Darnok's gameplay and UX suggestions

[Drayka 485]

1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

You could engage someone

That sounds like the most challenging part of your entire counter-suggestion, @TheTrickster. Darnok has yet to show a talent for that aspect of interaction. I'm not sure it's fair to expect him to succeed.

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

6 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

If I had proper skills this server would have 1000 more players than WO right now 🙂

yeah well mine would have 2000 more players

[Darnok 203]

I thought about collisions, Wurm is a 2D world after all, so player hit-box would be 2D circle.
At least killing dragons wouldn't look so... 50 people on 1 tile. And there is a certain collision detection, because when you shoot a bow, you cannot hit the target that is behind the obstacle.

[Drayka 485]

I'd rather have my avatar standing on a horse and be considered to be riding it by the game-engine, than not be considered capable of riding a horse because stacking the models of a player and a rider 'looks stupid and unrealistic'.

 

How it looks, is a guideline. What is physically possible, is a guideline. Imagination, and not taking things too seriously, can paper over a lot of cracks in the implementation. Better 50 player-avatars on 1 tile, than no workable way to attack a completely mythical creature in the first place.

 

Some of the best games in computer-game history, have 16-colour 2D pixellated graphics, ludicrous by RL-yardstick mechanics, and took 2 hours to load the next part of the game with multiple crashed in the meantime. They no longer can be played on modern hardware even with an emulator - you have to have the original hardware. But the people who grew up playing these one-hit wonders that never became famous, were not wrong. The gameplay IS superior to any modern games that have huge budgets and massive incomes from them.

 

Popularity and profit-margin is not a flawless measure of the quality of any product. Graphics, realism, speed, stability, even availability, are not perfect yardsticks for judging the quality of any game.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

Aye, realism in a depiction of a dragon slaying is a fraught concept.

[Darnok 203]

1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

Aye, realism in a depiction of a dragon slaying is a fraught concept.

 

1st balance, 2nd realism

Whether it's a dragon or anything else doesn't matter. What matters is what the fight looks like.
If players had to disperse a bit it would look a lot better, and limiting the number of attackers would also help, because now a dragon needs to be incredibly strong if there is a possibility that it can attack it by as many players simultaneously.

 

Realism - As for dragons, already omitting the fact that a big dragon shouldn't enter a small tunnel, but it's not about the dragon, animals in general are incredibly strong, do you think that fighting in metal armor could help you much?

Do you think that 50 people with swords and axes would be able to win vs 1 rhino? Fighting in Wurm looks like it looks, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved and powerful NPCs should have a bit more abilities than a regular cow. But in order for them to have a chance to use these abilities, it would be nice to limit number of players that can attack them at the same time, collisions solve this problem quite naturally.

 

 

 

[Drayka 485]

1 hour ago, Darnok said:

1st balance, 2nd realism

Whether it's a dragon or anything else doesn't matter. What matters is what the fight looks like.
If players had to disperse a bit it would look a lot better, and limiting the number of attackers would also help, because now a dragon needs to be incredibly strong if there is a possibility that it can attack it by as many players simultaneously.

 

Realism - As for dragons, already omitting the fact that a big dragon shouldn't enter a small tunnel, but it's not about the dragon, animals in general are incredibly strong, do you think that fighting in metal armor could help you much?

Do you think that 50 people with swords and axes would be able to win vs 1 rhino? Fighting in Wurm looks like it looks, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved and powerful NPCs should have a bit more abilities than a regular cow. But in order for them to have a chance to use these abilities, it would be nice to limit number of players that can attack them at the same time, collisions solve this problem quite naturally.

-1

 

Besides which all 50 players do not stand on 1 tile to attack a dragon and win. I've only witnessed 2 Wurmian-dragon fights (only one of which resulted in a kill) and even I know that.

 

A dragon isn't a normal creature. It cannot obey the same biophysics as animals as we currently understand them, and exist. And no matter how much sci-fi and speculative palaeontology documentaries you've watched, neither can dinosaurs. All we have on dinosaurs, are suggestively-shaped mineral deposits and taught-popular theory. We don't even have that much on dragons.

 

My best friend said he wouldn't desire to play this game, because the fighting graphics offend him from glancing over my shoulder. I wouldn't invite him to play this game, not because of the graphics, but because he'd have a blazing row with everyone in my alliance within an hour and quit the game, without moving from the starter town token, after me doing an intensive walkthrough of the tutorial zone with him, OR he'd never make it through the tutorial zone in the first place.

