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Drayka

Less extreme moderation options

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Even a temporary ban can seem like overkill, especially when a decision has to be reversed. Such reversals undermine player moderation as a principle. Mute is an existing example of a less extreme moderation option, and block is its player-instigated equivalent.

 

Freeze: Temporarily freeze all skillgains for that account.
Disable: Temporarily disable all creation/destruction actions for that account.
Cripple: Temporarily disable all free movement of that account.
Nerf: Temporarily reduce and/or freeze key stats or skills for that account.
Debuff: Add a timed penalty to an account.

 

If staff are going to engage in meta-PvP with the playerbase, whilst an accusation of rule-breaking is being investigated, I believe such powers would be far more appropriate than god-axing a player's access to their account with a ban, even a temporary one, which is surely more appropriate for investigations into hacking into the game-code and attempting to corrupt it. A player choosing not to log into their account whilst under investigation, because of features of gameplay being unavailable, should still be their choice.

 

PvP already exists as a player instigated equivalent of such powers. The point isn't to drive enemies out of the game, but to begin/continue a dialogue (however pseudo-physical that dialogue). Denying a player access to /support, and no facility of in-game, authorised appeal, seems wrong on so many levels. Human error exists, and a staff member being judge-jury-and-executioner is a LOT of power to wield. The situation of a player being banned for coming to a different, yet logical interpretation of a rule, should never happen.

 

If these powers would encourage abuse, then it is still a lesser evil than kicking someone from the game for a misdemeanour or a misunderstanding. Mute already exists.

 

Edit: 

 

Edited by Drayka

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Whats the point in playing if you can move or your skills are frozen? Take the ban, smile and have a Coke. 

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He's pvp-er*

He's losing kingdom fellas with every exploit or w/e shenanigans(guessing)... and wants some easier way to not lose long term players.

IDK if banned pvpers regrind 70+ body.str etc.. even if it's easy in few weeks.. with legit korean kps champ skills or some questionably allowed practices, since rmt is banned and 'whales' or not, can not just buy a trained monkey name to use.

 

Either way makes some sense to have ban appropriate for actions, but not permanent, small player base - income from subscriptions.. of course if somebody exploited something sensitive - deserves a good measure, if everything is recovered.. probably something could be settled based on situation; as to what they can be, pff.. only seen some abuse for skill grinds, not item etc exploits so to that I can not say at all - which actions deserve what kind of penalties.

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Ban players who break rules and you build a community who understands the rules exist and are enforced euqlly and fairly, leading to a much more positive community. 

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6 hours ago, Drayka said:

Human error exists, and a staff member being judge-jury-and-executioner is a LOT of power to wield.

 

Very rarely is a ban based on a single persons opinion, these things are usually discussed within the whole gm team unless its some edge case that one of the bosses makes an executive decision.

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1 hour ago, Archaed said:

Ban players who break rules and you build a community who understands the rules exist and are enforced euqlly and fairly, leading to a much more positive community. 

 

Really?

 

Call for me to be officially permabanned then, for no other reason than because I exist. Because at this point it makes no odds to any of my accounts or any account I could create in future.

 

I'm severely autistic, and by my atypical interpretation of the most recently updated rules, it is now illegal for me to log in any account into Wurm, and progress beyond the tutorial server. And even before that update, I interpreted that it would be illegal for me to report anyone for breaking the rules in the first place, which ironically includes reporting myself for upsetting anyone. I worked around this atypical interpretation at the persistent insistence of a non-autistic player that requested and required me as their friend, to log in my main account again, to the extent that I forwarded a self-written disclaimer to the HGM, stating that I am aware that I have no legal right to use the playtime I have purchased, and I accept that I can be banned at any time by anyone who objects to my presence in the game, but that I will do my absolute best to behave ethically at all times towards all members of this community, regardless of my presence in the game being an illegal and willful act of selfish disobedience.

