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Ficik

Explorer's Guild - Cadence Map

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On 7/4/2021 at 11:14 PM, Ficik said:

One thing about opt in systems is, that the user should prove that they are the owner of the deed, I doubt this is done on the official community map and thus invalidates many of the arguments against this map.

 

Actually, that does seem to be how the community maps work.  I have seen posts requesting the addition of deeds, with the response that only the deed owner can approve the addition.  I flagged a new canal on Release but it was not added until the builder confirmed its details.

 

I am against any kind of automated mapping of Wurm - where the player stays home but the map in their pocket magically updates.  The game world is firmly age-of-sail and updated GPS maps are just completely out of place.  I am all for highways and other public infrastructure to be included on the map, and therefore maybe deeds on the highway systems should have their waystone flagged on such a map - but even that is I think a stretch.  

 

When we were at the technology level roughly represented in Wurm, a map was a valuable commodity.  An up to date and accurate one was a rare and very valuable one.  I used to think that the in-game map needed to be updated a bit - but have come to realize that it is is actually a very good example of the kind of map someone might just be given gratis back in the day - a vague and out-of-date one that nevertheless can be the difference between hopelessly lost wandering and having  rough idea of where you are and how to get to where you want.  

 

EDIT:  An argument given above in favour of an automap is that it should be like real world maps - with the given example being Google and streetview.  Google and streetview are how maps work in the world of 21st century world of satellites and the internet of things.  Wurm should have automaps when its space program and wi-fi are mature.

Edited by TheTrickster
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I read through some threads in this forum, where people are against maps because they don't fit the time.

But in the same thread, they constantly whine that map dumps should be done more frequently.

Map dumps are space age satellite mapping.

Pick one, people.

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On 7/11/2021 at 8:18 AM, Ficik said:

I read through some threads in this forum, where people are against maps because they don't fit the time.

But in the same thread, they constantly whine that map dumps should be done more frequently.

Map dumps are space age satellite mapping.

Pick one, people.

Yes, I picked one, thanks.  That is "no automated mapping".  I have been pretty consistent on that.

 

I get that what you are proposing here is not automated, but is based on exploring.  The thing is, if someone finds an unmapped deed in-game then they are also able to see who is the mayor.  It would not be a big deal to ask for permission to show the deed on a map.  Arguments that people playing an MMO shouldn't want privacy are not really valid.  Individuals have individual priorities and approaches.  An individual player's right to do what they want ends where they encroach on another player.  A deed belongs to a particular player, and they have the right to decide whether or not it is publicly listed or displayed.  

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On reflection, I have made a suggestion regarding exploration and mapmaking that also has potential to encroach on a player's right to the privacy of their deed, so it seems that the house from which I throw stones is indeed glass.  

 

I hate it when that happens.

 

This would be ingame maps, too.  I am currently contemplating solutions, which I will post in my mapmaking suggestion.

 

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster

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i think a map based on exploring the server and reporting found locations is a good idea, regardless of wether people agree with their property being added to the map or not. i read all the arguments about satelite mapping and maps are not a thing in the days of wurm times but truthfully back in those times exploring and making maps was pretty much a thing, in fact a brilliant explorer that mapped out a new area was usually rewarded well for their efforts. Seeing the developers have not given us the tools to explore and make maps in game then this is the option left to us. for the record if you do not want your name associated with a discovered deed then hide your token behind locked doors(yes you can hide a token) that way only the name of the deed can be reported and all the people that look at the map can tell is a deed named (insert name here) is located at that spot and then if they want to homestead in that area they can approach when you are online. Not all my deeds are publicly known, yet i would not have a problem if someone reported one of my deeds as being found and added to the map so others know that someone has claimed the area.