 

He said he'd thought about a designing a proper combat system for Wurm, so I asked him to explain his thoughts. After a fraught conversation wherein I explained that everything he was suggesting was already in the game-code, just not reflected in the graphics, he still had zero interest in playing, because the only reason he had to take the slightest interest in the first place, was because I was playing Wurm instead of giving him my undivided attention.

 

He is not the type of person who would enjoy a sandbox MMO game, despite having done years of tabletop wargaming, pen&paper RPG gaming, building models of battlefields, and getting into coding simple, modern FPS and RPG game design with free, simple software. The reality could never live up to the fantasy for him, and the community would cause him to quit in self-justified contempt, immediately. He has only ever had three people in his entire life who he didn't treat with utter distain, and one of those was his now deceased wife whom he was full-time carer to since before I was born.

 

He wouldn't even get along with you very long, Darnok, because he would shred your arguments for increasing the popularity and profitability of Wurm like a gerbil going through tissue paper, and get banned from the forums for not being able to attack the idea and not the person. And THAT assumes he 'likes you' enough to not ignore your existence on this planet in the first place. Which he might, since you remind me of him, more than myself, most days. He's mellowed a lot because of knowing me, but he'd still probably have a lot of fun shredding your ego into subatomic particles, to see if there's anything in your head worthy of his attention. I was lucky (good or bad luck depending on your perspective) because I gave the only-right-answer to a question he considered all-important, before I ever met him, so I had the benefit of the doubt from before I was invited to meet him, 20 years ago. Before him, I didn't have a single friend in the world, and I'm still the only person he will even begin to treat as a friend, whilst saying he never wants to be friends with anyone, because everything about friendship is intrinsically corrupt from his perspective.

 

He wouldn't expect the developers to listen to his suggestions or feel-free-to-go-broke, not because he doesn't 100% believe that, but because he really doesn't believe anyone worthy of hearing his suggestions in the first place. Therefore his only source of external ratification, is me. And it took him ten years to realise that he didn't need to lie to me about everything, all the time. It had never made any difference to me that he was lying to me about everything, which is the only reason he felt he could be honest with me and not be burned.

 

My best friend of 20 years IRL is what this community would accurately label a troll without hesitation, attack on sight and petition for his ban. That does not mean his ideas and opinions are flawless just because he thinks they are, and that everyone should agree with him, even though I'm the only person in his life that he acknowledges has any right to judge his opinions to his own benefit.

[Zexos 468]

On 7/25/2021 at 1:09 PM, Ekcin said:

You seem not to play a priest. Gems are important for them, and miners and diggers the major sources (praying to a minor extent). Much of the gameplay in PvP and PvE depends on priests and their ability to reload favor fast. Once more, Darnok has not understood the game he doesn't play, and makes shitty suggestions.

 

Thanks we have the AH and cart disaster already. It indeed makes players "gasp", and quit AH if not the game altogether. And no, I do not see that Wurm needs "a change up". It needs many bugs removed, and it needs more high level mobs in PvE.

 

 

 

To be honest, I stopped reading the suggestions by Darnok, if not altogether, then mostly. They are by 99% in the categories 

• "fixing" the unbroken
• impossible to implement with reasonable effort
• painful and frustrating for most players
• breaking gameplay
• outright useless and poorly thought through
• stolen from tripe A games and not fitting a sandbox

 

 

I know a few activities which are that way, and find them somewhat relaxing. Most things I am doing do not fall into that category at all.

 

 

What about going out hunting, fishing?  There is more in Wurm than cutting bricks or sawing planks.

I've only been a priest once and that was just to bless some lamps. Yeah, I did not know that.

 

Gasp as in "wow, this is amazing" why would I mean a negative gasp??? 

 

The AH update effected me because of the lowering of cart/horse speed, I did not like it and I agree that things need to be tested fully before release and for the players to help shape it for the best results. 

 

I would say that the majority of the suggestions here are more so like blueprints. Then the devs can mess around with them or even take multiple ideas and stick them together. 

 

Attacking creatures is..... Ah.... Something to get through when I am going somewhere else.  I have tried to kill all of the monsters on my island before but after about 2 or 3 hours of cutting down foes, I got fed up. I was also more trying to level up my fighting skills too. 

 

It just does not really interest me.

 

Fishing with a rod I've not tried yet but I have tried net fishing and spear fishing. They are okay things to do on the odd chance.  

 

My most interesting thing to do on wurm is creating buildings, seeing them appear on the landscape. I've always found making things on games to be the most interesting thing for me. 

