MordosKull

Reaction to Staff Statements on Game Status

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56 minutes ago, Archaed said:

This thread is now so confusing. 

That's what I think of every roomful of people making small talk with each other, and yet, it never stops well-meaning people from insisting that I just need to go-join-in, as if I'm merely crippled by shyness, rather than in fact experiencing that they are talking about things that I can't relate to, in ways that I can't keep up with. It's worse than not comprehending a foreign language; because it makes you feel like you should be able to understand, except that everything is somehow being lost in the English - > English translation. No matter how precise I have tried to be with my language over the years, somehow I can never speak the same language as the majority. And that can lead to the same sense of disconnect as this 'lack of communication' issue, on a constant basis, except that money could never be expected to fix my problem.

 

I say this in the tone of one thoroughly depressed and disheartened at this point - life would be so simple, if it could just be summarised with indignation over not getting what you believed you would be buying, as a privileged and VIP customer. I feel that I understand the appeal of viewing the world that way. But life will never be that simple.

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it's literally 2-3 people surfing offtopic nonsense in the past 1 page and a half

forum pvp

pointless to read, have a point - write a sentence; life thoughts.. woodscrap essays still entertain people, there's place, time and public for everything

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Yeah, you're right. I prefer the company of people who are upfront about wanting me dead because life is crazy, than the company of people who think that everyone should behave like a good little robot and never feel anything but a love for money and what it can buy.

 

I'm out. Such topics are beyond me to usefully contribute to, even if the staff do deserve better than this.

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This thread is now so confusing. 

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5 hours ago, Finnn said:

it's literally 2-3 people surfing offtopic nonsense in the past 1 page and a half

forum pvp

pointless to read, have a point - write a sentence; life thoughts.. woodscrap essays still entertain people, there's place, time and public for everything

This is 'Reactions to staff statements' correct? Well I am here DEFENDING staff. they are not some super powered avatars with AI: They are real flesh and blood human beings. and they don't deserve to be treated with disrespect.

 

 

4 hours ago, Archaed said:

This thread is now so confusing. 

I am sorry we have confused you, was NEVER my intention. I use to live a life constantly confused, its no picnic. if you have actual questions ask someone. and not of your 'normal' social circle....the world is a VERY large place, and everyone lives differently.

 

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1 hour ago, Tomatoes said:

This is 'Reactions to staff statements' correct? Well I am here DEFENDING staff. they are not some super powered avatars with AI: They are real flesh and blood human beings. and they don't deserve to be treated with disrespect.

Nah mate, it's now time to go back to our own version of these dramas and clean up the fallout to us of losing veteran PvPers who can't perceive the difference between a war mechanic and a game exploit.

 

It's PvE internal-drama to learn the difference between a fiscal mechanic and abusive behaviour. Some of them will leave, like the PvPers who don't find Wurm PvP engaging enough to stay, and some will get banned, just like our PvPers who don't report an exploit because they perceive it as an opportunity too good to miss.

 

Devs aren't gods, and it's Enki's job to defend them from stubborn hotheads who think that just because they CAN do something, they have the right to take full-advantage of the opportunity to do so. And this topic is ALL about the playerbase reaction to the staff being invisibly exploited. When PvPers use mechanics the Devs never intended to be available, and can't justify as 'intended features' of natural code mutation, they get banned. It's harsh, but necessary. PvEers aren't exempt from that, but it's even less clear where that line is for them, than for us.

 

They can get just as uptight about their self-justified right to have unlimited fun at the expense of others, as ours can. But their war exists in RL as well. We only get virtual weapons to play with. Not even the worst of ours would dream of using a real weapon against a Dev or staff member. The worst of theirs WOULD believe they have the right to sue a developer, for not giving them what they believe they deserve, just because they paid real money for it. That's harder for people to accept, because the RL-community hasn't already 'done it for them'.

 

Those fiscal war-leaders deserve to be banned more than the most cunning of ours, because they are more toxic to this community. Such individuals can cripple development more than we ever could, because they can put the fear of poverty into the staff. Ours merely manage to kill 'fringe' servers, by driving out first the staff, and then the players; convincing players that staff shouldn't be allowed on PvP, because they can't be trusted not to spy and leak insider information, and hamstringing the entire community until the server can literally be levelled to the waterline with no resistance, because 'that's the ultimate point of any war'.