 

And because of this declaration, I am now I am now stuck in a situation of self-ban from the game, because a player, who did not contact a staff member to back their interpretation of the rules, made it quite clear that my ideology of gameplay was incompatible with theirs, and refused to discuss the matter again after furthermore stating that he did not care if I played or not.

 

Please do not assume that because an individual understands that rules exist and are enforced, that this automatically results in a positive and inclusive community that only excludes persons with genuine criminal intent to ruin the game for other players. Not everyone can interpret social directions as they were intended to be interpreted as easily as breathing.

 

PvP drama was HELPING me to adjust to simple social challenges a normal child would be more than equal to, by immersive exposure to social stress in the absence of non-player authority figures, right up until the latest rule update. This is not a therapy I can receive in RL, because it actually requires making FRIENDS who CARE about you, not a medical authority figure handing out medications with increased risk of suicide as a common side effect, as if they're smarties.

 

I get that most of you only play this game to escape from the challenges of RL, but for some of us, this is the ONLY RL we can sustain without getting kicked from every single human community for not being normal enough to satisfy the minimal requirements of every single member, however minor their involvement in the community. I suspect most of you would rather never be on the same server as me, and no PAID member of staff should be required to sort out the kind of extreme-example drama I can get embroiled in, due to misinterpretation of my intentions by another player, let alone an unpaid volunteer.

 

I'd would personally take a CRIPPLED account I was judged to have the right to log in on, and be damned grateful for it, over this social nightmare of trying to self-regulate my behaviour on behalf of players who don't even CARE if I play or not.

 

This is the stupid-example I HOPE does not break any game rules for me to discuss the details of.

It is NOT in any way indicative of the reason for posting this suggestion, which WOULD require me to break current game rules to publicly post the details of.

Edited by Drayka
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wall of text.. too much to read to .. care to read..

 

But the start have a point.... 1 of the tos from forum rules is amazing.... "writing something to provoke a certain response" is considered trolling, every time somebody asks a question - leads to instant ban reason, actually have a good example but lets not right now...

 

Some of the TOS need a batch of cookies a big pot of tea and some reworking to be MORE CLEAR and not freely allow wild interpretations, exactly that allows good and bad mods to do whatever they imagine is 'right'.

#FoodForThought

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O-K, after reading that... you should follow the tos.. if somebody cares or not if you play or not.. is irrelevant to you and others.. if it's not for you.. grow some confidence you do not need any player's approval, that aside don't be an AZZ, pve or pvp.. there are few small rules to follow for basic gg gameplay that assures less stress etc for everybody, you don't like somebody, don't talk to it.. done, no need to grief it.. on pve.. on the pvp side.. pff.. raid that piece of ... you get the idea :)

I also do not care if you play or not, that's just because we do not play, talk or interact in the game. In that sense.. I do not even know if you exist in the game or not.(makes sense right? you also don't care if I'm around for same reasons and have no clue if/when I play or not etc)

Chill with the player stuff and selfbanning or w/e that above was.. makes no sense.. any business keeps that loophole to kick your ass for being unreasonable etc, that's something else, have nothing to do with other player's approval.

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14 minutes ago, Finnn said:

O-K, after reading that... you should follow the tos..

Thanks for the feedback @Finnn, it is hugely appreciated and I will attempt to act on it. Autism is such a . for literal interpretation, even though I am FULLY aware that such interpretations were not accurate to the intent, that I cannot promise to follow the official TOS as currently written - that would be logically impossible.

 

However, I will attempt to update my interpretation of my own TOS, as implied/requested.

 

Edit: Found it. I keep overlooking that 'all members of the community' includes self. Common error in my case, to forget to include self in the definition of 'community'.

Edited by Drayka

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6 hours ago, Archaed said:

Ban players who break rules and you build a community who understands the rules exist and are enforced euqlly and fairly, leading to a much more positive community. 

If all players who broke rules got banned equally and fairly, then sure you'd have a community that understood that rules exist and are enforced, but I don't see how it would necessarily lead to a more positive community.  It would lead to a smaller community that was not breaking rules.