 

Though I hate creating the materials to build things. Why I sometimes pay other people for bricks and mortar.. Etc.

 

I've tried quite alot of different skills but nothing really interests me as much as planning and building....

[Chihuahua 82]

Are you trolling at this point or what?

[Drayka 485]

6 minutes ago, Zexos said:

I've tried quite alot of different skills but nothing really interests me as much as planning and building....

 

Yes, it's a shame things like deedplanner are not more officially recognised and supported as an intrinsic-to-the-gameplay tool.

 

When I tried to reimagine meditation, I envisioned one path to be skilled by entering some tool interface like deedplanner, that would allow flyaround of the immediate area and creating an overlay that would be stored in-game and visible to those on the same path, when meditating. A Wurm version of a planning conference. (To explain why you have to keep moving 20 tiles - because the flyaround is limited to 20 tiles at 1 skill)

 

Unfortunately I didn't get very far with the other paths, as explorative mining is 2D and simplistic, mob behaviour is too simplistic to require a tool to preplan a hunting or fishing expedition, and combat in Wurm is none too sophisticated either. I made some progress with the Path of Greed though - interface included fiscal tools for cost/expenses, trades, postage, in-game auction support, etc etc. And with the Path of Exploration - mapping interface, highway planning, etc.

 

All in all, there wasn't enough content already in Wurm to justify suggesting it. Which was a shame because the Path of the Acolyte was shaping up nicely.

[Zexos 468]

8 minutes ago, Drayka said:

 

Yes, it's a shame things like deedplanner are not more officially recognised and supported as an intrinsic-to-the-gameplay tool.

 

When I tried to reimagine meditation, I envisioned one path to be skilled by entering some tool interface like deedplanner, that would allow flyaround of the immediate area and creating an overlay that would be stored in-game and visible to those on the same path, when meditating. A Wurm version of a planning conference. (To explain why you have to keep moving 20 tiles - because the flyaround is limited to 20 tiles at 1 skill)

 

Unfortunately I didn't get very far with the other paths, as explorative mining is 2D and simplistic, mob behaviour is too simplistic to require a tool to preplan a hunting or fishing expedition, and combat in Wurm is none too sophisticated either. I made some progress with the Path of Greed though - interface included fiscal tools for cost/expenses, trades, postage, in-game auction support, etc etc. And with the Path of Exploration - mapping interface, highway planning, etc.

 

All in all, there wasn't enough content already in Wurm to justify suggesting it. Which was a shame because the Path of the Acolyte was shaping up nicely.

Okay..... I do use deed planner to plan things out.  Though I can't show them off to people in the way of: "now people can use the building and explore around it" 

 

That is more so the fun to give back to the community and see how they interact with what I've created. That's what I really like doing. 

[TheTrickster 2,284]

4 hours ago, Darnok said:

Do you think that 50 people with swords and axes would be able to win vs 1 rhino?

Yes, absolutely.  

[Drayka 485]

I don't have much respect for the RL efficacy of swords - to me they are mythical weapons, as used in games - but 50 people with boar-spears and axes, most definitely! Guaranteed win versus 1 rhino, if they aren't all pacifist, vegan, inner-city-dwellers who have never so much as caught a fish or chopped a bit of kindling in their life, if their life depended on killing it.

 

Edit:

Samurai swords are different. They are even more deadly than axes. 1 competent samurai-sword wielder, could probably take down a rhino solo.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Drayka

[Darnok 203]

1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

Yes, absolutely.  

 

With swords and axes? How? I can't even imagine that.

 

1 hour ago, Drayka said:

I don't have much respect for the RL efficacy of swords - to me they are mythical weapons, as used in games

 

Yes, that is why I don't understand why starting weapon is longsword not small axe which would have two roles, a weapon and hatchet (while hatchet could be removed from starting gear).

 

Quote

- but 50 people with boar-spears and axes, most definitely!

 

Yes, but for that we would need in Wurm paper-rock-scissors mechanics for PvE.

 

Quote

 

Edit:

Samurai swords are different. They are even more deadly than axes. 1 competent samurai-sword wielder, could probably take down a rhino solo.

 

Their legendary sharpness is a myth 🙂
Samurai swords were used for honorable duels without armor, so the one who had better fighting skills could finish the fight with one blow cutting flesh and cloth.

If you think about this legendary technique it doesn't make sense, if you have technology developed to such a level that you create swords that cut enemy armor, why not create armor, with this multi-layer metal technology, that will be difficult to penetrate?