 

The best thing we can do to support the staff at this point, is have faith that they have such a worthy champion in Enki, that no-one needs anyone to explain his actions further. We're only underfoot now, getting in the way of moderation practices. As hard as it can be to accept, sometimes the best thing to do with a persistent puzzle, is accept that it deserves to be allowed to simply cease to exist for now, by being excluded from our world; like any organic body vomiting up a poisonous substance.

 

The ones that are truly worthy of inclusion, will come back stronger for their temporary exclusion. That's the true elegance of it, over time; the medicinal properties of the poisonous, in small doses. "The point isn't to avoid the war; the point is to win it together." Anything further we have to gain from discussing this, we can gain by discussing it amongst our own, as part of our recovery from the ban-cull, and truly understanding why they weren't allowed to stay among us, instead of putting them on pedestals as pagan deities of our culture, and martyrs to our survival. The true heroes are always the truly overlooked, and it is our job as a whole community of individuals, to learn the correct balance between gently respecting their weaknesses and right to protection, without ever forgetting to laud their strengths and their ability to rise to the challenge, for the equally-overlooked, uniting reason. Each in our own time, at our own pace, among our own friends.

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This thread has officially been hijacked by Tomatoes and Drakya

 

/locked

 

ps: remember the Pearl

Edited by DADLER
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8 hours ago, DADLER said:

This thread has officially been hijacked by Tomatoes and Drakya

This thread is like cat herding, no matter how much you try to steer the conversation back to what it was originally about lots of people just bring up things that aren't even relevant to the conversation. It should have been closed two pages ago.

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TL/DR

  • The parents disappeared without warning.
  • Eventually they came home to find the place was a mess and one of the kids had hurt someone.
  • Some of the kids misbehaved, some didn't.
  • All of the kids are now listening to Dad screaming and yelling about how much punishment he's going to dish out.
  • One of the kids thinks this is great. It's safe to say he's an outlier.
  • Most of the rest are upset; some are in tears.
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1 hour ago, Sheffie said:

TL/DR

  • Some of the kids misbehaved, some didn't.
  • All of the kids are now listening to Dad screaming and yelling about how much punishment he's going to dish out.

 

I'm still waiting to see if the kids will be informed of the punishments handed out. Or are the parents going to protect the reputations of those who misbehaved?  Again, why does the staff here protect the reputation of those who blatentently break the rules? Shouldn't the playerbase be informed so we can decide for ourselves if we wish to do business with those who mistreat others?

 

"Your reputation is yours to protect" ... unless you break the rules, then staff will protect you.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Gumbo said:

 

 

I'm still waiting to see if the kids will be informed of the punishments handed out. Or are the parents going to protect the reputations of those who misbehaved?  Again, why does the staff here protect the reputation of those who blatentently break the rules? Shouldn't the playerbase be informed so we can decide for ourselves if we wish to do business with those who mistreat others?

 

"Your reputation is yours to protect" ... unless you break the rules, then staff will protect you.

 

 

You've got that completely wrong. It's not "protecting those who break the rules" it's "Not publicly discussing moderation actions"

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24 minutes ago, neopherus said:

You've got that completely wrong. It's not "protecting those who break the rules" it's "Not publicly discussing moderation actions"

 

That is what is called an excuse. Why don't the staff discuss moderation actions then?

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1 hour ago, Gumbo said:

That is what is called an excuse. Why don't the staff discuss moderation actions then?

 

They pick and choose who gets ban threads based on severity of actions or something. It's why folk like Platyna got a thread when permabanned, but not everyone else has.

I do agree with you, however. If you're going to make a thread saying punishment will be done, it's probably a good idea to also declare who and why got banned. Though they likely want to keep The Gallows as a place for permabanned users, rather than just general bans.

 

As for why they don't, I dunno man. On one hand, the folks are volunteers likely just thrown ingame currency, items and titles for the stuff they do. Quite often you'll butt heads with someone, and you both know you'll get nowhere. Because not only are you fighting against the other person, but because one holds all the cards on the deck. And don't like it? Take it elsewhere. Doesn't matter how valid, or well versed your points are. If you think mods should or shouldn't have to deal with this is probably going to depend on how you view things. I'd happily tell people to jog on if they break rules for a couple of silver every month. Hell yeah I would.

On the otherhand, we players know that moderation tends to be pretty.... I'm just going to say flexible. I'm sure most of us have been hit with the old "contact X or Y for disputes" which is funny because I've now also experienced firsthand how unlikely replies are.

