Samool

Update on development

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On 8/19/2021 at 4:06 AM, Cipacadrinho said:
On 8/18/2021 at 4:13 AM, Ogare said:

Why isn't 100% of development time being funneled into fixing animal husbandry? After reading the original post it seems that other ambitious changes are in the works. And in my opinion they should all be paused.

 

 

Getting top of the line mounts (5 speeds) was too easy in comparison to getting most of everything else at top quality.

 

Way too easy.

 

Is why horse breeders went extinct.

 

I think they should not touch the AH patch and leave it  as is but people grew to acustomed to their maxed out mounts and they cry in unison so the devs backed down to pure pressure.

 

A maxed out horse should be just as rare and/or hard to make as a rare 90ql weapon since mobility is just as important as one or probably the most important thing in combat.

What are you talking about? I didn't say Wurm should revert the animal husbandry change. I said they need to fix what they broke. 

 

I could argue how it's actually easy to make a 90ql item and how 90ql items are significantly easier to make then a end-game mount. But that is changing the subject. Wurm has said they think the animals husbandry change needs tweaking and they will "get around to it eventually". Well, in my opinion, they should drop everything and focus on fixing the broken update.

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12 minutes ago, Ogare said:

I could argue how it's actually easy to make a 90ql item and how 90ql items are significantly easier to make then a end-game mount. But that is changing the subject.

Put it this way. In the time span from when the AH update hit till today, you could have grinded 90 wep smithing from 1, and make a few rare weps in the process. Meantime I haven't gotten luckier than 4 speed horses. At least I got a few silvers from killing so many foals...still.

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2 minutes ago, elentari said:

Put it this way. In the time span from when the AH update hit till today, you could have grinded 90 wep smithing from 1, and make a few rare weps in the process. Meantime I haven't gotten luckier than 4 speed horses. At least I got a few silvers from killing so many foals...still.

It's not just time. Do note, I'd have a hard time grinding mining to 93, finding a 93+ ql vein, sweet spot grinding WS to 90 all within 4 months. I don't have access to coc or money to buy sleep powder.

 

1. Wild breeding-animal supply is limited on Cadence. Maybe it's fine on other servers. Basically only those who already had plentiful stock can progress and benefit from the system.

2. Pay wall, 100 animals on deed and still have good ratio is about 3s upkeep and 15s land buy.

 

I wants to spend 1s in upkeep and only had 4 horses before the change. With those two things in mind I can say it extremally difficult to produce even mediocre results with animal husbandry.

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Yeah prices on NFI are crazy. I've been where you are years ago. Best I can suggest is to find a good breeder and work out a deal with him / her to get some horses, maybe chop wood, dig clay, etc. It's one of the reasons I avoided NFI, the insane price gouging that was bound to happen. 

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12 hours ago, Ecrir said:

VR sounds like a really weird idea for the current Wurm as the controls and the way you play the game with them really doesn't suit VR controllers, unless the idea is that it's just another camera and that the player is to continue using the mouse and keyboard even with VR?


you probably should have read up
others have mentioned your point and i already responded to it

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So, what percent of Wurm players gonna use VR functionality?

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38 minutes ago, Steveleeb said:


you probably should have read up
others have mentioned your point and i already responded to it

The control scheme used in VR isn't the damned point being made in this thread mate.

Sure, you can use keyboard and mouse alongside a VR headset, but that's clearly not all that's being implemented. The fact that they're even bothering to implement any VR functionality to begin with is the problem. This game has so many more issues that need to be addressed, but the parent company doesn't have even the slightest clue or care and would rather push Wurm into as many buzzword categories as they can to satisfy shareholders that also, clearly don't have the slightest clue of how this game (or even the industry, really) works.

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3 minutes ago, Jore said:

. This game has so many more issues that need to be addressed, but the parent company doesn't have even the slightest clue or care and would rather push Wurm into as many buzzword categories as they can to satisfy shareholders that also, clearly don't have the slightest clue of how this game (or even the industry, really) works.