For hundreds of years, Japan has fought only civil wars, their weapons and armor were more oriented towards honor fighting than effectiveness, which is best evidenced by their defeat at the first meeting with the Europeans or the fact that for hundreds of years they failed to conquer anything but their own islands.

IF they would have swords cutting metal armors they would conquer Asia and Europe before the end of the Middle Ages 🙂

Edited July 28, 2021 by Darnok

[elentari 2,660]

1 hour ago, Drayka said:

Samurai swords are different. They are even more deadly than axes. 1 competent samurai-sword wielder, could probably take down a rhino solo.

Debatable. Deadly perhaps but deadliness is also a consequence of reliability. A sword such as  a katana which can chip easily wouldn't serve you well in a prolonged fight, whereas an axe which has both cutting power and piercing power (for example penetrating an animal's skull) has more reliability. This assuming all things being equal and having the same steel quality, fighter competency, etc. 

 

Having a "glass cannon" blade that bends, breaks, chips, loses its edge after a few uses but does a lot of dmg isn't helpful in RL. 

 

Historical evidence suggests that swords, albeit a symbol of the medieval era, were actually the minority weapons used in skirmishes and battlefields. Simply because where were expensive to make and were more of a status symbol such as a Lamborghini today, whereas other weapons such as spears, axes, hammers were easier to make and use. If you ever study longsword techniques, most of them revolved around having a plate armour to protect you or at least mailed gloves to have versatility in using a longsword. 

 

Personally if I'd add anything to Wurm, I'd add the gambeson / akkaton as armor / padding since wearing plate over nothing but clothes would be horrible for your skin. 

 

 

Seeing these "leather armor / thongs" monstrosities in video games really annoys me. I know they're done for balancing's sake but ya know what game actually did it right?

Kingdom Come Deliverance. At least there you actually have different armors with stats closer to realism than "I can pvp in 1 cm thin leather armor and survive an axe to the sternum in it, hurr durr"... Yeah I know these are childish gripes and wurm is a fantasy game... 

 

Game was better when most people were wearing plate / chain for pvp purposes since realistically those were the culmination of medieval warfare technology. Were they expensive to make and maintain? Yes. But having a heavy infantry frontline on a battlefield was a game changer. 

 

Then again Wurm somehow decides that our max speed in plate is 12 km/ph although it was been debunked for a long time how light plate was and how easy it was to move in it. People have a lot of misconceptions. 

7 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Aye, realism in a depiction of a dragon slaying is a fraught concept.

 

Realistically, most of us would be eaten, squashed, burnt alive and the remaining 10% of survivors might win the fight if the dragon has broken wings and is slowly dying of blood loss. 

 

But yeah. Dragon fights are fantasy realm and every writer makes up the rules. Personally I prefer dragons in fantasy books that are rare, frightening and deadly and can wipe out an entire city . 

 

 

[elentari 2,660]

2 minutes ago, Darnok said:

For hundreds of years, Japan has fought only civil wars, their weapons and armor were more oriented towards honor fighting t

 

"honor fighting" is an oxymoron in warfare.  The one who employs so called "dirty tricks" will tend to be the victor.

British giving smallpox blankets to indians. 

Achaeans using the trojan horse. 

The spanish using gunpowder weapons vs the aztecs. 

Using submarines to destroy commercial ships. 

Using toxic gas in trenches.

Information warfare used today.

The list can go on ad infinitum but the point is there's no culture that will shy back from using an advantage in warfare, no matter how atrocious it is. 

 

Japanese daimyos had absolutely no issue in using firearms, and fell back to sword/spear tactics when they ran out of gunpowder or ammo. 

The concept of "honor" in japanese culture has an entirely different definition from the western concept of honor, perhaps that is why Japan didn't ratify  the Geneva Convention prior to WW2 and were butchers when it came to treating their prisoners and /or chinese civilians. 

 

Japanese were practical like any culture.  Honor was a thing meant for dueling or fights with an established set of rules. 

Also the japanese were "defeated" by europeans precisely due to the isolationist mentality Japan had for centuries. They were incredibly xenophobic to the point of executing foreigners. They lived in a time bubble, barely evolving technologically until the first european man-o-wars showed up at their doorstep, which made them reconsider their policy of sticking their head in the sand and pretending the world didn't exist. 

[Darnok 203]

10 minutes ago, elentari said:

 

"honor fighting" is an oxymoron in warfare. 

