Darnok

Darnok's gameplay and UX suggestions

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

The point was that the item changes what's ideal, and while you got iron being right, you're still mostly wrong

Adding "goblin metal" is another weird idea for "balancing" that does nothing but create the same boring end result metal characteristics tried to introduce, which was to try and spice up the kind of metals you'd use for what, you've just homogenize the entire thing but create a weird variation that would make reimp orders a nightmare to sort out

 

I don't know if this would be boring, goblin metal could only be obtained by hunting.

There could be stronger NPCs that would drop other types of metals with other properties.

 

Quote

Farming is something that's easy to see as open for expansion given it starts at "seed", then "rake" and ends in "harvest" and it's not something I've given massive amounts of thought to, but things like fertilizer could be a more interesting proposal

 

I thought about it too, but if I think about adding fertilizer to each tile separately and then using the rake several times, I want to rage quit.
But if there was such a field as I described it, and you would only add the fertilizer to entire field containing many tiles of crops in total amount calculated in kg of ferilizer, it would be more interesting and it would reduce the repeatability.

 

Quote

If you don't see a problem with items people are long attached to, being suddenly unable to be imped past 50 or 60QL, then you're already so far gone this whole chat is pointless.

 

But by using 100ql metal/wood you could still make an item that you would use for 10 years. However, it would take longer to reach 100ql than it is now and you would have to get rid of many items along the way.

 

Quote

And for that final part, there's no nice way to say this so I'm going to be very, very blunt.

Nobody expects anything good from your threads, given they've all been dunked and dabbed on more than any thread I've ever seen in my entire time here. None of them have given a reasonable argument or proposal for improving aspects of the game you see as an issue, they just paint a picture of questionable intent.

 

 

That is your opinion and as it is with opinions, it cannot go beyond your experience and what is according to you correct or wrong.

Edited by Darnok

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27 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

This isn't balance though. This is just inconvenience. You are trying to make a game that already takes up time, take up that much more time. There are disadvantages to better armor. It may not be physical disadvantages. But for starters it is not something obtained in a day or two. It takes many slayings to get the resources needed to craft a drake and scale set. Not only that but it also takes a lot of skill to even consider crafting one, and if you fail to make a piece and loose some of that material, then it takes even more time to gather more mats. So now what you are saying is the set of armor that took months, maybe even years to get (since a lot of these slayings are done privately and sold at a very expensive rate), are now stuck with being hindered wearing the armor. Also horse speed is already affected by the character's weight. Which is something you would know if you "PLAYED THE GAME"

 

And how do you want to create a balance if not by adding inconvenience to solutions that already have big advantages?

 

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3 hours ago, Madnath said:

please just find a different game at this point

 

what is "tactical" about any of this? it's just half baked ideas that were either already removed or do nothing to improve gameplay or player experience

 

 

 


According to the wiki

"Tactical (in the military context) refers to the lowest level of military strategy, usually consisting of individual combatant or small unit actions."

 

I consider the choice of weaponry before combat and the inability to change it during combat a tactical decision.

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1 hour ago, Darnok said:

 

I don't know if this would be boring, goblin metal could only be obtained by hunting.

There could be stronger NPCs that would drop other types of metals with other properties.

 

 

I thought about it too, but if I think about adding fertilizer to each tile separately and then using the rake several times, I want to rage quit.
But if there was such a field as I described it, and you would only add the fertilizer to entire field containing many tiles of crops in total amount calculated in kg of ferilizer, it would be more interesting and it would reduce the repeatability.

 

 

But by using 100ql metal/wood you could still make an item that you would use for 10 years. However, it would take longer to reach 100ql than it is now and you would have to get rid of many items along the way.

 

 

That is your opinion and as it is with opinions, it cannot go beyond your experience and what is according to you correct or wrong.

 

Goblin metal is an idea that'd be exhausted within a week with hunting of trolls. And you're already in the point where you're trying to justify your point with even more features that just serve to drive the idea further into the ground.

 

There's different ways to do things like fertilizer, but it's really not something I've dedicated a lot of time to working out how I'd like to see it done.

 

But then again, you're getting to a point where you're no longer removing these items from play, you're making a compromise that already nulifies your suggestion. You're saying we can make the item QL cap go up, which would mean that these items never leave circulation, something you think is an issue.