Good summary of how corporations handle products they don't know anything about. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jore said:

 This game has so many more issues that need to be addressed, but the parent company doesn't have even the slightest clue or care and would rather push Wurm into as many buzzword categories as they can to satisfy shareholders that also, clearly don't have the slightest clue of how this game (or even the industry, really) works.


yes, i already responded to that as well. even quoted a friend that i agree with who agrees with you.
im not chasing my tail for you, these things have already been paid homage. struth. and around we go. If you really care, skim the previous pages.
echo echo

page 4;

Quote

It's actually slightly more complicated than that, even. I have disassembled the wurm client many times and can tell you that the rendering engine is riddled with issues that can cause memory leaks and frame hangs. The garbage collector issue doesnt help either, but on my system the main issue is that they often dont even re-use textures that have already been loaded to the GPU. It forgets about it and requests a reload of the texture and that takes time, which you see as a stutter

On 8/18/2021 at 7:15 PM, Steveleeb said:

Is a game like this even capable of doing VR without some serious debugging.
Fair point.

it's just really nice to see the Virtual Reality intention mentioned for the first time in years.
Maybe it is unrealistic, maybe once that is realised through practise, the spaghetti code, endless bugs and leaks will get worked on and Vr will be delayed by years.
it's just nice to see the intention.
I guess code clubs pragmatism will be tested, sooner or later. (later)
 


Page 5;

On 8/20/2021 at 5:41 AM, wipeout said:

So given the limited button setup of a vr headset are we going to get improved improve finally or something along those lines? As it makes no sense to force players who use a vr headset to use a keyboard still if you guys go that route please just abandon vr all together as the joy of vr is to have a fully emerged experience with the head and 2 controllers being all that is really needed so unless wurm's ui gets a overhaul or qol changes are made to make vr(and non vr) based gameplay less click intensive i honestly do believe that vr will become a useless unused feature for 99% of the players who even have a vr headset to begin with.

 

On 8/20/2021 at 6:00 PM, Steveleeb said:


there's nothing wrong with using a keyboard and mouse in vr. i do it often.
I tried WO through Guy Godins virtual desktop a few times .. not so good for grinding but epic, for smelling the coffee and exploring. . with keyboard and mouse.
I dearly hope if and when we get VR, these control mechanisms aren't disabled.
As for improved improve.. there's a far better one available from inniria that Snidor has tweaked to perfection. just an fyi

If we need a modded experience for WO VR then maybe a VR server might work but i don't believe we do.
Sorry for talking about virtual reality again i know there's greater issues to address.   <<<<<<<


you're welcome, nugget.

Edited by Steveleeb

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17 minutes ago, Steveleeb said:

yes, i already responded to that as well. even quoted a friend that i agree with who agrees with you.
im not chasing my tail for you, these things have already been paid homage. struth. and around we go. If you really care, skim the previous pages.
echo echo

Yes, because it's your response everyone's looking for lol

People are allowed to voice their thoughts/opinions, even if it already echoes something that's been said by another, nugget :)

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Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2021 at 9:15 AM, Ecrir said:

VR sounds like a really weird idea for the current Wurm as the controls and the way you play the game with them really doesn't suit VR controllers, unless the idea is that it's just another camera and that the player is to continue using the mouse and keyboard even with VR?

 

14 hours ago, Steveleeb said:


you probably should have read up
others have mentioned your point and i already responded to it

 

That was it, then u pitch in with your smarm.
this thread is a bloody merry go round.
I'm sorry for not repeating myself, over and over and over and over and over again. Others have also, iterated and re-iterated the need for better development before we do VR.
I only sought to explain that we don't need to use vr controllers to publish a great vr version of wurm.
am i to repeat that every single page? or would you like to be ever so slightly mindful of the folks that aired your opinion already?
maybe you could click like and support them.
no, no lets pretend this is page one.
ok..

YAY, thanks for mentioning vr for the first time in ages, it's nice that it's not been forgotten but maybe the client needs fixing first.

shall i do that again.. on the next page.. ok.
ile check back tomorrow.

`maybe you should have read up, others have mentioned your point and already responded to it. `

see what happens when i remove `i`
is that betterrr?
have a lollipop.

Edited by Steveleeb
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Now how many pages of snark and snotty last-word quips can we get to. Jfc. 🙄

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Posted (edited)

A word about the VR rants: It is the decision of the company to do so, and that developers mulled that long before GC invested in Wurm shows that it is nothing unthinkable.

 

Of course I see the problems correctly pointed at

  • that low frame rates, lags and desyncs make VR a nauseating experience
  • that VR requires high performance client hardware, especially graphics controllers
  • that software has problems too, e.g. AMD supporting VR better than Nvidia, for Linux in particular
  • that "full VR" may not make sense for WURM: I imagine a Wurmian standing in tha middle of the room during a rift battle, jerking and appearing like suffering an epileptic attack for 2 hours, then breaking down in exhaustion
  • that VR support most prolly means SteamVR, so not available to all wurmians

On the other hand: With a background in unix OS and driver development, and system administration of multi tiered IT ecosystems, I see VR as just another IO device and protocol stack, nothing really extraordinary. I fail to see it as an impossible task to integrate it to just another application layer and C/S environment.