Also for the person that started this map please feel free to include any of my deeds on the map, Apple Hill Overlook, Crimson Guard Knights, Bludscythe Shipyards, Oakheart Shores, Dotn Tunnel Right of Way and Bludscythe Mining. If someone is lucky enough to find out my other deeds you have my permission to include them too :)

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On 7/29/2021 at 5:22 PM, kordethbludscythe said:

i think a map based on exploring the server and reporting found locations is a good idea, regardless of wether people agree with their property being added to the map or not. i read all the arguments about satelite mapping and maps are not a thing in the days of wurm times but truthfully back in those times exploring and making maps was pretty much a thing, in fact a brilliant explorer that mapped out a new area was usually rewarded well for their efforts. Seeing the developers have not given us the tools to explore and make maps in game then this is the option left to us. for the record if you do not want your name associated with a discovered deed then hide your token behind locked doors(yes you can hide a token) that way only the name of the deed can be reported and all the people that look at the map can tell is a deed named (insert name here) is located at that spot and then if they want to homestead in that area they can approach when you are online. Not all my deeds are publicly known, yet i would not have a problem if someone reported one of my deeds as being found and added to the map so others know that someone has claimed the area.

Also for the person that started this map please feel free to include any of my deeds on the map, Apple Hill Overlook, Crimson Guard Knights, Bludscythe Shipyards, Oakheart Shores, Dotn Tunnel Right of Way and Bludscythe Mining. If someone is lucky enough to find out my other deeds you have my permission to include them too :)

 

I couldn't agree more :) This is an awesome idea. Some things are 'public' and some things are not. If it's possible to see something public by the game mechanics, it is public. Private things like your password, settlement roles and building permissions are private and should be kept that way.

For those who see this as an bad idea, you should also shut down Niarja. Some players might want that their names should not be able to be connected to their deed names and vice versa. I know that the information is public when deed is founded, but you know it only if you're logged in at the moment on the same server. If you want more privacy, you should maybe suggest a change in the game mechanics and hide the deed name that way ;)

You can't ever know what other 'public' information is already shared on all unknown servers you might not heard of. Ficik was an exception as one made this idea and the map server known for all :D

I would like to take part to this exceptionally awesome explorer guild, but unfortunately I have no time to play anything. I hope you have this still running when I have :)

Keep going, don't ever give up ❤️

Edited by Calhagud
Fixed some grammar mistakes
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A few observations, in response to earlier posts.

  • This isn't automated mapping. It isn't spy satellites. It is explorers, discovering and reporting the location of deeds, followed by other players potentially either visiting or avoiding those deeds. As such, it is 100% in keeping with the setting of the game.
  • Players pay for deeds. Some of those players want privacy or anonymity. No player pays for anonymity. The game doesn't support that.
  • If you really want your deed to be hidden, then choose a remote spot, remove all traces of travel to and from your deed, and hope that no one blunders into it.  
  • If you have a problem with player A telling player B the location of your deed, then you have a problem. That is to say, it's your problem, not theirs.

At the end of the day, players are going to communicate with one another. Players are going to create maps. Live with it.

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I find it humorous that folks like to pass this off as a grandiose adventure map, when in reality it's just a map to enable raiders to destroy a fallen deed within hours... even before the friends and allies of the deed owner have a chance to reach out or help. Call it what it is guys, a scavengers treasure map.

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14 hours ago, Calhagud said:

Some things are 'public' and some things are not. If it's possible to see something public by the game mechanics, it is public

 

Here I was I posted elsewhere, verbatim:

Quote

 

I have given some though as to how to make sure deeds are not published without the deed owner's permission.  

 

Only mayors would be able to map deed tokens and on-deed mailboxes. In fact, the only on-deed objects mapable by anyone other than the mayor(s) would be highways and waystones.  

 

A deed on the highway system is already "published".  Anyone can use any waystone on the server to look up the deed and obtain a yellow-brick road to follow, so there is no harm in someone who actually follows the yellow-brick road putting it on their map.

 

The highway system and the deed settings in relation to the highway system allow a deed founder to configure the "visibility" of their deed.   

 

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19 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

The highway system and the deed settings in relation to the highway system allow a deed founder to configure the "visibility" of their deed.   

Ok, that's awesome. So if I walk on your deed, I wont see the message "You entered to My private treasure island" ?

(If that setting applies only to the highway system, then it wont help here. The data which is given by the "You entered ..." would still be public.)

