Trait Speed Tests

[SoG 21]

I have been testing speeds with the new and old traits. The tests are far from complete as I do not have all the animals to do it yet, but as I get them I will update the post. I am only using my results as others might have different quality or have runes on wagons as mine. So I am keeping it as strictly my results. All tests are done with zero gear on the animal. So far my results are;

 

As a rider: The old trait system 5 Speed horses can reach up to 28.08km/h. The new 4 Speed horses can reach up to 28.08 km/h The new 3 Speed horses (without the water trait) can reach up to 28.08km/h. The new 3 Speed horses (with the water trait) can reach up to 25.93km/h. The 3 Speed mules (with the water trait) can reach up to 20.89km/h.

I have been asked what is the water trait and why the difference. The accustomed to water trait does not actually add speed that I have seen with regular horses. I have seen it keep your speed from slowing down in shallow water. 

 

As a hauler: My empty wagon is 73ql with a 5% speed rune. The old trait system a full team of 5s bison can reach up to 18.01kmh. The old trait system a full team of 5 Speed horses can reach up to 14.40km/h. A team of hell horses with zero traits can reach up to 15.84km/h. The new trait system a team of 4 Speed horses can reach up to 11.54km/h.

 

Once I have draft animals and other animals to test, I will post those results. I hope this is a help.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by SoG
Changed the Accustomed to Water trait info.

[Fearil 200]

10 minutes ago, SoG said:

The new 3 Speed horses (without the water trait) can reach up to 28.08km/h. The new 3 Speed horses (with the water trait) can reach up to 25.93km/h.

 

Is this accurate or a typo. Seems suspect or bugged if not. Thanks for sharing the info!

[SoG 21]

14 minutes ago, Fearil said:

 

Is this accurate or a typo. Seems suspect or bugged if not. Thanks for sharing the info!

 

Yes it is accurate according to my tests. If you read further in the post it explains why and what the water trait actually is. Please test for your self.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by SoG

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

1 hour ago, SoG said:

I have been asked what is the water trait and why the difference. The accustomed to water trait does not actually add speed. It keeps your speed from slowing down as much in shallow water. 

what? shallow water doesn't slow you down and it's a massive speed boost it just sucks, it'd take my hellie from 44km/h (normal land speed) to 49km/h on chaos when going across sunken dirt bridges

[SoG 21]

12 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

what? shallow water doesn't slow you down and it's a massive speed boost it just sucks, it'd take my hellie from 44km/h (normal land speed) to 49km/h on chaos when going across sunken dirt bridges

 

My apologies for my misunderstanding of the trait. However in typical situations (on land), it is ineffectual. In the shallow waters we have, and on horses that are not hell horses, I have not noticed the increase. Again my apologies.

[Yserin 171]

1 hour ago, Fearil said:

 

Is this accurate or a typo. Seems suspect or bugged if not. Thanks for sharing the info!

yes this is accurate. if you have the water trait and 2 normal speed traits you have a 2 speed animal. Draft has a similar issue. 3 draft traits no easy on the gear is faster then 3 draft traits when one is easy on the gear. both the water trait and easy on the gear trait is super common to roll on the offspring.

 

it would be different if shallow water roads were common inland. but if you are not on water often the trait is useless. I kinda hoped rain would effect it but it doesnt the few times I tried to clock it in rainy weather.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Yserin

[CistaCista 253]

Question: what about age of the animals you used? As far as I remember, "Aged" is the fastest age (for riding horses).

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by CistaCista

[Minnie 178]

9 hours ago, CistaCista said:

Question: what about age of the animals you used? As far as I remember, "Aged" is the fastest age (for riding horses).

 

The key would be that the two horses whose speeds you are comparing are of the same age, whatever it may be.  Also you should be carrying the same amount of weight. 

 

Also thanks for taking on this task.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Minnie

[SoG 21]

13 hours ago, CistaCista said:

Question: what about age of the animals you used? As far as I remember, "Aged" is the fastest age (for riding horses).

 

 

 

The ages are varied as what is available to me at the time of the test.