 

So why VR: Ok, VR users make 2.6% of steam users, which spells several millions (steam users are 140-500m iirc). It might be a way to tap into that potential of technically interested users. It seems that GC is allocating funds and manpower to develop in this direction.

 

I am not sure whether VR would prolly require a client on its own, or may be included into the existing one. Integration of VR, the one or the other way, will require quite some mopup of the code and the protocols, thus being in favour of the game.

Edited by Ekcin
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26 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

A word about the VR rants: It is the decision of the company to do so, and that developers mulled that long before GC invested in Wurm shows that it is nothing unthinkable.

Hi, I'd like to introduce you to the developer who mulled the idea before abandoning it:

On 8/18/2021 at 1:36 PM, Budda said:

Hahahahahahahahaha

 

Fact is, VR is such a massive undertaking, the claim that it will have no impact on development is either outright lying, or completely naïve, it's more than just strapping goggles to a game. 

 

It's a gimmick in a history of gimmicks under GCG, who operate in various grey-market zones, and thus only know how to advertise in grey-market ways, such as a campaign to follow Wurm on Twitter, join a useless discord, and play the game for ten minutes (shot of the discord) 

rex9YZ3.png

the G-Loot campaign is another example. Not in its creation or execution, or even delays (You rock DN, take your time), but in the Real Money rewards. It's clearly hoping to entice non wurm players to play for cash prizes, in the hopes they'll keep playing, if this competition wanted to be FOR wurmians, it would be in-game rewards, unique items, vanity stuff, not just a cash payout. 

 

Now we get to this post. THIS IS NOT COMMUNICATION. This is a bone thrown because players got upset enough to actually cause issues, and thus something was posted to shut us up. I'm guessing pandalet or Keenan caught wind of the issues enough to pressure this post to go out, it's nothing but an attempt to settle players down with a vague teaser about what's coming. 

 

In addition, this was only shared with us after the press release to investors, which also belies the goals of GCG, it's about increasing stock prices by appealing to investors about new tech and platforms, hoping they don't cotton on to the technical side of things. You'll notice this hasn't been shared with any of the gaming sites, because they would tear this news apart for the ridiculousness it is. 

 

The depressing thing is a solid game comes from doing what it sets out to do well. new gimmicks are pathetic and belie the fact that no one has any actual vision, instead opting to grab onto a market as opposed to define itself in its own space. Wurm is falling apart at the seams due to lack of maintenance on the game, updates go out without planning, changes are made after player reaction, and the game chugs along like some development team treating players like petulant children. 

 

The most frustrating bit for me is that communicating isn't even hard, be present on the forums, answer questions, comment on suggestions, bug posts, interact! It's about being present within the game, and building an understanding that you are around, you are actively invested in the game, and you give a %@%^ about it and the players. 

 

There's no real point in posting this, as the people who need to see it won't (prove me wrong, leave a cat emoji if you do).

 

P.S. Anyone notice the "summer exploration update" quietly became the "autumn exploration update"? Transparent as mud. 

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Craptalk. As Steveleep pointed out, it is already possible to connect the output part of VR equipment to a box and play WO with keyboard and mouse. There is no need to implement the full VR support at a time, and it is doubtful that it can be done for Wurm. And I am not sure about Java constraints. But otherwise there is not much of a point against some VR integration. After all, it is not you who has to do it. It is annoying how people obviously without the least technical background are ranting and patronizing.

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5 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Craptalk. As Steveleep pointed out, it is already possible to connect the output part of VR equipment to a box and play WO with keyboard and mouse. There is no need to implement the full VR support at a time, and it is doubtful that it can be done for Wurm. And I am not sure about Java constraints. But otherwise there is not much of a point against some VR integration. After all, it is not you who has to do it. It is annoying how people obviously without the least technical background are ranting and patronizing.

Let me reiterate: 

 

VR is more than just slapping goggles on a game and calling it VR, for an actual VR experience that is ACTUALLY VIABLE AS A VR GAME you need a lot more interactivity. Sure it's fine having a monitor on your face as you play, but if you're just doing window management like always, is it a VR game, or is it a VR gimmick on a game? 

 

No motion controls, no actual VR experience, just goggles on your face. 

 

that does not make a VR game.

 

And for the record, I do know quite a bit about it all, but that's okay, I understand that it may not seem that way from me explaining why it has so many issues when it comes to actually being viable in an increasingly innovative market. 

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55 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I am not sure whether VR would prolly require a client on its own, or may be included into the existing one. Integration of VR, the one or the other way, will require quite some mopup of the code and the protocols, thus being in favour of the game.