 

I didn't said they were using swords in battles only in duels, where you had to fight according to the rules, because if not the emperor, even after victorious fight, would have you and your whole family... well 😉

[Drayka 485]

15 minutes ago, elentari said:

Debatable. Deadly perhaps but deadliness is also a consequence of reliability. A sword such as  a katana which can chip easily wouldn't serve you well in a prolonged fight, whereas an axe which has both cutting power and piercing power (for example penetrating an animal's skull) has more reliability. This assuming all things being equal and having the same steel quality, fighter competency, etc. 

Apologies, I was thinking of modern blades, if such things were still made for fighting. I was trying to not be too derisory of all instances of the word 'sword'.

 

I am GUESSING, that a fit, healthy, modern 'hunter' with an obsession for solo fighting techniques, an expensive modern blade, and a decent understanding of big game and rhinos specifically - available from documentaries and first-hand experience - and zero respect for conservation, etc. etc.. could probably take down a full-grown rhino solo, without resorting to a gun.

 

Rhinos can kill a truck easily, but could never in a million billion tries kill a healthy gazelle. Humans can't be as good as gazelle, but they wouldn't need to be that good to be more agile than a rhino at the critical moment. Mostly it's about not doing something incredibly stupid that gets you killed.

 

Prolonged fight though? Minimum 2 tactically proficient slicing swordstrikes to kill it, without undue risk to self.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

32 minutes ago, Drayka said:

Samurai swords are different. They are even more deadly than axes.

Actually, katana were sometimes mass produced and of indifferent quality.  There are not particularly good at chopping/cleaving and okay at thrusting; their real excellence is in a drawing slice.  They could indeed be crazy sharp, but could also be brittle.

A decently profiled and sharpened thrusting blade, even of rubbish quality metal, will go through skin and other soft tissue with almost no resistance at least once.   Swords are more reliably stabby than cutty.  Against armour it was more likely for a point to thrust through than for a slash or chop to cut through - it's about the amount of armour that has to be cut/punctured (which is why with arrows it's broadheads for hunting and bodkins for battle).  A similar consideration is likely for scales or pachyderm skin.  A slash could be large, but still superficial.  A thrusting tip could skate over a scale or expanse of tough skin but if the tip lodges in a seam or crevice it has nowhere to go but straight in.  For any animal, a thrust into any one of several organs will mean rapid weakening and then the lights are out for good.  "To the hilt" is a saying for good reason. 

50 minutes ago, Darnok said:

With swords and axes? How? I can't even imagine that

Your imagination is not my problem.

[Drayka 485]

44 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

Actually, katana were sometimes mass produced and of indifferent quality.  There are not particularly good at chopping/cleaving and okay at thrusting; their real excellence is in a drawing slice.  They could indeed be crazy sharp, but could also be brittle.

The tactics I was imagining might work do not include stabbing with any sword. Tactical draw-slash with a sharp blade with the reach of a Samurai sword would seem to be the most effective, but requires precision and agility. Axe for cleaving damage, can be a lot more effective than most historians will admit. Weapon of choice for uncoordinated damage dealers, once the animal is injured, if you don't care about harvesting meat or hide and merely want it dead. And a boar spear should work quite nicely against a rhino - same technique as boar hunting, just a much bigger animal. Thankfully less intelligent, and probably far easier to convince therefore that it has taken critical damage and needs to keel over and die already. RL boars are nasty.

[Chihuahua 82]

@Finnnis right

[Nomadikhan 2,196]

Let’s get Alice and Molle systems too and pouches!

[Darnok 203]

On 7/27/2021 at 12:51 AM, Drayka said:

With a rod, dear Henry, a rod.

Edit: Song reference: Harry Belafonte - There's a Hole in the Bucket - YouTube

 

Hubris. It's not merely coding skill you lack. ANYONE with ALL the required skills for absolute success, could fix the entire world tomorrow. NONE of us have them all.

 

After adding the character arming limitation and the paper-rock-scissors mechanics for PvE, it is not a problem for 1000 players who would like to explore such large areas as Wurm offers and only fight in PvE, especially since after changes in combat it is a bit more complicated (and more interesting at same time) mini-game than before.

[Jore 338]

On 7/26/2021 at 5:32 PM, Darnok said:

 

If I had proper skills this server would have 1000 more players than WO right now 🙂

Yeah, like the 10 year old saying they'd just solve world hunger if they had a billion dollars

Horribly delusional

[Brattygirl 918]

On 7/26/2021 at 5:32 PM, Darnok said:

If I had proper skills this server would have 1000 more players than WO right now 🙂

 

So go and do that. Prove us all wrong.