[Borstaskor 503]

I'll add some draft info from my testing to this then:
 

• The old draft hell horses I used (3 speeds molten) were able to hit around 35 km/h with a "basic" set up (basic set up being 90ql90w shoes and speed rune on the cart) pre AH changes.
  With the new 4draft moltens (effectively 3-draft due to gear trait being useless), I hit around 37 km/h with the same set up post AH changes. I know that @gnomegatesalso reports that hellies with the 3 relevant draft traits are faster than hellies with the old 3 relevant speed traits for drafting. Max draft animals makes carts faster now than they were pre update. Carts/wagons are not nerfed in terms of speed. This is before you even add the rare draft trait.
• There are some rumors going around about a certain interpretation of something they said in the patch notes (quote: "Having all draft traits will give a speed bonus instead of speed traits when a creature is hitched."). I did some testing and came to the conclusion that having all 4 draft traits does not make it better than having the 3 relevant ones. Gear draft trait is utterly useless for drafting purposes as gear on hitched animals doesn't even take damage to begin with.
  • Tests were done using hell horses, as they keep their traits up at all times.
  • Testing method: I juggled around my horseshoes (I got some rare/supreme casted shoes as well as a bunch of non rares) until I got to the point where changing 1 woa power brought me up/down 1 quint (=0.72 km/h speed increase/decrease). Then I tested by using a 3 draft hellie (with the three relevant traits) and compared it to a 4draft hellie. Using either made the 1 woa power still bring me up/down 1 quint.
• The quote about mules on the AH update patch notes (quote: "Mules are also as good as draft creatures as horses.") is incorrect. Mules are faster than horses and therefore are the best draft animals for anyone who don't want to deal with using hell horses. Mules are also about as fast as bison are for wagons, so if you ever wished you could put shoes on bison.. well, now you can. I'll have some simple numbers below if anyone is curious.

Draft animals comparison:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Borstaskor

[CistaCista 253]

5 hours ago, Borstaskor said:

a lot of info

 

Thanks for that!

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by CistaCista

[Yserin 171]

18 hours ago, Borstaskor said:

I'll add some draft info from my testing to this then:
 

• The old draft hell horses I used (3 speeds molten) were able to hit around 35 km/h with a "basic" set up (basic set up being 90ql90w shoes and speed rune on the cart) pre AH changes.
  With the new 4draft moltens (effectively 3-draft due to gear trait being useless), I hit around 37 km/h with the same set up post AH changes. I know that @gnomegatesalso reports that hellies with the 3 relevant draft traits are faster than hellies with the old 3 relevant speed traits for drafting. Max draft animals makes carts faster now than they were pre update. Carts/wagons are not nerfed in terms of speed. This is before you even add the rare draft trait.
• There are some rumors going around about a certain interpretation of something they said in the patch notes (quote: "Having all draft traits will give a speed bonus instead of speed traits when a creature is hitched."). I did some testing and came to the conclusion that having all 4 draft traits does not make it better than having the 3 relevant ones. Gear draft trait is utterly useless for drafting purposes as gear on hitched animals doesn't even take damage to begin with.
  • Tests were done using hell horses, as they keep their traits up at all times.
  • Testing method: I juggled around my horseshoes (I got some rare/supreme casted shoes as well as a bunch of non rares) until I got to the point where changing 1 woa power brought me up/down 1 quint (=0.72 km/h speed increase/decrease). Then I tested by using a 3 draft hellie (with the three relevant traits) and compared it to a 4draft hellie. Using either made the 1 woa power still bring me up/down 1 quint.
• The quote about mules on the AH update patch notes (quote: "Mules are also as good as draft creatures as horses.") is incorrect. Mules are faster than horses and therefore are the best draft animals for anyone who don't want to deal with using hell horses. Mules are also about as fast as bison are for wagons, so if you ever wished you could put shoes on bison.. well, now you can. I'll have some simple numbers below if anyone is curious.

Draft animals comparison:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

thanks!

 

was this test done with full or empty cart/wagons ( or both)? if you have time can you run this test with full or mostly full carts and wagons if you havent. thats where my real gripe has been with everything not involving the breeding portion of things.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Yserin

[Borstaskor 503]

3 hours ago, Yserin said:

thanks!

 

was this test done with full or empty cart/wagons ( or both)? if you have time can you run this test with full or mostly full carts and wagons if you havent. thats where my real gripe has been with everything not involving the breeding portion of things.

 

Last time I did some quick testing, I came to the conclusion that with a few draft traits and a decent ql cart, you won't get slowed down no matter how much stuff you got in the cart.

Wagon, however, might be a different story. I'll do some quick testing later on when I get home from work.

[Borstaskor 503]

Just tested four molten draft hellies on a wagon.

Wagon QL: 90
With empty wagon: 35.3 km/h

With 12 crates full of dirt: 33.8 km/h
Loss: 2 quint (~1.5 km/h)

 

With 12 crates full of logs: 30.2 km/h
Loss: 7 quint (~5.1 km/h)

I don't think shoes and other equipment matters since, as far as I'm concerned, the ql of the wagon and the traits are what's supposed to affect how much it doesn't get slowed down.