 

But what if the rules aren't clear, or have lots of wiggle room built into them so that they can be freely interpreted on a case-by-case basis, or simply aren't enforced equally or fairly?  What kind of community does that lead to?

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So Darnokk, oh I mean Drayka, are you actually banned from the game under any sort of staff judgement or are you self banned because some random player was upset with you? I can't tell from the outburst. 

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2 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

So Darnokk, oh I mean Drayka, are you actually banned from the game under any sort of staff judgement or are you self banned because some random player was upset with you? I can't tell from the outburst. 

 

Hey PurpleBricks. The latter. The most anyone has EVER actually done as far as in-game moderation goes, is /block me for panic-spamming them for guidance during a meltdown. Not fun for anyone.

 

I did once confuse the hell out of a GM for trying to report myself and get an account of mine deleted for behaviour that upset an enemy player. He was and is an amazing staff member. Very patient and calming. Enemy player said I would cause players to quit the game if I continued to refuse to conform to normal expectations. Different enemy player months later said that if more people on the server shared my attitude to the game, player retention would be far higher. Very mixed messages.

 

Most PvPers ponder how to more efficiently grind weapon, shield and stance skills. I ponder whether, if there was circumstantial evidence of 1 evil person in the entire world, if a law was passed that said anyone, anywhere, anytime, could be murdered in order to try to defeat evil, could I accept that law as a necessary evil?

Edited by Drayka

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You worry about a scenario that has not happened, and also worry that there will be a zero discussion ban just placed on you. 

 

Is this related to anything in particular? Or purely pvp actions? 

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45 minutes ago, Archaed said:

You worry about a scenario that has not happened, and also worry that there will be a zero discussion ban just placed on you. 

 

Is this related to anything in particular? Or purely pvp actions? 

 

It's confusing how I often get told to 'learn empathy', but if I relate to something that has happened as if it happened to me, I'm judged as a worrier. And I did specifically state that my shared-example(s) is/are extreme, stupid-example(s) (even in my own judgement) that hopefully do not break the rules for me to talk about, theoretically EXACTLY BECAUSE such things have zero content that would trigger anything but bafflement in the playerbase.

 

I am sorry that I cannot be explicit about the evidence used as a basis for suggesting this, but the rules do expressly forbid the official-channels public discussion of such things, and I lack the necessary socio-political skills to worm my way around the rules with tactful censorship of key phrases and references. It is my nature to be bluntly direct and painfully honest, a.k.a. tactless.

 

I believe I can safely say that it is NOT limited to PvP server actions, but game-wide and not limited to any one instance.

Edited by Drayka

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Are you concerned about harassment and words leading do you being banned, or actions against game rules? 

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I don't give a ... bad penny for what happens to me. No staff member could expect more of me than the impossibly high standards I expect of myself. I do care immensely what happens to other members of this community, past, present and future, regardless of their ranking/titles in the hierarchies of Wurm.

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Let's say I was a moderator - I AUTOMATICALLY wonder what I would do in that situation when I hear about a moderation action. Let's say I had a player on my hands that was breaking the game rules of not immediately obeying the instruction they are given, because they are disputing my interpretation of the rules as applies in this case. The rules staff follow PROBABLY state that this must have immediate consequences to the player in question.

 

Action to be taken: Debuff - 15s reduction to 1.00 skill in yoyo. Staff equivalent of shitposting; a.k.a. building rapport.

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I cannot see in any way how this provides any benefit to the community, the moderation teams, or the game as a whole. 

 

It just sounds like you're upset someone got banned with the argument "but it wasn't explicitly against my interpretation of the rules" 

Edited by Archaed

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I can see how you might interpret it that way. And I thank-you for your feedback on your opinion of me.

 

However, assuming for the sake of your interpretation, I was talking about someone who was banned from the game for a reason that withstood appeal, would that not be publicly challenging a moderation decision, which is explicitly forbidden in the game rules?

