hours ago, Sheffie said:

I can see why people don't want their deeds marked on community maps and I think that's reasonable.

 

Why?

 

I get why people wouldn't want their character name publicly listed with their location, but what difference does it make if it's just the name of the deed? I honestly truly don't understand why people are so prickly about this.

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I like this idea as long as it's connected with a cartography/navigation skill set as an actual activity, and not just an automatic thing. This would encourage exploration as people would want to get better at navigation and it would be satisfying to fill in their personal maps. I bet some people would be motivated to go out and explore every corner of every server, just to complete their maps :D

 

Drogos made an interesting suggestion for a new skill that could contribute to this:

 

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No.

 

If you haven't visited a place, why should just automatically know exactly where it is?  

 

I am all for a mapping skill, and a mapping process.  But before satellites the making of maps involved actually surveying the area to be mapped.  I am one of the Wurm explorers, and the only real reward that we derive from exploration is a sense of discovery.  It's bad enough that the game itself has no system to reward exploration.  A Wurm automap would be just terrible. 

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7 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

No.

 

If you haven't visited a place, why should just automatically know exactly where it is?  

 

I am all for a mapping skill, and a mapping process.  But before satellites the making of maps involved actually surveying the area to be mapped.  I am one of the Wurm explorers, and the only real reward that we derive from exploration is a sense of discovery.  It's bad enough that the game itself has no system to reward exploration.  A Wurm automap would be just terrible. 

 

Some people don't like exploration and sit on their deed so a map would be useful for them.
For everyone else who sometimes goes to sleep, if someone puts a deed near them, it would be good for them to find out about it as soon as possible, preferably right after logging in and checking the map.

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35 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

  I am one of the Wurm explorers, and the only real reward that we derive from exploration is a sense of discovery.  It's bad enough that the game itself has no system to reward exploration. 

 

Use sextant (add item in game), use compass, use papyrus making (give that skill a purpose), use a pen, use spyglass. 

 

Cartography as a skill should even have activated perks at 20 -30 - 50- 70 - 90 - 100. 

 

Skill 20: Unlock perk : Find starter town. Shows your location on map, and a line towards the starter town. Cooldown 1 hour. 

Skill 30 : Unlock perk : Guide to deed. Wherever you are on the map, you'll get a ping of your current location and your deed location. Cooldown 1 hour. 

 2nd perk : Junior navigator designate 2 waypoints on the map and your character will automatically travel towards them, step by step.

Skill 50 : Unlock perk: Find deed (that has already been marked). Pings a deed on the map you've already encountered as well as your current location. Cooldown 1 hour. 

2nd perk Layman navigator designate 3 waypoints on the map and your character will automatically travel towards them, step by step.

Skill 70: Unlock perk: Find monuments  (mission buildings). You type in the name of said monument and it pings on the map. CD 1 hour. 

3rd perk Expert navigator designate 4 waypoints on the map and your character will automatically travel towards them, step by step.

Skill 90: Unlock perk: Master navigator  - designate 5 waypoints on the map and your character will automatically travel towards them, step by step. Cd 24 hours. Ex : travel by boat, set waypoints. 

Skill 100 - Unlock perk: to be suggested? Something cool anyway. 

Unlock perk: Fantastic navigator  - designate 10 waypoints on the map and your character will automatically travel towards them, step by step. Cd 24 hours. 

 

Items used : Spyglass on tile to begin surveying the land. (determines max range in tiles)

Empty map created by using papyrus or paper on each other. 

Pen.

Sextant (determines elevation correctly. Poor ql sextant will leave your map with a "flat appearance" so mountains and hills might not display correctly)

 

Skillgain is initially earned by using a spyglass on sextant to study the tile you're currently on.  Afterwards you mark your empty map with a reed pen. Spyglass ql is irrelevant. Should be a crafted item in any case. 

Initial surveying range is 20 tiles. Surveying lasts equal to the tile range you want to survey (15 tile survey = 15 sec timer). Mark your map with your current location. Each skill point adds 2 tiles to your max survey range, for a maximum of 180 tiles at 100 skill. Chance on failure : the map gets damaged. Can be improved with papyrus making. 

 

Variable skillgain vs difficulty : You can choose the no. of tiles to survey which adds or lowers the difficulty of the action. Also influences the timer of surveying. 

Ex: You have cartography skill of 20, which means you have an effective surveying range of 40 tiles. You can choose to "attempt to survey 60 tiles" but it has a higher chance of failure. You can also choose to survey for 20 tiles, for less skillgain, but faster timer and increased chance of getting skillgain. 

 

Just some thoughts. 

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6 hours ago, Vorticella said:

Why?

 

I get why people wouldn't want their character name publicly listed with their location, but what difference does it make if it's just the name of the deed? I honestly truly don't understand why people are so prickly about this.

