Darnok's gameplay and UX suggestions

[Ecrir 887]

So including deed upkeep, that would be like 20 skills I could get faster timers on? But why would I want faster timers? I most cases it's bad for skill gain, so looking long term you'd never want this. You're better off using a specific WoA tool when you want faster timers, so you have control over when they are and aren't faster.

[Darnok 201]

2 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

So including deed upkeep, that would be like 20 skills I could get faster timers on? But why would I want faster timers? I most cases it's bad for skill gain, so looking long term you'd never want this. You're better off using a specific WoA tool when you want faster timers, so you have control over when they are and aren't faster.

 

Faster timer, but not lower skill gain.

[Drayka 485]

4 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

I don't buy it.  Even in PVP victory is about victory, not about the skills you get from victory.  There is a fundamental misunderstanding of which is the cart and which is the horse.

If this was accurate in all cases, then there wouldn't be attempts to create rules to prevent alt-farming for skill. Which personally I see as wanton blindness by authority (including peer authority), since 'cheating' tends to exist because of some seemingly unresolvable abstract-poverty, and adding more tyranny to the situation only increases that motivation to alleviate abstract-poverty by whatever means are available.

 

13 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

The fact is I am arguing for a spectrum of cultural approaches to the game. While in return I am being told that no such spectrum exists.  What we keep getting are suggestions that would suit exactly one approach to the game, Darnok's. 

 

I have commented in good faith, as I try to do with any suggestion, but the outright dismissive rejection of any feedback except unqualified support has me convinced that the good faith is only flowing one way. 

The best approach I have ever personally found, is to assume a genetic disability. It doesn't matter whether it exists or not - factual accuracy - as long as you never bear public false witness that another person has such a disability. Mutual respect is something you lead by example in, and that includes 'disabilities' that science hasn't even classified as such yet. And it is exhausting, but it is morally worth-it, if you believe in that ideology. Working with low-functioning adults IS a counter-intuitive blessing to their social-circle. And the 'fantasy' of doing so, yields the same benefit.

 

My best-friend IRL prefers "they're just kids", because he thinks of himself as a perpetual child. It does seem that this psychological hack is most effective, when matched to a common ground of condemnation. For me, that's genetic disability, so that works best for me personally.

[Drayka 485]

3 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Faster timer, but not lower skill gain.

I think you'll do better asking for the journey to maximum skill to be more fulfilling an experience, rather than asking for the journey to be reduced in length.

 

Wurm is biased to be an infinite game, on an account-by-account basis. It's not a complete the entire game in X-timeframe competition.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

24 minutes ago, Drayka said:

The best approach I have ever personally found, is to assume a genetic disability. It doesn't matter whether it exists or not - factual accuracy - as long as you never bear public false witness that another person has such a disability. Mutual respect is something you lead by example in, and that includes 'disabilities' that science hasn't even classified as such yet. And it is exhausting, but it is morally worth-it, if you believe in that ideology. Working with low-functioning adults IS a counter-intuitive blessing to their social-circle. And the 'fantasy' of doing so, yields the same benefit

I have actually deleted some speculation before posting comments to avoid exactly that kind of possible false witness.  BUT, would not characterize text based internet conversations as low-functioning.  Believe me, I know low-functioning.  

[Drayka 485]

21 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

I have actually deleted some speculation before posting comments to avoid exactly that kind of possible false witness.  BUT, would not characterize text based internet conversations as low-functioning.  Believe me, I know low-functioning.  

 

There's different definitions of low-functioning depending on the expectations of functionality. For example, in my specific case, I struggled to learn basic social cues and graces the majority of individuals learn to at least MIMIC, by the time they are ~7 years old. An oversimplified description of it would be high-IQ, low-EQ.