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God-axing has its place. If someone is reporting that a player is doing something that is an imminent and immediate threat to the integrity of the game code, then absolutely, you pull the plug on that account before you have to pull the plug on the server, or the entire game. No hesitation, no doubt, no waiting on corroboration or cool headed thinking. I do not want that power stripped from GMs under any circumstances.

 

If however, there is no imminent threat to the integrity of the game code, it is appropriate for moderators to have access to tools less drastic. Rushed decisions and mis-clicks happen that cannot be instantly reversed.

 

I'm not saying that bans should be abolished. I'm saying that arresting someone on suspicion, is very different to shooting an unarmed civilian, in-line with the ideals and aspirations of modern, 1st-world law-keeping.

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18 hours ago, Archaed said:

Ban players who break rules and you build a community who understands the rules exist and are enforced euqlly and fairly, leading to a much more positive community. 

 

11 hours ago, Surigx said:

If all players who broke rules got banned equally and fairly, then sure you'd have a community that understood that rules exist and are enforced, but I don't see how it would necessarily lead to a more positive community.  It would lead to a smaller community that was not breaking rules.

 

But what if the rules aren't clear, or have lots of wiggle room built into them so that they can be freely interpreted on a case-by-case basis, or simply aren't enforced equally or fairly?  What kind of community does that lead to?

 

2 hours ago, Archaed said:

I cannot see in any way how this provides any benefit to the community, the moderation teams, or the game as a whole. 

 

It just sounds like you're upset someone got banned with the argument "but it wasn't explicitly against my interpretation of the rules" 

 

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I apologise. I did not want to be the one to suggest this privately discussed and refined idea, because I tend to screw-up the delivery of explaining and showcasing it. The more important something is to me, the more I believe in it, the more I become the worst person to suggest it. Everything turns into a fight to be understood that I am guaranteed to lose.

 

This is why we don't ask innocent people to defend themselves in court. I'm totally rubbish at triggering empathy in others, regardless of the fact I have done nothing wrong. And people who get pissed off at my failure to trigger an empathic reaction in them, tend to escalate their rejection of me, and thus my ideas.

 

I truly believe that every single player can fail in the moment of being accused of wrongdoing, of reacting with utter faith that a moderator will find them innocent of any wrongdoing that they have not committed. Simply being told of an interpretation that has never occurred to you before, introduces doubt into one's self-image of having acted correctly. I believe that all people are capable of reacting to this introduction of doubt, as if guilty of having done wrong unwittingly, and bringing down unwarranted punishment upon themselves by panicking. And this does not lead to a situation of simple and accurate punishment for wrongdoing, but punishment for panicking. Effectively, snapped at at for stammering, which worsens the reaction to stammer.

 

I say this as someone with a reaction of panicking under accusation to truly stupid levels. Levels of sheer stupidity even I can recognise after the fact. But consistent experiences of being judged guilty when innocent only escalates the reaction in the moment, justifying and reinforcing a panicked reaction to the mere accusation of guilt.

 

To respond to @Surigx's thought-exercise, it leads to a society where the miscarriage of justice is rife. Belief in the prevalence of the miscarriage of justice, means that no-one can tell if someone who was banned is deserving of being banned. Which undermines the principle of player moderation - loss of belief in these volunteers being servants of the community instead of servants of their own interests - and increasing community feeling that moderators deserve to be attacked as corrupt. This in turn, leads to volunteers burning out or increasing the penalties for challenging their authority, in mirrored reaction. Which in turn leads to players automatically being assumed to be servants of their own interests, instead of assumed to be servants of the community. A classic, vicious circle.

 

What I am supposed to be showcasing, is HOW corruption can come into being at all, why we have so many undeserved negative steam reviews that name bad moderation as a reason not to play the game, and why our in-game PR can get so low. And what can be done pragmatically to reverse this trend.

Edited by Drayka

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