 

Because there are some players that swarm deeds as soon as they drop. Let's say you are in the hospital and unable to play due to an illness and you don't have the time to throw upkeep in. Deed drops, players swarm to take anything and everything that isn't nailed down. Some even build a house in the area to prevent people from planting a new deed. You now come back after some very close calls and find that your fence was broke into and all your animals are gone. Including your first horse with that rare set of gear you worked so hard to craft. Then that outdoor smithy you made so you can look at the wild life, while making those rare horse shoes is in shambles. Someone damaged the forge enough to load it into a wagon, and looted your large anvil and everything else they could get their hands on. Then you go to place down a new deed but you can't, because there is a nameless house in the middle of your deed. So now you are stuck with your home (providing it didn't decay), your carts and whatever is in your inventory. This is why some players don't want their deeds location known. 

 

19 hours ago, Darnok said:

You don't understand what I'm writing about, if I was at your deed's fence, why should the game not show your deed to me on the map? Forcing me to remember where every deed is, or to take notes outside of the game, makes no sense. If someone found you, you are no longer hidden.

 

Alternatively, there may be an option when creating a deed "hidden", but for example for an additional fee + 1s to the one-time cost of creating a deed, then you won't be visible as a nameless dot and other player won't be able to draw your deed on the paper map, but once any one find your deed should appear on his map in the game anyway.

In regards to this idea. If you find the deed I see no reason why it shouldn't pop up on your map. You know where it is, so it's not something you should keep hidden. But I don't think everyone should know where every deed is. If every deed appears on your map with a dot, it would not be hard to abuse the system. If you take pictures of the map, and then take an updated photo when a deed is added or removed, you can clearly see where the dot appears/disappears. Which would make the system quite abuseable. But if it is just something that can be added to the map when you find it then that is something I would be ok with. 

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25 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

Because there are some players that swarm deeds as soon as they drop. Let's say you are in the hospital and unable to play due to an illness and you don't have the time to throw upkeep in. Deed drops, players swarm to take anything and everything that isn't nailed down. Some even build a house in the area to prevent people from planting a new deed. You now come back after some very close calls and find that your fence was broke into and all your animals are gone. Including your first horse with that rare set of gear you worked so hard to craft. Then that outdoor smithy you made so you can look at the wild life, while making those rare horse shoes is in shambles. Someone damaged the forge enough to load it into a wagon, and looted your large anvil and everything else they could get their hands on. Then you go to place down a new deed but you can't, because there is a nameless house in the middle of your deed. So now you are stuck with your home (providing it didn't decay), your carts and whatever is in your inventory. This is why some players don't want their deeds location known. 

The cynical side of me thinks this is *exactly* why some players want every deed on the map... so if/when it falls they can race over and raid it. From what I have seen, fallen deeds on the map are destroyed and have random 1 tile buildings on them within hours. Unmapped deeds can go a few days which allows time for friends and allies to help collect and preserve some of the animals and equipment.

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2 minutes ago, SirMuttley said:

The cynical side of me thinks this is *exactly* why some players want every deed on the map...

I would say you are probably correct on that one.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, brattygirl said:

Because there are some players that swarm deeds as soon as they drop.

 

So why not suggest getting rid of the announcements that call out disbanded deeds? Maybe this opt-in system slows looters down a little, but in the meantime everyone else is inconvenienced every time they try to use the maps to find their way around, and they have to struggle with half the information being missing or wrong.

 

3 hours ago, SirMuttley said:

The cynical side of me thinks this is *exactly* why some players want every deed on the map

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I personally want accurate maps because I'm tired of trying to find my way around using maps that don't match the in-game world. I think it's weird that everyone is just accepting the current situation where the maps are only occasionally useful. Even weirder is that this system inconveniences current players in order to protect the stuff owned by people who have stopped playing. How does that make sense?

Edited by Vorticella

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5 hours ago, brattygirl said:

 

Because there are some players that swarm deeds as soon as they drop. Let's say you are in the hospital and unable to play due to an illness and you don't have the time to throw upkeep in. Deed drops, players swarm to take anything and everything that isn't nailed down. Some even build a house in the area to prevent people from planting a new deed. You now come back after some very close calls and find that your fence was broke into and all your animals are gone. Including your first horse with that rare set of gear you worked so hard to craft. Then that outdoor smithy you made so you can look at the wild life, while making those rare horse shoes is in shambles. Someone damaged the forge enough to load it into a wagon, and looted your large anvil and everything else they could get their hands on. Then you go to place down a new deed but you can't, because there is a nameless house in the middle of your deed. So now you are stuck with your home (providing it didn't decay), your carts and whatever is in your inventory. This is why some players don't want their deeds location known. 

 

In regards to this idea. If you find the deed I see no reason why it shouldn't pop up on your map. You know where it is, so it's not something you should keep hidden. But I don't think everyone should know where every deed is. If every deed appears on your map with a dot, it would not be hard to abuse the system. If you take pictures of the map, and then take an updated photo when a deed is added or removed, you can clearly see where the dot appears/disappears. Which would make the system quite abuseable. But if it is just something that can be added to the map when you find it then that is something I would be ok with. 