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I'm not here to argue so I'm just gonna leave my opinion and bounce. I really love the idea as it really helps us new players in navigation. Also I'm a web developer irl so if u need any help I'd love to contribute.

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On 6/27/2021 at 3:16 PM, Ficik said:

Having one person updating all the maps is not optimal.

 

This is not how it works. Please note, that each server has its own community map, and each of those maps is updated by its own "map manager".

 

Also, when looking at your map, I cannot quite see how it is in any way better than the established community map available here: https://cadence.yaga.host/. The image resolution is low and it contains way less deeds than the community map, which is being managed by @Gawain, the Cadence map manager. I agree, however, that the update rate of the Cadence map could be a lot higher, but that is another issue, to be discussed with the map manager.

 

I do not mean any offence and I appreciate the effort you put into this idea. However, I really think that having multiple competing community maps for the same server is a bad idea, as it only confuses the community and is far from being efficient. That said, I am in no position to keep you from doing what you want to do - so: good luck with your project.

 

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On 7/1/2021 at 12:31 PM, Ficik said:

I'm taking the hint that wurm players don't like fun, and won't be developing it further.

Edit: I might be developing it but at a slower speed

Wurm players are a bunch of curmudgeons.  As an explorer I support your map and I hope you keep working on it as it's really useful to have deed names on a map for finding your way around.  In real life we don't get to opt out of being on google maps.  I play as a hermit but always get my deeds put on maps so people know that spot is taken.  Personally, if I see a blank spot on a community map I'm going to assume it's likely no one settled there and will go have a look (if I'm in the mood for finding a new spot) and then I'll find your abandoned deed anyway.  I really don't understand the point of hiding.  Just keep up with your upkeep while you take a break, if you mean to come back.  If not, just let it go.  I've gotten no sympathy for losing spots to other Wurm players before, but when it's THEIR spot suddenly it's different?

Edited by Synoeca
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On 8/10/2021 at 6:26 AM, Yaga said:

 

This is not how it works. Please note, that each server has its own community map, and each of those maps is updated by its own "map manager".

 

Also, when looking at your map, I cannot quite see how it is in any way better than the established community map available here: https://cadence.yaga.host/. The image resolution is low and it contains way less deeds than the community map, which is being managed by @Gawain, the Cadence map manager. I agree, however, that the update rate of the Cadence map could be a lot higher, but that is another issue, to be discussed with the map manager.

 

I do not mean any offence and I appreciate the effort you put into this idea. However, I really think that having multiple competing community maps for the same server is a bad idea, as it only confuses the community and is far from being efficient. That said, I am in no position to keep you from doing what you want to do - so: good luck with your project.

 

The Community map is incredibly out of date and low res.  I support a competing map if they aren't going to keep the original up to date.  As an explorer, the more maps the better, in my opinion....  When are we getting New Server map dumps anyway?  It's getting really frustrating to navigate the new servers, these days.  So much has changed and been terraformed.  Especially there are changes on Cadence due to all the grass fields growing over with trees as well as the increased population.  It really changes navigation.  Plus there are a lot more roads than the OG map shows and it's increasingly confusing.

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On 8/1/2021 at 6:16 PM, SirMuttley said:

I find it humorous that folks like to pass this off as a grandiose adventure map, when in reality it's just a map to enable raiders to destroy a fallen deed within hours... even before the friends and allies of the deed owner have a chance to reach out or help. Call it what it is guys, a scavengers treasure map.

As an actual explorer I take offense to your dismissiveness.  I have to think there are others like me....hmmm...  (KatsPurr has a whole stream dedicated to her explorations.)  Also looting old deeds has always been a part of Wurm.  If your valuables are in a house then that grants you even more time to reclaim items before they are taken.  How is anyone coming upon them to know whether or not you'll come back and save all the hard work you took making items, from inevitable decay?  I mean, at least the items aren't going to waste.  Yes, I do scavenge if I happen upon an expired deed, don't you?  But, I don't go out with the intent to scavenge.  Usually I explore to see what a region/spot on the map is like (in the wilderness or what I assume is wilderness, if someone is trying to "hide") or to find a resource, usually sprouts...or most often, just to see how the landscape has changed because I find that interesting.   I used to go looking for wild horses, but those seem to have gone extinct on new servers.... Anyway, recently abandoned deeds aren't likely to be scavenged until their buildings decay as most valuables are protected by buildings, so using a community map to find "marks" isn't super efficient unless you are willing to to wait a week or two after the deed disbands to pounce.