 

My point being, that if anyone seems to lack a core human skill, just pretend for the sake of everyone's low-stress levels, that they are genetically inhibited or totally incapable of developing that skill. That way, it's hard for them to fail to live up to your expectations, and easy for them to unexpectedly exceed them. Getting to a place where you are completely calm, is a strong foundation for a deliberate and whimsical act of challenge, without setting anyone (including yourself) up to fail.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Drayka

[Darnok 201]

5 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

<sigh>  I at least can recognize that your point of view exists.  It seems I cannot expect the same in return.

 

You have no choice, you have no ability to erase my posts, although judging by some of the attacks on me, many would like to be able to do so.

 

 

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Most of your post is insulting and insinuating that I am in some fashion misrepresenting my approach to and experience of Wurm.   I am a citizen of Harvestmoon, go ask anyone in the alliance about TheTrickster - oh, you don't play so you can't.  Well, if you won't take my word for it at least have the candour to openly say you you think I am lying and then we can deal with that.

 

True, one of the scenarios I consider is that many critics are lying simply to win an argument in a discussion. After all, you have nothing else but your opinions and you put your opinions against my opinion. If you valued other people's opinions as much as your own, there wouldn't be all this criticism, but some want to force everyone to play according to their style of play, and you like to use argumentum ad populum or argumentum ad verecundiam.

 

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I do not play Wurm to compete with anyone.  See my previous point.

 

So what are you doing here? If you are not competing, you cut out half of the MMO game.

 

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I would say your opinion on why people build stone walls is wide of the mark.  I built stone walls to keep my horses from wandering when I was trying my hand at breeding them.  Again, go look at those threads.  

 

Don't you think building these walls in PvE is a waste of time and resources? A cheaper solution is an ordinary wooden fence, which will not be destroyed in PvE anyway?

 

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I tried to engage.  I tried to appreciate where you are coming from and explain where I am coming from.  The response is a simple repetition of other comments you have made and seems to lack any real reflection on what I wrote at all.  

 

I think you have fundamentally failed to grasp the concept of a sandbox game and from that failure stems your dissatisfaction and these maladroit suggestions.  I think you have also failed to grasp that people other than you can have valid points of view other than yours.  Either that or these are some kind of elaborate trolling.  If you want anyone to take your suggestions as anything other than a nuisance, then you need to actually engage rather than rebuff and insult.

 

You got it wrong, I respect other people opinions and I don't fight them on the forum. You have a problem with respecting that there is a player who would like Wurm to develop in a different direction. In psychology, something like this is called the mirror effect.

And again you people are talking more about "what should I do and how" instead of ideas, so much for respecting different ideas 🙂

Edited July 16, 2021 by Darnok

[Drayka 485]

9 hours ago, Darnok said:

So what are you doing here? If you are not competing, you cut out half of the MMO game.

 

PvE culture is fiscal and/or casual. Rolf had to cut out half of 'the game' to allow PvE to come into existence by popular demand. Most of those who play Wurm have never experienced anything of the full-game the creator originally created. It doesn't really exist anywhere anymore. Wurm evolved despite its creator's original intention. It takes months if not years to understand how WO still all fits together, and is still interdependent, despite having deviated vastly from its roots.

[Ecrir 887]

On 7/16/2021 at 4:09 PM, Darnok said:

 

Faster timer, but not lower skill gain.

 

That's not how Wurm works. Skill gain is impacted by the length of the timer (up to a certain point). A shorter timer is thus less skill gain per action, but the skill gain per minute mostly doesn't change. Less skill gain per action means more actions, which means consuming more resources, etc, in order to gain the same amount of skill.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Ecrir

[Darnok 201]

11 hours ago, Ecrir said:

 

That's not how Wurm works. Skill gain is impacted by the length of the timer (up to a certain point). A shorter timer is thus less skill gain per action, but the skill gain per minute mostly doesn't change. Less skill gain per action means more actions, which means consuming more resources, etc, in order to gain the same amount of skill.

 

I know, I know, but you have spells that give you faster action and more skill gain at same time, so what is the problem?

[Ecrir 887]

59 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

I know, I know, but you have spells that give you faster action and more skill gain at same time, so what is the problem?