 

1 hour ago, neopherus said:

You've got that completely wrong. It's not "protecting those who break the rules" it's "Not publicly discussing moderation actions"

 

Your post was redundant before it was typed, even if the players in question aren't permabanned. You know The Gallows exists. It's expected in there. It's a section where bans are posted, and threads are locked so it can't be discussed.

Edited by Madnath
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35 minutes ago, Madnath said:

Your post was redundant before it was typed, even if the players in question aren't permabanned. You know The Gallows exists. It's expected in there. It's a section where bans are posted, and threads are locked so it can't be discussed.

 

The Gallows are for extraordinary cases and used when Enki deems it necessary. It's not for all bans.

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2 hours ago, neopherus said:

You've got that completely wrong. It's not "protecting those who break the rules" it's "Not publicly discussing moderation actions"

 

Why don't the staff discuss moderation actions then?

 

Address this please.

 

-------------

 

By not informing the playerbase as to who has been punished, you potentially subject the playerbase to associate with people who have griefed or harassed our friends, alliance mates, or even ourselves. You allow the bad people to come back and do exactly what they were punished for again. Let the players decide for themselves if they wish to associate or do business with the people that the staff have deemed bad enough to be punished. As it stands now, the staff are protecting the griefers, no matter what excuse you use to justify hiding their identity. 

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That Enki post is extremely unprofessional, mostly due to its vague hostility.

"Make no mistake folks, I am very unhappy at all that has been transpiring, but know this,  I know you have been concerned about the lack of recent public updates, and all this doom and gloom is just a mood that people feel from time to time, public updates will resume when the Dev team are ready."

Ok, so all the people complaining about having to beta-test an ill-conceived breeding update are just being moody? REALLY?
Seeing the friends list displaying "offline" besides most people is just being moody? REALLY?

Regarding the treatment of Demona, I certainly don't condone harrassment! But also let's not forget to cast blame on the people who put her into the untenable situation she found herself in. They turned her into a lightning rod, and refused to give her adequate protection, since she wasn't able/allowed to answer most if not all of the pressing questions us players had.

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1 hour ago, neopherus said:

 

The Gallows are for extraordinary cases and used when Enki deems it necessary. It's not for all bans.

 

2 hours ago, Madnath said:

They pick and choose who gets ban threads based on severity of actions or something. It's why folk like Platyna got a thread when permabanned, but not everyone else has.

I do agree with you, however. If you're going to make a thread saying punishment will be done, it's probably a good idea to also declare who and why got banned. Though they likely want to keep The Gallows as a place for permabanned users, rather than just general bans.

 

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2 hours ago, Madnath said:

They pick and choose who gets ban threads based on severity of actions or something. It's why folk like Platyna got a thread when permabanned, but not everyone else has.

 

....

2 hours ago, Madnath said:

On the otherhand, we players know that moderation tends to be pretty.... I'm just going to say flexible. I'm sure most of us have been hit with the old "contact X or Y for disputes" which is funny because I've now also experienced firsthand how unlikely replies are.

 

Since you mentioned both of those in the one post - as someone who interacted with that player almost every time I played, I will say that in my opinion it was more a case of that second quote than "severity".  There was supposed to be a review of that ban, but given public statements from those in authority pre-review I have doubts whether the review was more than box-ticking.

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9 hours ago, Sheffie said:

TL/DR

  • The parents disappeared without warning.
  • Eventually they came home to find the place was a mess and one of the kids had hurt someone.
  • Some of the kids misbehaved, some didn't.
  • All of the kids are now listening to Dad screaming and yelling about how much punishment he's going to dish out.
  • One of the kids thinks this is great. It's safe to say he's an outlier.
  • Most of the rest are upset; some are in tears.

Oh yes. I'm an outlier in the subcategory of outliers. Those kids playing carefree in the gentle sunlight will never relate back to me. But when Dad gets loud, at least I can actually hear his muffled, distant voice and find some comfort in hearing any human voice at all, instead of endless silence in the endless darkness. And that gives me hope that one day, those carefree kids might actually notice that actual people exist beyond their simplistic, paradisiacal version of 'everything that matters to me'.

 

Because what if whoever those parents disappeared to deal with, had been me? It wasn't. But it could have been. It could have been me that was important enough in extremis, that they would take time away from looking after their children 24/7 to care about the existence of.

Edited by Drayka

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3 hours ago, Drayka said:

Because what if whoever those parents disappeared to deal with, had been me? It wasn't. But it could have been. It could have been me that was important enough in extremis, that they would take time away from looking after their children 24/7 to care about the existence of.