 

This, this so much.  VR isn't something you just throw onto a game without needing to adjust everything to work with it.  With how old Wurm is, I can see that they might need to construct a whole new client entirely to be able to make it functional, and that's not including all the things they need to test to make sure it doesn't interfere with the VR functionality.  This annoys me because Wurm needs a lot of love and work on its already existing features, ambitious plans are nice, but not when it sacrifices attention away from things that need help.  I just think that this could have been held back until they fix up all the existing issues people have problems with.  This just makes me think they're just going to stretch themselves too thin.

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All this talk about VR, and not a word about that how to avoid that exploration update to be a dissaster as fighting overahul and AH update was... We have zero info what exactly will it be, and people are building expectations. I find it funny how some people assume it's gonna be great, when past experience point out it's gonna be mediocre at best, which is fine, but just manage people's expectations about it instead of repeating fiasco with AH...

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I agree that more info about exploration would be fine. Moreover, a presentation, and opportunity for player test on the test server, as done with the new UI, would be very good.

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41 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I agree that more info about exploration would be fine. Moreover, a presentation, and opportunity for player test on the test server, as done with the new UI, would be very good.

God please let us on a test server before it goes live.

 

And for Pete's sake, PLEASE PLEASE actually advetise on the forums and / or ingame WHEN the exploration update hits the test server. NONE of the people I know had any idea that the AH update was on the test server (for a few days I think?) 

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Hello, I have had a VR headset for a long time and I regularly play VR games. But I really don't see the point of moving a game such as Wurm to VR ..... There are so many things to improve beforehand, and avoid the disaffection of the players for this game. Too bad to go towards such an option . In any case, the Vr does not interest me at all for this game, there are so many others which are really adapted to the thing. This is my opinion. I wonder more and more if the money spent in cz game would not be better elsewhere ..... thank you and have a nice day Note: where are we with the promised updates and which are still not there ???

 

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It's beyond bizarre to me working on VR support is something that is seen as a priority when there are MUCH more important areas of the game development that can enhance the play experience enjoyment for all players not just those with VR equipment. 

Especially considering we're nearly in September and we're yet to see any real work on fixing May's update. 

I just cannot see the logic behind this choice.

I love this game and have hyped it up and equally been critical  of it over the past 15+yrs of playing. Right now though I have never felt greater concern for the choices being made for this game and it's future development. Disappointing. 

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2 hours ago, JustADuck said:

Let me reiterate: 

 

VR is more than just slapping goggles on a game and calling it VR, for an actual VR experience that is ACTUALLY VIABLE AS A VR GAME you need a lot more interactivity. Sure it's fine having a monitor on your face as you play, but if you're just doing window management like always, is it a VR game, or is it a VR gimmick on a game? 

 

No motion controls, no actual VR experience, just goggles on your face. 

 

that does not make a VR game.

 

And for the record, I do know quite a bit about it all, but that's okay, I understand that it may not seem that way from me explaining why it has so many issues when it comes to actually being viable in an increasingly innovative market. 


yeah, virtual desktop is just a curved monitor strapped to your face. if you relax, it's very, very cool when you try it with WO but.. it is in no way native or truly immersive.
turn your head, the scene doesn't respond, you're just looking at another part of the heauge curved screen.
worth checking out, definately fun but.. it isn't the experience.
There is of course VorpX which does.. help many non-vr games feel almost like native vr but i've never bought it and can't speak for it.
it certainly doesn't have an injection template for wurm.

To my knowledge this is the first mention of VR since way before the move to steam. You'll have to forgive the fandom, it is a good dream but as emoo re-iterated.. it shouldn't be the priority.


 

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Posted (edited)

What scares me most is that they do not seem to have an idea about how complex VR implementations are. Not something you just do as a small side project.

That poor soul that has to implement all of this and make it so the performance of the VR client is playable.

Edited by Sklo:D
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Honestly if the dev team had just come out with something along the lines of "We are sorry for the lack of communication and development over recent months (some reasoning here), but we feel that several recent updates have fallen short of expectations such as the new AH and fighting system overhauls for example. Alongside the mountainous accumulation of unaddressed and unresolved bugs over the years, this will be our primary focus in the coming months before look to bring new and exciting content to the game." could have probably got behind that.

 

VR just sounds like a buzz word to deflect the heat in the current climate. But in the event it is actually something they are developing I can't see how it would integrate well in the slightest, would just be another buggy disaster no doubt and cause untold disruption for everyone. Perhaps it is going to be released as a standalone product, a one-off purchase like Wurm Unlimited, who knows, we can only hope.

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