 

An example:

6 actions in one minute, each gives .1 skill, for a total of .6

 

Faster timer (so like WoA):

9 actions in one minute, each gives .75 skill, for a total of .6.

 

Faster timer, but not lower skill gain (so what you suggest, like BotD):

9 actions in one minute, each gives .1 skill, for a total of 0.9

 

more skill gain, same timers (so like CoC)

6 actions in one minute, each gives .15 skill, for a total of 0.9

 

 

So there's your problem, those spells which give faster action timer and skill gain at the same time actually increase the amount of skill you gain per minute. By saying it should be faster timers without lowered skill gain per action you are effectively saying that it should be faster timers with increased skill gain, and your suggestion doesn't even mentioned increased skill gain in it anywhere.

[Darnok 201]

11 hours ago, Ecrir said:

 

An example:

6 actions in one minute, each gives .1 skill, for a total of .6

 

Faster timer (so like WoA):

9 actions in one minute, each gives .75 skill, for a total of .6.

 

Faster timer, but not lower skill gain (so what you suggest, like BotD):

9 actions in one minute, each gives .1 skill, for a total of 0.9

 

more skill gain, same timers (so like CoC)

6 actions in one minute, each gives .15 skill, for a total of 0.9

 

 

So there's your problem, those spells which give faster action timer and skill gain at the same time actually increase the amount of skill you gain per minute. By saying it should be faster timers without lowered skill gain per action you are effectively saying that it should be faster timers with increased skill gain, and your suggestion doesn't even mentioned increased skill gain in it anywhere.

 

Ahh, so this is only communication issue, I mean I was writing about "bonus" and cutting down both timers and gain wouldn't make anything better, so I thought it is all clear what I have in mind.

[Drayka 485]

1 hour ago, Darnok said:

so I thought it is all clear what I have in mind.

 

I struggle with that a lot. I think I have made it all clear, only to find out, once again, that no-one really understands what I'm trying to say. 

 

Having someone seem to understand me is cause for wild celebration - usually very short-lived because I was mistaken and employing wishful thinking.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

3 hours ago, Drayka said:

Having someone seem to understand me is cause for wild celebration - usually very short-lived because I was mistaken and employing wishful thinking.

 

I am giving serious thought to changing my signature to this.  🙂

[Drayka 485]

23 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

I am giving serious thought to changing my signature to this.  🙂

 

If it speaks particularly to you, feel free. 🙂 I've enjoyed re-reading your current signature, each post I've seen it on.

[Brattygirl 918]

So I have a question. What is to prevent a player from abusing this system? If a free account is allowed to have 2 skills that can go past 20, then who is to say people don't just keep making free accounts? Grind up one to 90 blacksmithing and 90 weaponsmithing, another to 90 cloth tailoring and 90 Leather working, etc etc. What would be the point in paying for premium if you can just do that? 

[Darnok 201]

20 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

So I have a question. What is to prevent a player from abusing this system? If a free account is allowed to have 2 skills that can go past 20, then who is to say people don't just keep making free accounts? Grind up one to 90 blacksmithing and 90 weaponsmithing, another to 90 cloth tailoring and 90 Leather working, etc etc. What would be the point in paying for premium if you can just do that? 

 

Time and productivity, Premium would perform more actions per hour and get more skill gain than free account.

And to be able to level up more than 2 skills you have to buy a deed for each of these free alts.

 

It seems to me that even if some players gave up premium, they would still spend the same amount of money on the upkeep of their big deed, which would provide them with additional titles/professions without cap.

[Brattygirl 918]

47 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Time and productivity, Premium would perform more actions per hour and get more skill gain than free account.

And to be able to level up more than 2 skills you have to buy a deed for each of these free alts.

 

It seems to me that even if some players gave up premium, they would still spend the same amount of money on the upkeep of their big deed, which would provide them with additional titles/professions without cap.

Not really. If you have 1 small deed. Say a 1s a month deed. And have 10 alts. That would be 20 skills you could grind to 100. And there isn't a limit to the amount of alts a player can have.