 

Yes it's my opinion, but the issue is over none of these threads you've taken absolutely 0 feedback about your ideas, how they'd work or factor into the game and you fall into the same pattern where you try and compensate for flaws in your ideas, by throwing more stuff on top, to the point where you'll just get fishing levels of feature creep. Please, stop with the daily threads. A day isn't enough time to bake these kind of ideas you're putting forward. Think about them in more depth. Try and reach a point where the idea can conclude, without there being obvious and glaring flaws and loopholes that render them fuctionally worthless.

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1 hour ago, Darnok said:


According to the wiki

"Tactical (in the military context) refers to the lowest level of military strategy, usually consisting of individual combatant or small unit actions."

 

I consider the choice of weaponry before combat and the inability to change it during combat a tactical decision.

ah yes

going out with my single weapon still because you've done nothing but made function processes a bit more dreadful early on

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1 hour ago, Darnok said:

And how do you want to create a balance if not by adding inconvenience to solutions that already have big advantages?

 

Have you seen pvp videos from chaos? Not everyone is in scale sets smashing down on people in cloth. A lot of the videos I have seen, and the few encounters I have had while on Chaos. Most people do not wear scale. Since it is a very big loss if you die and loose it. Yeah there is a lot of drake. I know while I was with TC plain leather was the meta at the time. Something to do with the frost spell. So I was running around in a cheap 90ql set of leather armor. Not an expensive 3g+ set of scale. This is something that would just inconvenience the players on the PVE servers.

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Posted (edited)

 

44 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

Goblin metal is an idea that'd be exhausted within a week with hunting of trolls. And you're already in the point where you're trying to justify your point with even more features that just serve to drive the idea further into the ground.

 

Just like idea that there is 100ql max and game over? It will also be exhausted eventually, and all you can do is delay reaching that level over time.

Although goblin metal would delay this process in such a way that it would expand metal items production line and you would need not only miners but hunters as well, something I wrote about in other threads, so that different production lines, especially production of metal objects should also depend on other branches and seasonal resources.

 

 

Quote

 

But then again, you're getting to a point where you're no longer removing these items from play, you're making a compromise that already nulifies your suggestion. You're saying we can make the item QL cap go up, which would mean that these items never leave circulation, something you think is an issue.

 

So a system with max 100ql for materials and items is bad? And is not suitable for a game that is going to be played for years? But that's not my idea.

 

My ideas were:

- a new map for every year, because I see where limit 100ql goes and here we are 1 year after Melody start and there are items near 100ql

OR

- my original idea to fix economy was to remove ability to "repair" of items, which would solve the problem once and for all and for each stage of the game.

 

But few people have criticized both ideas, so I have made an alternative that IN MY OPINION is worse than the original idea because it is a compromise, but if this idea is still bad, what would be good then?

 

Quote

 

Yes it's my opinion, but the issue is over none of these threads you've taken absolutely 0 feedback about your ideas, how they'd work or factor into the game and you fall into the same pattern where you try and compensate for flaws in your ideas, by throwing more stuff on top, to the point where you'll just get fishing levels of feature creep. Please, stop with the daily threads. A day isn't enough time to bake these kind of ideas you're putting forward. Think about them in more depth. Try and reach a point where the idea can conclude, without there being obvious and glaring flaws and loopholes that render them fuctionally worthless.

 

Don't you see a problem in the fact that skills are a flat list that does not allow you to further develop your skills? When you reach 100 it's over, you can't level any more, you can only produce items from a given branch and pick different skill for leveling up. Whatever I propose, I can only postpone the process of reaching the state where the message "game over you won" should appear.

 

At this point and with this 100 max level limitation the only thing you can do is to expand game with more resources, materials and items so that the player does not bore himself to death repeating the same thing over and over again, but something like that requires a lot of work of graphic designers and programmers, because they will have to invent ever stronger weapons, armor and monsters, and finally game would have to combine different skills, from this flat skill list as I did, by suggesting adding an average requirement of two (or more in future) different skills for skill required for improvement of item, reason for this is only to delay the end of character development and production of strongest armor or weapon.

 

The alternative is to create new maps and force players to start over every year or two, I have no other ideas, if you have better ones, I'll be happy to read them.

 

Edited by Darnok

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6 minutes ago, Darnok said:

When you reach 100 it's over, you can't level any more, you can only produce items from a given branch and pick different skill for leveling up

With the insane amount of time and effort it takes to hit true 100 in one skill and the amount of skills there are in Wurm Online, I don't think anyone sees this as a problem.

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45 minutes ago, Madnath said:

ah yes

going out with my single weapon still because you've done nothing but made function processes a bit more dreadful early on

 

Fact that everyone is running with just one weapon is another example that this game needs some more tactical thinking.