Picture of the traits used as well as the dirt cargo:

 

 

Conclusion: I don't see myself having any issues using the wagon to move most anything, at least up until probably 60,000 kg. Maybe more later on when I get my wagon imped higher or I get a rare trait or two.


PS. WTS up to nine seven 4-draft mules on NFI

Edited August 24, 2021 by Borstaskor

[Chubby 5]

Fantastic work so far with what the Op, and most of us, had available at the time.

 

What I would like to see is more draft testing. How do bulls fit in now, if at all? How does draft vs speed work on grades, especially under load conditions?

 

I'm the alliance farmer. I actually farm on 4 deeds and live on a fifth, and might farming on 2 more deeds soon once surfacing work is done. As such, not only am I pretty much tied to my wagon all day, but I spend probably a good 60-70% going either up or down 15-20 slope grades. Now wemp, veggies and cotton are not close the heaviest things you can put in a wagon, but weight is weight. I don't particularly need speed. In fact I don't really want speed. yea, strange but not really. I drop my stuff in piles while im farming , then use the wagon when I'm done to pick it up. Many items, when it's not a crate can often be hard to spot, as such a fast wagon is not really desirable. I want to go faster ten I walk, but I dont need a 35km wagon. 15-20 is fine.

 

What I do need is something that can hold that speed when going up hills with a fairly decent load. I'm curious how well draft traits play into that and which animals are best for pulling up hill. Not just the fastest, but the ones that come closest to maintaining it's flat speed (and yes, I do realize they will all lose speed, but I'm betting some, with proper draft traits, will have less loss then others).

 

I don't even know if draft traits have such an effect, but I would assume they would to some extent seeing how they made the move to add weight as variable to begin with. weight really doesn't matter too much until you pull a hill. That's where weight really matters.

 

My guess is, once you start pulling weight on hills, bison will fall off quickly and mules and bulls will come ahead. Bulls are slow, but they are very very strong animals. I would guess they would be the ones with the least amount of loss, even though there overall speed is probably lower then the rest, especially on flats, with mules probably still being overall faster in general, but having more loss on the hill. Like the bison vs mule, on uphill grades, bull or mules depends on whether you want to invest in getting top quality mules, and shoes to overcome the gap.

 

But all that's just a guess. I would be interested in testes of drafts traits effects on loads uphill on various animals, and not just who's fastest, but who has the least loss of speed.

 

Also if any effects of mixed speed and draft on riding animals help or hurt once you start adding weight like items carried, armor and weapons and such. Would seem to me that, if you travel light a pure speed horse would be beneficial, but if you travel heavy, like while hunting, you might want a more trait horse to handle the weight. lower overall vs a pure speed, but it can handle the extra weight better to maintain that speed as you take on more weight and go over hills.

[CistaCista 253]

 

1 hour ago, Chubby said:

if any effects of mixed speed and draft on riding animals

 

Mixed speed and draft can't really be made anymore. In one in a thousand cases, a speed trait gets mixed in with the draft horses maybe. I never saw that a foal had 2 traits combined with 3 of the other.

[Borstaskor 503]

The only trait that affects slope is a specific rare draft trait. The best way to realistically go as fast as possible up slopes is to go as fast as possible, period.

 

Animal choice doesn't affect this.

 

Ql of wagon affects how much you don't get slowed down by weight.

 

I hit 35kmh on my wagon, but my set up is not necessarily realistic for most people. You can easily hit around 19kmh with just full draft traited bison/mules. More if you pick mules and toss shoes on them.

 

16 hours ago, Chubby said:

 

 

16 hours ago, Chubby said:

Also if any effects of mixed speed and draft on riding animals help or hurt once you start adding weight like items carried, armor and weapons and such. Would seem to me that, if you travel light a pure speed horse would be beneficial, but if you travel heavy, like while hunting, you might want a more trait horse to handle the weight. lower overall vs a pure speed, but it can handle the extra weight better to maintain that speed as you take on more weight and go over hills.

 

This sounds like the old system. No traits increases weight capacity for horseback riding anymore.

[Chubby 5]

So you haven't tested anything? Thanks   3 draft traits specifically mention mounted weight limit increases. 1 negative trait that reduces mounted weight limited   I have tested a bit. not enough to full results but enough to find out if draft traits matter when mounted and yes, they very much do, and it's very much associated with weight, as I tested naked and loaded to max with dirt (about 13 for me at this point naked) Since weight matters, how speed you lose on hill when pulling or carrying that weight matter, which I also found it does matter.   To what degree it all mattered I don't have enough animals to determine exactly, but it definitely matters. That is what needs to be tested.   Speed traits, how fast it can go. Draft traits, how much weight it can carry or pull (which indirectly effects speed, cause the more weight you put on it the stressed it is and so the slower it's it's going to move).   So an animal that can handle a lot of weight is going to do better on a hill then an animal that can't handle any weight. And yes, I have tested enough to confirm that this is true, but again, i dont have enough variety to test by how much, which is what I'm asking the larger community to help look into so we can understand it....not brush it under the rug and pretend it's not a thing because it's not understood.