 

Do you know that if you join any group, people have their guild internal map? The fact that they have to do this outside of the game does not make sense, because every more advanced group has your deed on their map, whether you like it or not.

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Yet again another crap suggestion from the OP. Go find a game you actually like and bother them with your nonsense.

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2 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Do you know that if you join any group, people have their guild internal map? The fact that they have to do this outside of the game does not make sense, because every more advanced group has your deed on their map, whether you like it or not.

If you are referring to the Internal Map with alliance annotations then yes, I know about this. But an alliance map is just going to show you the deeds your alliance members have marked off. And with the size of the marker on the in game map, I do not see any alliance marking off each individual deed. The map would become unreadable. Yes there is ways around this map system. You are never truly hidden. When someone deeds you can just locate soul to get the general direction. Someone can walk by and tell others where your deed is. There is a million ways around this. But the point is they have to really put in some effort to figure this out. Another thing is having a map that just shows you where each deed is kind of takes away the fun of exploration. And there is already a system on the forums that allows players the chance to post their deed location on a map.

 

1 hour ago, Vorticella said:

So why not suggest getting rid of the announcements that call out disbanded deeds? Maybe this opt-in system slows looters down a little, but in the meantime everyone else is inconvenienced every time they try to use the maps to find their way around, and they have to struggle with half the information being missing or wrong.

Getting rid of the announcement is a possibility. Like what they did with the uniques. But while this would be good, it would also mean your friends won't know your deed has been disbanded. So they won't be able to come and help secure things for you. Between the in game map, the highway system and the maps on the forums. I have never had any difficulty navigating wurm. And I do a lot of sailing, exploration to deliver goods and services. 

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1 hour ago, Vorticella said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I personally want accurate maps because I'm tired of trying to find my way around using maps that don't match the in-game world.

 

You are doing it wrong anyway. Why is so many people focusing on deeds to find their location? Look at your surroundings, look at the coastlines, mountains, deserts, peat, moss etc. I feel very old when saying this, but it seems this is the gps-generation problem. Those who get lost in their home city, because they only follow what machine tells them and never look around. Some end up in a lake and only realize it when the car sinks...

 

When you start moving you know where you are*, so pay attention where you are going. It is especially easy in Wurm, where world is made of squares. You have your compass there, even if you don't carry one. As long as you know where you were and which direction you were facing, you can always backtrack and/or estimate your location. If you just bother to notice what you are doing.

 

*You don't get randomly tossed to places unless you use Path of Insanity random teleport (plenty of fun actually that one). You spawned in certain place and after that, you moved yourself. So where ever you end up you have all the means to know your location already.

 

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Posted (edited)

I just re-read the OP and my polite no has just become a hell no.

 

The proposal is that every deed is marked on every player's map. I didn't realize that. I thought we were discussing some kind of personal exploration feature. This is just horrible.

 

People play Wurm to get away from it all. In whatever form, for whatever reason, Wurm is an escape.

Now not everyone wants to be a hermit, but some do, and they pay good money to do so, but you want to make that impossible — and you've provided no justification for it.

Edited by Sheffie
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Posted (edited)
On 7/6/2021 at 7:15 PM, Darnok said:

Some people don't like exploration and sit on their deed so a map would be useful for them.

 

How?  If a player prefers to sit on their deed then an automap would in fact be quite useless to them.  Given that they don't even need a map, why implement something that ruins the game for those who do explore?  There are certainly mapping improvements that could be made that would enhance exploration and navigation.  This isn't one of them.

 

On 7/6/2021 at 7:15 PM, Darnok said:

For everyone else who sometimes goes to sleep, if someone puts a deed near them, it would be good for them to find out about it as soon as possible, preferably right after logging in and checking the map.

 

Or possibly look out a window.

 

It really seems like you want a game that plays for you.  If so, this isn't that game.

 

 

On 7/6/2021 at 10:25 PM, brattygirl said:

In regards to this idea. If you find the deed I see no reason why it shouldn't pop up on your map

 

Possibly you were lost when you stumbled across a deed - why should finding a deed suddenly mean you are unlost and know exactly where you are located on a map.  Using a map is a genuine skill.  I would love an in-Wurm analogue of that, and I have a post around here somewhere detailing how I imagine it could could work, but I certainly don't want any in-game mechanism puts a pin in your exact map location for you.  Elentari's post above likewise gives some good mechanisms to enhance mapping;

 

 

EDT:  Sorry, the above is unavailable apparently due to admin action of moving and merging threads without checking what (in the fora) links to them or setting up some kind of redirect (this it what it appears to be.  I can't be certain because I can not longer tell what what I had linked).

Edited by TheTrickster
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