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MrKettle

Taking out Child from horse names

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1 hour ago, MordosKull said:

I'm a native speaker Ekcin, and I don't get it either aside from people having dirty minds. Your thoughts were the same as mine - an innocent name with nothing insidious about it. This thread has definitely become something else though. Best thing I've seen come of it, though, was the suggestion for people to be able to censor these things individually.

It is because of the placement of the words, for example for it to be about the fantasies of a child then it would have to be written as "child'sfantasty" as the fantasy is the property of the child; whereas it's written "childfantasy" which makes it non possessive and creepy.  It's linguistics.

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An apostrophe isn't always needed in order to properly show possession,  such as in this case. I have a language arts degree and write professionally..    But yes, I hear your argument. Let's just agree to disagree.

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What do you think about this lad's name?

e30556d99dbb1f4554bc03a3fb6a24cf.png

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37 minutes ago, Finnn said:

What do you think about this lad's name?

e30556d99dbb1f4554bc03a3fb6a24cf.png

🤣 Im highly offended. Just disgusting!!

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24 minutes ago, Finnn said:

What do you think about this lad's name?

 

A ready-made tool for trolling homophobic individuals, which I don't personally find triggering, and makes a great in-joke for those who do not find such topics triggering, amongst those who are benignly tolerant of such a sense of humour, as a healthy phase of growth as an individual. Behaviour which put into public action or words, kind of reminds me of young children chasing each other with dog-excrement-on-a-stick. It's very human.

 

I'm aware that what I was born as, triggers crippling phobia in some. And spiders trigger phobia in me. I don't expect those who are triggered by what I am, to be comfortable sharing a planet with the likes of me, just as I refuse to live in a country with poisonous spiders, given a choice. Their discomfort affects my life, just as my phobia affects the freedoms of house-spiders.

 

My way of dealing with that, is to try to be aware that though there is nothing intrinsically wrong with me, my very existence negatively affects the lives of others in a way beyond my control, and I don't have the right to force them to 'get over it'. Especially not by shoving it in their face, what I am, as if there is something evil about them not being able to cope. That would be like trying to force an epileptic to 'get over' their reaction to strobing lights, by petitioning for the national implementation of strobing lights in all public places. Or trying to force a fish to evolve to breathe on land by yanking it out of the water every 5 minutes.

 

There is a healthy level of social pressure to apply to someone, to challenge their attitudes. Then there is trolling them for being different, as if they have no right to be different. And being different is challenging enough, without being trolled to breaking point, either for the sake of 'fun', or over 'offensive behaviour'.

 

I've yet to meet someone who cannot recall one instance in their young life when they went too far, and truly upset another person to the point where they regretted their actions. We all learn to moderate our behaviour in exchange for social comfort in some way. But the same goes in reverse; requiring someone to feel guilty over being born, is going too far.

 

I don't use phobia mode for in-game spiders. That it is available, is compassionate. Having the option means I can choose to challenge myself and set the level of stress I can cope with.

 

I try not to use /block for people who trigger me in-game. That it is available, is compassionate. Having the option means I can choose to challenge myself and set the level of stress I can cope with. And I have been /blocked, and I have used /block - in that order, in unrelated situations. In both cases, this was a temporary situation. This mechanic being available, has allowed the parties involved to manage their stress levels to the point where no-one broke the game rules. I /blocked someone so that I wouldn't troll THEM, for saying something irrationally triggering to me personally.

 

Client-side controls are very helpful, when managing ones own level of stress - which can reach lethal levels in some individuals. And those who have issues with being /blocked, still have to accept that it is the dev-given right of another player, to use that tool to deal with strong emotions that they feel unequal to dealing with in the moment.

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FYI; here is an example of a social behaviour which the staff cannot write a rule against; and yet can be game-breaking.

It is the Wurmian equivalent of ancient witch-hunting logic:

MiRcFIU.png

Deadlock.

I personally find it triggering and intensely distressing. Others find it inaccessible and baffling. Some probably find it hilarious.

There's nothing that can be done about it, and it is responsible for most in-game and forum drama, in some form.

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I'm on the fence on this one.

Pro:  Remove or change the name.  No one would even miss it.

Con: The perception of a word combination occurs in the mind, and that perception being being projected into the community and asking the community to agree and have the game changed is just the sort of RL wokeness I think the detractors are really railing against.

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Okay, contrasting but relevant-to-us-all example of development decisions:

 

Some people find high-population servers too stressful to cope with. Their RL is full of drama, and they want somewhere quiet to get away from it all, where they can mostly afk-click and find IMMENSE STRESS RELIEF in doing so, whilst still making a valuable contribution to a human community, which additionally releases positive-reinforcement brain chemicals, and increases their commitment to the game.