..Except it isn't the absence itself that is the problem and it doesn't seem like many (if any) have objected to the reasons for absences.  The issues are firstly the way in which the absences were communicated (or rather, the fact that there was no communication about them until the complaints started getting noisy) and secondly the heavy handed and rather off-putting manner of the HGM's "return", including dismissing the complaints as "just a mood" (i.e. dismissing concerns about the apparent absence of everyone official as being without any basis or merit).  There is a distinct dissonance apparent in "... I am here to help keep the game healthy and happy ... a number of people's names are already being inscribed on my ban hammer."

 

In the words of the large green wise one;  "What [he is] doing is the opposite of helping."

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This thread is now so confusing. 

 

(seriously, how much weirder can this thread get?) 

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1 hour ago, Archaed said:

This thread is now so confusing. 

 

(seriously, how much weirder can this thread get?) 

 

If Global freedom chat or the official discord is anything to go by - a lot weirder

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8 minutes ago, Rhianna said:

 

If Global freedom chat or the official discord is anything to go by - a lot weirder

 

As weird as it gets(and i am including both discord and gl here) we all happen to be complaining about the same thing, we all just have different reasons and ways to explain it:
 

 

10 hours ago, Gumbo said:

By not informing the playerbase as to who has been punished, you potentially subject the playerbase to associate with people who have griefed or harassed our friends, alliance mates, or even ourselves. You allow the bad people to come back and do exactly what they were punished for again. Let the players decide for themselves if they wish to associate or do business with the people that the staff have deemed bad enough to be punished. As it stands now, the staff are protecting the griefers, no matter what excuse you use to justify hiding their identity. 


this is what we all are complaining about: we dont know, and as a community, we need to know. and not just about bans, but about other punishments as well. GameChest and Wrum Staff let US handle the 'politics' of being in game(no idea why), but fail to provide us with tools to protect ourselves from repeat offenders. 
 

 

13 hours ago, Gumbo said:

Again, why does the staff here protect the reputation of those who blatentently break the rules?

 

the problem with telling us, is, sometimes, people make mistakes due to misunderstanding things, and its not fair to the vast majority to have a 'public' record. What do you want to bet that is the reason most 'infractions' are not reported?

 

 

9 hours ago, Josso said:

That Enki post is extremely unprofessional, mostly due to its vague hostility.

 

i would rather someone who was 'human' deal with things like that, rather then a 'professional'. a professional is supposed to disregard human imperfections, and we are all imperfect. when dealing with people, you cant disregard those things that make us human(including emotions)

 

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3 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

In the words of the large green wise one;  "What [he is] doing is the opposite of helping."

The day the majority agree that having any rules at all creates injustice, you can say that enforcing those rules is the opposite of helping.

 

Seriously, deadly seriously, do not try to ban the head of the volunteer staff from having a perfectly healthy, very human and universally understandable emotional reaction to instances of abuse of his team-members and towards those who interpreted his inactivity as license. As shocking as you may find it that someone in authority is completely human, to require such a person to be otherwise, is folly of the highest order.

Edited by Drayka
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14 hours ago, Drayka said:

Seriously, deadly seriously, do not try to ban the head of the volunteer staff from having a perfectly healthy, very human and universally understandable emotional reaction to instances of abuse of his team-members and towards those who interpreted his inactivity as license. As shocking as you may find it that someone in authority is completely human, to require such a person to be otherwise, is folly of the highest order.

I have tried to do no such thing.  You seem to keep trying to categorize and judge my thoughts and attitudes based on what you are reading into my posts, not on what I am posting.  Please stop doing that.  

 

Coming from decades of being an outward-facing point-of-contact for organizational interactions that are necessarily less-than-pleasant I am fully aware that we are all human and we all react in human ways.  However, reacting and responding are two different matters entirely and as much as I have always been free to react naturally, I have always been expected to respond professionally.  In this context I am expecting only what has been expected of me in every job I have done for over 30 years.  This is precisely because I do expect customer-facing professionals to be fully human - and adult - and employ some consideration of what message they are sending and how it will be received.  This was not some in-the-moment response to an abusive phone call or over-the-counter harangue - this was a composed and posted text-format message which completely dismissed months of growing FUD occurring in a communications vacuum as "just a mood."   The beauty of text-based communication in a professional setting is that it affords the opportunity to be "fast to listen, slow to speak" and to be deliberate in responses rather than just reactionary. 

 

 

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