But for it to make sense to balance weapons and armor, you need to limit it's use, because why introduce the paper-scissors-rock mechanic, if each player can have all three items in his inventory and the one who has the higher skill or who drags them faster from one window to another always win? Not to mention the fact that PvE lacks the paper-scissors-rock mechanics and if this would be combined with the limitation to the amount of weapons you can arm yourself before combat, it would start to get interesting?

 

You couldn't hunt down every NPC just waving the biggest metal weapon + aggressive style.

 

You would have to adapt the weapon to the type of armor of the opponent, and the fact that you had a limited amount of weapons with you would be an additional difficulty, and you would also need to have the appropriate skills to fight with various types of weapons or you would have to give up hunting some NPCs, which would slightly extend the path to the end game for a PvE hunters.

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18 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

 

Just like idea that there is 100ql max and game over? It will also be exhausted eventually, and all you can do is delay reaching that level over time.

Although goblin metal would delay this process in such a way that it would expand metal items production line and you would need not only miners but hunters as well, something I wrote about in other threads, so that different production lines, especially production of metal objects should also depend on other branches and seasonal resources.

 

 

 

So a system with max 100ql for materials and items is bad? And is not suitable for a game that is going to be played for years? But that's not my idea.

 

My ideas were:

- a new map for every year, because I see where limit 100ql goes and here we are 1 year after Melody start and there are items near 100ql

OR

- my original idea to fix economy was to remove ability to "repair" of items, which would solve the problem once and for all and for each stage of the game.

 

But few people have criticized both ideas, so I have made an alternative that IN MY OPINION is worse than the original idea because it is a compromise, but if this idea is still bad, what would be good then?

 

 

Don't you see a problem in the fact that skills are a flat list that does not allow you to further develop your skills? When you reach 100 it's over, you can't level any more, you can only produce items from a given branch and pick different skill for leveling up. Whatever I propose, I can only postpone the process of reaching the state where the message "game over you won" should appear.

 

At this point and with this 100 max level limitation the only thing you can do is to expand game with more resources, materials and items so that the player does not bore himself to death repeating the same thing over and over again, but something like that requires a lot of work of graphic designers and programmers, because they will have to invent ever stronger weapons, armor and monsters, and finally game would have to combine different skills, from this flat skill list as I did, by suggesting adding an average requirement of two (or more in future) different skills for skill required for improvement of item, reason for this is only to delay the end of character development and production of strongest armor or weapon.

 

The alternative is to create new maps and force players to start over every year or two, I have no other ideas, if you have better ones, I'll be happy to read them.

 

 

I'll leave it at this.

Most of what you say are an issue, are things you've not only likely never done yourself, but are vastly underestimating. 100 skills aren't things you work towards and say "game over", you usually have a reason to go that high. I've got 3 100 skills, and I'd like more. Just because you see the 100 skill limit as a flat quit point, doesn't mean that's really the case. Plenty of people out there would love for peopel with 100 skill to do their imp work for them.

 

You're reducing the actual scope of the game to fit a suggestion that's already been battered to death over two pages.

At this point, we've all understood and accepted that at this point, a map and skill reset, moving into that pattern, would most likely be the final bullet in the head of the game that'd finally drive everyone away. The long term damage that was hard to consider was already done long ago. The Rolf game concept was always kinda flawed, but the game kept ticking on anyway.

 

The overall change you want to proposition here would need to be much more widely considered. How would this affect priests, given the now disposable-but-not-really-it's-still-not-concrete nature of weapons, tools ect? How does this affect gameplay? Crafting of items? Will this drive people away? Will it heal things? Is it more complicated than it needs to be?

 

At this point, it's been seen over a handful of threads you're content to make suggestions that are napkin scribbles at best, and you're happy to push these out nearly daily, burying other things that go in here, and to do little, if nothing with feedback given, no matter how harsh or polite.

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10 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Fact that everyone is running with just one weapon is another example that this game needs some more tactical thinking.

But for it to make sense to balance weapons and armor, you need to limit it's use, because why introduce the paper-scissors-rock mechanic, if each player can have all three items in his inventory and the one who has the higher skill or who drags them faster from one window to another always win? Not to mention the fact that PvE lacks the paper-scissors-rock mechanics and if this would be combined with the limitation to the amount of weapons you can arm yourself before combat, it would start to get interesting?

 

You couldn't hunt down every NPC just waving the biggest metal weapon + aggressive style.