 

BUT. By having servers full of people who don't want to interact back when you are friendly to them, they make the game unpopular to people seeking the entirely opposite scenario:

 

Their RL is lacking in opportunities to interact, and they want somewhere exciting to get away from it all, where they can truly engage with the environment and the community and find IMMENSE STRESS RELIEF in doing so, whilst making a valuable contribution to a human community... you get the idea.

 

Neither group is wrong in their aspirations, but too-high energy people will usually react by going elsewhere. This leaves some games - those who cater primarily to the afk-crowd - with a stable but low-overall population. Those games are never intended to make it big, but they have statistic-defying staying-power in the market, unlike the hugely popular games that need to churn out a brand-new, fully-fledged title every 6 months, just to keep up with their overheads and shareholders in that company, or go broke.

 

Wurm Online, is one of these fringe, long-lasting games that refuses to die and which its long-term playerbase will defend like a starving animal. We can't afford excellent graphics and tons of new content like other games. Our population always seems to be on the brink of unsustainability. And most investment companies wouldn't touch this game with a bargepole. We are what we are, and we're allowed to be proud of it, and our dramas.

 

This is a REAL survival MMO. We aren't just striving to survive in the game, we aren't just striving to survive each other, we are striving to keep the game-code itself alive and available to ourselves and to new generations of Wurmians. To do that, we must own what we are, good and bad, strengths and weaknesses, supporting and supported.

 

Wurm is so much more than what is programmed into the code. It is so much more than a mere 'game' than can be consumed in a few weeks of play and the next one must already be in development before the first is released. Even in same-genre, Wurm caters to a different sort of playerbase, a different pace of life, and different priorities to the mainstream.

 

Wurm is an opportunity to explore what it means to be us, across all ages, all competences, all time-zones, languages and budgets. It's as valid and diverse community as any country in RL. It's a place that can literally be called home by anyone, with all the connotations, challenges and levels of investment that come with that.

 

My point being, that Wurm may not have everything we want, but it has everything we need, including things which make us uncomfortable. How we deal with that, is as much our responsibility to rise to the challenge of, as individuals and as a community, as it is the devs' responsibility to code-in. We are the part of the game they can't program or bugfix. We have to dev ourselves and support each other to do the same. And full-time, part-time or whenever the whim takes us, that's as real as anything RL offers.

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it would be nice if breeding skill at super high levels let you pick from pool of both random name slots

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11 hours ago, MrKettle said:

It is because of the placement of the words, for example for it to be about the fantasies of a child then it would have to be written as "child'sfantasty" as the fantasy is the property of the child; whereas it's written "childfantasy" which makes it non possessive and creepy.  It's linguistics.

This is - sorry to say - a stupid argument. Names nowhere strictly follow orthographic rules, and punctuation and apostrophes are usually non existant in names. The reason is that codified orthography and punctuation is widely a product of the later 19th century while names exist for centuries, even milennia. To call linguistics here is just ignorant.

 

To elaborate that: The wide use of apostrophes in contemporary english has much to do that it is an isolating language (like albeit not to same extent as chinese), which other languages with frisian/germanic roots like german. dutch etc. are not, rather using agglutinations and flexions more liberally. Many traditional names in english, saxon use flexions, too.

 

Back to the topic, I fail to see the word child, and the combination cited, no more or less potentially offensive than a large host of other name parts in the horse name database, e.g. kiss, sweet, rags, dog, flea, to name a few. "Purging" the database would be a never ending story and precedency once beginning with. Given the highly subjective occurrence of potential offensiveness the right solution would be a client side opportunity of fading out offending text.

Edited by Ekcin
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8 hours ago, Drayka said:

FYI; here is an example of a social behaviour which the staff cannot write a rule against; and yet can be game-breaking.

It is the Wurmian equivalent of ancient witch-hunting logic:

MiRcFIU.png

Deadlock.

I personally find it triggering and intensely distressing. Others find it inaccessible and baffling. Some probably find it hilarious.

There's nothing that can be done about it, and it is responsible for most in-game and forum drama, in some form.

there-is-an-exception-to-every-rule-quote-1.jpg

keep talking though.. 3 posts.. nobody fighting you.. you're on to something - monologue

 

I don't care which name gets to stay or not, posting the screen in case some think child can go wild.. there must be a few wilder name mixes that should be revisited or not, I don't have to make any choices or be part of meaningless conversations about it here. Just giving you extra food for thought with the screen, some more testing with the name mixes might be a good idea.

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3 minutes ago, Finnn said:

keep talking though.. 3 posts.. nobody fighting you.. you're on to something - monologue

Technically it's called datadumping and it's a stress-reaction in ASD individuals to a key individual in their personal life refusing to talk to them when they are in social distress.

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58 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

This is - sorry to say - a stupid argument. Names nowhere strictly follow orthographic rules, and punctuation and apostrophes are usually non existant in names. The reason is that codified orthography and punctuation is widely a product of the later 19th century while names exist for centuries, even milennia. To call linguistics here is just ignorant.