[Blazecraze 440]

I am just adding in here that many people are renowned for their 'profession' of choice - like Hvergi as the games go to blacksmith for most things, Stanlee and Siegfried as the go to priests for enchants, I am pretty well known for masonry and my love for brick production, we have people known for their work as chefs for pizza making etc....the concept that there are no current professions is ridiculous. 

I just took a 2-3 month break from the game and returned because I got a discord PM about something looking to buy 40,000 bricks....professions exist, theres just no shitty black and white, hard locked system to lock people to those professions. 

[Madnath 3,113]

2 minutes ago, Blazecraze said:

I am just adding in here that many people are renowned for their 'profession' of choice - like Hvergi as the games go to blacksmith for most things, Stanlee and Siegfried as the go to priests for enchants, I am pretty well known for masonry and my love for brick production, we have people known for their work as chefs for pizza making etc....the concept that there are no current professions is ridiculous. 

I just took a 2-3 month break from the game and returned because I got a discord PM about something looking to buy 40,000 bricks....professions exist, theres just no shitty black and white, hard locked system to lock people to those professions. 

 

Pretty much how I feel about it. We don't need some weird, dumb system to say HEY I DO X THING to have a profession

[Darnok 201]

1 hour ago, brattygirl said:

Not really. If you have 1 small deed. Say a 1s a month deed. And have 10 alts. That would be 20 skills you could grind to 100. And there isn't a limit to the amount of alts a player can have.

 

Ok, go for it, but...

 

you need 1st alt for mining + pickaxe

2nd prospecting + pickaxe

3rd woodcutting + hatchet

4th ship building + (there are few tools for carpenter, so now what?)

5th fine carpentry + (also few useful tools^)

6th blacksmithing + (nope this is not going to work with just 2 skills, but with 4... :-))

 

And in the end, you will need premium to have a character that can exit the deed and kill the spider, so your alt can gather wood outside of deed or you will need character with a large and safe deed and at same time with more professions.

So I don't see point in making 10 alts without deed.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Darnok

[Brattygirl 918]

You only need one deed. And even if you have to make 20 alts. What does it matter. You no longer have to pay any money. This idea is very flawed and could easily be abused. And there is always people that will look for ways to abuse the system.

[Blazecraze 440]

Whats ridiculous is the concept that you won't be strong enough to beat up a spider after working as a miner your entire life, or that you'd need an alt for mining+pickaxe and prospecting+pickaxe as if they both wouldn't be put under the profession 'miner' or something. This really blows and I gotta ask the same question I think ive asked before...

 

Bruh why you be like you are? Actually install and play the game. Why is your account not barred from posting suggestion threads yet? 

[Darnok 201]

30 minutes ago, Blazecraze said:

Whats ridiculous is the concept that you won't be strong enough to beat up a spider after working as a miner your entire life, or that you'd need an alt for mining+pickaxe and prospecting+pickaxe as if they both wouldn't be put under the profession 'miner' or something. This really blows and I gotta ask the same question I think ive asked before...

 

Bruh why you be like you are? Actually install and play the game. Why is your account not barred from posting suggestion threads yet? 

 

You first and read the whole description of the idea from the beginning.

 

Main idea is to let free player to earn his first silver in game by selling for example high ql wood and buy deed or premium for it. If he likes it maybe he will stay in Wurm little longer.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Darnok

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

I suggested something similar to this a while back (set classes with fixed skill combinations that have higher skill caps on free to play and give an affinity-like bonus for regular play).

 

Honestly, wurm does have premium classes already, they're affinities that are randomly awarded/chosen.

 

Sure, such a system means someone could create a pile of alts and never pay for the game.  The thing is, that is a lot of work, switching boxes and generally suffering; a few will do it but the majority won't bother.

 

100% free players are not a waste of server space; indeed they create and bring content to an otherwise dead world.  Wurm relies on its players, and I've seen non-preme newbies make some beautiful things.  They definitely need more freedom if wurm is to ever grow again.