 

You would have to adapt the weapon to the type of armor of the opponent, and the fact that you had a limited amount of weapons with you would be an additional difficulty, and you would also need to have the appropriate skills to fight with various types of weapons or you would have to give up hunting some NPCs, which would slightly extend the path to the end game for a PvE hunters.

can you just go find a different game already

or mod WU if you think your ideas and systems would work so well, would love to see another dead server among the list

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11 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Fact that everyone is running with just one weapon is another example that this game needs some more tactical thinking.

But for it to make sense to balance weapons and armor, you need to limit it's use, because why introduce the paper-scissors-rock mechanic, if each player can have all three items in his inventory and the one who has the higher skill or who drags them faster from one window to another always win? Not to mention the fact that PvE lacks the paper-scissors-rock mechanics and if this would be combined with the limitation to the amount of weapons you can arm yourself before combat, it would start to get interesting?

 

You couldn't hunt down every NPC just waving the biggest metal weapon + aggressive style.

 

You would have to adapt the weapon to the type of armor of the opponent, and the fact that you had a limited amount of weapons with you would be an additional difficulty, and you would also need to have the appropriate skills to fight with various types of weapons or you would have to give up hunting some NPCs, which would slightly extend the path to the end game for a PvE hunters.

 

Consider that approach.

Now go try fishing, and how people think and react to it. Then come back and say this is a gameplay style you want to enforce. It'll sink faster than you can blink.

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11 minutes ago, neopherus said:

 

With the insane amount of time and effort it takes to hit true 100 in one skill and the amount of skills there are in Wurm Online, I don't think anyone sees this as a problem.

 

Ok, but the fact that it takes so much time to get one skill at 100 has the negative effect of having to repeat the same activity a lot of times.
And the fact that in the case of armor it is 1 or 2 sets and that's it. All the time you can produce the same thing, with the same materials and the same method, just a little stronger is not very interesting after month or two.

Therefore, I suggest adding a little more complexity, but reducing the repetition a bit.

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1 minute ago, Darnok said:

 

Ok, but the fact that it takes so much time to get one skill at 100 has the negative effect of having to repeat the same activity a lot of times.
And the fact that in the case of armor it is 1 or 2 sets and that's it. All the time you can produce the same thing, with the same materials and the same method, just a little stronger is not very interesting after month or two.

Therefore, I suggest adding a little more complexity, but reducing the repetition a bit.

 

But it doesn't have that effect. And that repetitive nature is the exact thing that, well, makes Wurm Wurm.

And there isn't "a case of 1 or 2 armour sets" at all, given I've seen a healthy mix of leather, plate, drake and scale at every gathering I've been too given some people prefer one over the other.

You've done nothing to address repetition. The fact earlier in the thread you've promoted your idea as a surefire way to improve Wurm despite absolutely nobody liking anything in there outside of the gem stuff speaks volumes.

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3 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Ok, but the fact that it takes so much time to get one skill at 100 has the negative effect of having to repeat the same activity a lot of times.
And the fact that in the case of armor it is 1 or 2 sets and that's it. All the time you can produce the same thing, with the same materials and the same method, just a little stronger is not very interesting after month or two.

Therefore, I suggest adding a little more complexity, but reducing the repetition a bit.

 

Most of the players who remain in Wurm Online don't mind the repetition. I myself stepped out of the so called portal 3859 days ago. I'm still here, working on carpentry of any kind.

If you want higher skillgain, Wurm Unlimited has that covered.

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To be perfectly honest Darnok, though I have never been in your shoes, I've been in a pair none too dissimilar from my personal perspective. There are plenty of things that I see others say that I judge will have zero impact, or will have the opposite effect of what they intend.

 

I doubt you'll take up this offer, as I would not have all those years ago - for various reasons - but you aren't me so I'll make the offer: Feel free to spam my forum inbox with your thoughts and suggestions for as long as you like. Not because I'm in a position to implement your changes, but because I'll listen, try to give you targeted feedback, catch the most obvious errors, and because in private conversation I can say things which I doubt you'll take the wrong way, but which would almost certainly wind-up other readers. Think of it as an opportunity simply to have a beta reader before posting publicly. This does not in any way replace or diminish your right to post in the suggestions forum, the same as everyone else. Nor does it guarantee that your ideas will become popular, even with me. Nor that we will become friends. I am okay with you continuing posting as you have done, or wandering off to another community. But if you want my time and attention, the offer is there.

 

Joining the Wurm community was the best decision I ever made, and it has and continues to dramatically change my life for the better. It has never become any less challenging for me than the first week of play, but the challenge for me has evolved over time as I have evolved. I never knew what I stood to gain before I gained it, but I have zero regrets in investing the countless hours into this game that I have.