 

To elaborate that: The wide use of apostrophes in contemporary english has much to do that it is an isolating language (like albeit not to same extent as chinese), which other languages with frisian/germanic roots like german. dutch etc. are not, rather using agglutinations and flexions more liberally. Many traditional names in english, saxon use flexions, too.

 

Back to the topic, I fail to see the word child, and the combination cited, no more or less potentially offensive than a large host of other name parts in the horse name database, e.g. kiss, sweet, rags, dog, flea, to name a few. "Purging" the database would be a never ending story and precedency once beginning with. Given the highly subjective occurrence of potential offensiveness the right solution would be a client side opportunity of fading out offending text.

It's ironic that you called my argument stupid but then make this your argument.  This is basic English, Destiny's Child is not Destinys Child, they are the child of destiny therefore are Destiny's Child.  If you write it as Destinys Child then it's the child of Destinys.  Just like Mr. Jones' rabbit still has an apostrophe - we aren't arguing the history of the language we are taking about this particular context, of child fantasy vs child's fantasy, so if you really want to launch yourself more off track why not argue about I before E except after C while you're at it.

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1 minute ago, MrKettle said:

It's ironic that you called my argument stupid but then make this your argument.  This is basic English, Destiny's Child is not Destinys Child, they are the child of destiny therefore are Destiny's Child.  If you write it as Destinys Child then it's the child of Destinys.  Just like Mr. Jones' rabbit still has an apostrophe - we aren't arguing the history of the language we are taking about this particular context, of child fantasy vs child's fantasy, so if you really want to launch yourself more off track why not argue about I before E except after C while you're at it.

I'm sorry, I really shouldn't laugh because of the context of this... but this is hilarious! We are now, quite literally, arguing semantics! 🤣 "Semantics." usually gets a 1-word brush-off before refocusing on the current topic. Except, this IS the OP topic. No wonder it's hard to stay on-topic.

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This is getting absurd. The use of apostrophes in English did not begin prior to the 17th, 18th century (check Merriam-Webster about that), as everybody familiar with texts from the Elizabethan era can confirm . And I did not find a single example of usage of apostrophes in names. So what your basic elementary school English is telling is hardly of relevance, especially in a medieval setting.

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3 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

This is getting absurd. The use of apostrophes in English did not begin prior to the 17th, 18th century (check Merriam-Webster about that), as everybody familiar with texts from the Elizabethan era can confirm . And I did not find a single example of usage of apostrophes in names. So what your basic elementary school English is telling is hardly of relevance, especially in a medieval setting.

Oh I see what you're doing now you're trying to make it like a role play thing, well there also wasn't magic, trolls and dragons in the 1000s either but that exists in game - neither does the English you are advocating for because that 17th century English didn't exist and they had that weird olde English.  So if you're entire argument hinged on the RP factors of the 1000s there should be zero modern English in the game, we need to start a monarchy and someone has to be the pope and we need to figure out where the crusades are going to take place.

 

This is why you don't use real world history in a fantasy game, clearly it doesn't work.

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We all know kyklops's's were from the paleolithic time period, and forest giants are triassic, this game makes no sense! 

 

Can we just hurry up and make the change so people can stop pretending to care about how much this would affect them? 

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I do not make it any thing like roleplay, but please tell me names containing apostrophes, I do not know any, not in English, Dutch, French, German, nor Russian (neither Chinese ofc). Also I did not (and still do not) understand the offensiveness of "Childfantasy", to whichever part the possessive case is attributed. And mind that I do not mock, belittle, or ridicule any kind of offense somebody  may take from any kind of naming or wording. Rather I fail to see where that may stop once begun.

 

Edited by Ekcin
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Oh, and while we are vaguely in the realms of the laws of semantics, I'd like to take the opportunity for a quick shout-out to @Enki(in hindsight,) for writing the most ironically perfect set of game rules I have ever read. Last update to those sent me into an extreme panic-attack worse than the one illustrated here over "high apostrophe intelligence". Totally broke me.

 

It IS possible to get BEYOND such things, if and only if one stumbles into a situation where one must find a solution, or lose everything one values in life, because it literally can send a sensitive individual into a life-or-death crisis to try to 'get over it'.

 

Just saying, these kind of things are not something everyone should be able to ignore as NOTHING. And those of us with extreme issues can be perfectly aware that it's a weird hang-up to have, and still be helpless to do anything about it.

 

We will try to selfishly change the world to avoid such instances of utter and absolute crisis - you would too in our place - and dogmatically enforce rules that are bad for us, let alone anyone else. But we can't pick the moment that we finally move past it, and the compassion of the community before, and during those times, is truly appreciated.

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This thread has degenerated way beyond the original suggestion.  I'm locking it before someone accuses someone else of being a Nazi.

 

Pandalet (LFM)

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