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Here is my take on this:

If you want privacy, there is something that can fix you.

And it's called SINGLE PLAYER.

So, if I was a cartographer and discovered things around, I really wouldn't care about your feelings. 

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4 hours ago, Synoeca said:

Anyway, recently abandoned deeds aren't likely to be scavenged until their buildings decay as most valuables are protected by buildings, so using a community map to find "marks" isn't super efficient unless you are willing to to wait a week or two after the deed disbands to pounce.

This is an incorrect assumption, as I have seen what I described several times on Indy. Within hours there are "sheds" popping up to prevent the original owner from deeding again and to block mines, walls bashed, etc. It's a sad sight but does in fact occur. As I stated before, this is really just a scavengers map that serves no other purpose. Why don't folks just embrace it for what it is? 

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1 minute ago, SirMuttley said:

This is an incorrect assumption, as I have seen what I described several times on Indy. Within hours there are "sheds" popping up to prevent the original owner from deeding again and to block mines, walls bashed, etc. It's a sad sight but does in fact occur. As I stated before, this is really just a scavengers map that serves no other purpose. Why don't folks just embrace it for what it is? 

That is sad...I've never seen that nor had the compulsion to do that sort of thing.  (I have seen bashed fences, but not walls) I don't doubt that right that there are people who would take advantage of a map, but...I mean...we know the risk going in.  There are plenty of us who don't do that sort of thing who would benefit greatly from detailed maps.  I just don't think it's as black and white as you are painting it. Just because scavengers might use it doesn't mean it's a scavengers map.  It's just a map that can be used for good or ill.  And honestly, if they want to go though all that effort...more power to them.  I guess that's how they play the game and get enjoyment.  It is just a game, after all.  I will continue to post my location accepting the risks and taking measures to avoid them.  The game does give a warning the first time you try to drop something in the world, after all....  Also, just a head's up:  As an explorer I am drawn to unmarked locations on maps.  I love finding beautiful little nooks in the wilderness and I'm probably not the only one.  There are benefits to letting people know you are there.  

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12 hours ago, Synoeca said:

As an explorer, the more maps the better, in my opinion...

As an explorer, I say maps are for tourists.  😄

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7 hours ago, Synoeca said:

As an explorer I am drawn to unmarked locations on maps.  I love finding beautiful little nooks in the wilderness and I'm probably not the only one. 

Same here.  In fact I have found some wonderful areas on Cadence that I WON'T be identifying to put on a map, simply because IMO they are better as discoveries not destinations.

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On 9/9/2021 at 1:21 AM, TheTrickster said:

Same here.  In fact I have found some wonderful areas on Cadence that I WON'T be identifying to put on a map, simply because IMO they are better as discoveries not destinations.

That's interesting... I guess we work differently. :)   I need the visual stimulation of seeing a map.  I feel overwhelmed and directionless without one, lol  Seriously though, I think some people just process information differently.  For me seeing a map has always been more helpful and inspiring for exploration.  In my day to day life I do tend to forget about things I can't see in front of me (I have inattentive ADD).  Maybe I'm unique, but I doubt it.  I'm curious now if anyone else here gets inspired by seeing a map.  I've always loved looking at maps in real life too.

 

Also, I don't feel like a spot being marked on a map spoils it for the person there already.  It spoils it for me because I'm less likely to want to go check it out, but that's ok because it saves me the disappointment of going there only to discover it has been settled.  That is a very particular kind of sadness.  And certainly no one is asking you to mark beautiful unsettled wild locations on the map....so I'm unclear of the issue.

Edited by Synoeca
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