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5 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

You're reducing the actual scope of the game to fit a suggestion that's already been battered to death over two pages.

At this point, we've all understood and accepted that at this point, a map and skill reset, moving into that pattern, would most likely be the final bullet in the head of the game that'd finally drive everyone away. The long term damage that was hard to consider was already done long ago. The Rolf game concept was always kinda flawed, but the game kept ticking on anyway.

 

I do not agree with this, in my opinion many players would return to game just to see start of each map and would play for as long as they enjoy it, because starting over and discovering new maps gives something interesting and in my opinion this is the core of this game - exploration, not getting higher and higher or collecting animals and clicking one button regardless of whether you select a tile with a field or hover over an item to improve.

 

Ok, you got 3x100, but for some players the repetition needed to level up 1 skill at level of 50-60 is too high and as the steam experiment showed a year ago, there are more players like that than like you.

You can explain to yourself that they have to force themselves and like what you like, but you will not convince them to do so, so either Wurm will make some compromises or there will be only 200 players left, which I doubt will be enough to pay for the further development of the game.

 

5 minutes ago, Madnath said:

The overall change you want to proposition here would need to be much more widely considered. How would this affect priests, given the now disposable-but-not-really-it's-still-not-concrete nature of weapons, tools ect? How does this affect gameplay? Crafting of items? Will this drive people away? Will it heal things? Is it more complicated than it needs to be?

 

But what exactly? New map every year? Removal of the ability to repair items? Or Max QL?

In my opinion, after removing ability to repair items, or addition of max QL would work incearing demand for everything (tools, weapons and armors).

Tools, weapons and armors would become consumable goods and there is still demand for consumable goods in Wurm, even in late game, right?

There would also be an increased need to cast spells on items, so everybody would have more work to do, even priests.

I agree with what you wrote earlier that the max QL at some point would run out and stop working once people would start making 100ql items.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

But it doesn't have that effect. And that repetitive nature is the exact thing that, well, makes Wurm Wurm.

And there isn't "a case of 1 or 2 armour sets" at all, given I've seen a healthy mix of leather, plate, drake and scale at every gathering I've been too given some people prefer one over the other.

You've done nothing to address repetition. The fact earlier in the thread you've promoted your idea as a surefire way to improve Wurm despite absolutely nobody liking anything in there outside of the gem stuff speaks volumes.

 

My point is that when choosing a profession, e.g. chain armor smith, you are limited to one armor, which you produce from the same material (iron) and with the same tools from level 1 to 100.

In another thread, I wrote various suggestions on how to expand this process on different levels, in this thread I am suggesting what other armors could exist and how to make their production harder (how to delay process of making them so that players cannot create them too early at a high ql level).


As for repetitions

 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

Consider that approach.

Now go try fishing, and how people think and react to it. Then come back and say this is a gameplay style you want to enforce. It'll sink faster than you can blink.

 

Fishing with fishnet is terrible, what do you mean?

Edited by Darnok

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49 minutes ago, Jore said:

can you just go find a different game already

or mod WU if you think your ideas and systems would work so well, would love to see another dead server among the list

 

If I had proper skills this server would have 1000 more players than WO right now 🙂

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At this point I've accepted this must be a troll

 

4kkr2uU.png

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it's pointless to read or argue.. stuff's always not even connecting to wurm world.. but he doesn't care

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darnok said:

Fishing with fishnet is terrible, what do you mean?

With a rod, dear Henry, a rod.

Edit: Song reference: Harry Belafonte - There's a Hole in the Bucket - YouTube

 

1 hour ago, Darnok said:

If I had proper skills this server would have 1000 more players than WO right now 🙂

Hubris. It's not merely coding skill you lack. ANYONE with ALL the required skills for absolute success, could fix the entire world tomorrow. NONE of us have them all.

Edited by Drayka

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15 minutes ago, Finnn said:

it's pointless to read or argue.. stuff's always not even connecting to wurm world.. but he doesn't care

Counter-productive to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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3 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

If I had proper skills this server would have 1000 more players than WO right now 🙂

You could easily demonstrate this.  As I have suggested multiple times, quite seriously, you could set up a WU server that is at least an approximation of the things that you suggest - it has plug in mods galore, and a community that writes more mods.  You could engage someone (I don't mean hire, I mean engage as in get them onboard) with the skills to create the stuff that currently has no WU analog. Launch it. 

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