[Chubby 5]

16 hours ago, CistaCista said:

 

 

Mixed speed and draft can't really be made anymore. In one in a thousand cases, a speed trait gets mixed in with the draft horses maybe. I never saw that a foal had 2 traits combined with 3 of the other.

And that's one of the broken mechanics they need to fix real soon.

The fact that 5 speeds split into 3/2's shows how important it is to have mixed traits and the current system not really giving you that option is a complete failure and is why breeders left in droves...because they broke it.

That's why we need to more testing to find out exactly what these traits do so we can know just what extent they broke it so they can fix it, and in the meantime properly breed to work around it until it is fixed.

 

Splitting up necessary and complementary traits into various categories is a great idea, especially with the creation of output traits for milkers. Making these necessary and complimentary traits into various categories then making so you can't intermix them is the problem that needs to be solved. The whole idea of adding and splitting these traits is to make customized breed for individual needs and not being able to mix them breaks that entire concept at the root.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Chubby

[CistaCista 253]

27 minutes ago, Chubby said:

not being able to mix them breaks that entire concept at the root

 

I have no idea why they came up with that concept of "dominance". Its horrible and unnecessary.

The point system is fine and secures that no horses are made that are maxed in both categories (since 120 skill would be required).  

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

40 minutes ago, Chubby said:

The fact that 5 speeds split into 3/2's shows how important it is to have mixed traits and the current system not really giving you that option is a complete failure and is why breeders left in droves...because they broke it.

they added like 100kg to carry weight of horses before they slow down, way more than the traits gave you before so you don't need the draft traits for riding horses anymore, so might be something else that made them leave

[CistaCista 253]

21 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

might be something else that made them leave

 

From what I have seen and heard, most that refused the new system did so because a) they could not make draft horses out of the old speed horses that they already possessed. They did not want to "start over" for the new challenge. And b) a lot more possible combinations, also meaning more bad combinations, means more foals have to be killed.

[Yserin 171]

On 8/24/2021 at 8:27 AM, Borstaskor said:

Just tested four molten draft hellies on a wagon.

Wagon QL: 90
With empty wagon: 35.3 km/h

With 12 crates full of dirt: 33.8 km/h
Loss: 2 quint (~1.5 km/h)

 

With 12 crates full of logs: 30.2 km/h
Loss: 7 quint (~5.1 km/h)

I don't think shoes and other equipment matters since, as far as I'm concerned, the ql of the wagon and the traits are what's supposed to affect how much it doesn't get slowed down.

Picture of the traits used as well as the dirt cargo:

 

 

Conclusion: I don't see myself having any issues using the wagon to move most anything, at least up until probably 60,000 kg. Maybe more later on when I get my wagon imped higher or I get a rare trait or two.


PS. WTS up to nine seven 4-draft mules on NFI

ty very much for this.

[Yserin 171]

12 hours ago, Chubby said:

The fact that 5 speeds split into 3/2's shows how important it is to have mixed traits and the current system not really giving you that option is a complete failure and is why breeders left in droves...because they broke it.

 

several of us left because of how things passed down like the worst kind of lottery. like this breaking the 2/3 classic standard is livable as long as the new traits actually passed down right. mostly they did stuff like this:

 

 

 

check the parents traits against the offspring.

 

 

and this one where you loose the dom trait.

 

 

 

in theory with this newest patch ^ should happen much less. instead of the majority.

 

most of my 3-4 trait speed/draft came from animals that were tied 2 speed traits and 2 draft traits born before the patch. there were exceptions but not many. the old patch note threads have several other people with similar results if you want to wade through the salt. xD

 

 

here's hoping the new tweeks dont go overboard.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Yserin

[Keridwyn 72]

Here's some data I got today; I think bulls are underrated!

 

 

Plain bulls were zero draft, output bulls, ranging from adolescent to aged.

Draft bulls were 4 draft (x3) or 3 draft, not Easy trait (x1), all aged.

Draft horses were ebony 4 draft pure, old and venerable. No shoes.

Draft donkeys were 4 draft, adolescent.

Cart and Wagon were plain, no runes; quality listed above.