Sheffie

Rebalance NEW ships

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Posted (edited)

First, let me be clear. All existing ships are "grandfathered in" and this is not a proposal to change any existing vessel's characteristics.

 

 

I think that the ship types in Wurm are not well balanced. I think it's self evident that the knarr is too strong compared to all the other vessels, which is why it's the most popular choice.

 

I think the game could benefit from a re-balancing of ship attributes, which all new ships would use.

The goal here is for there to be a good reason for a player to want each type of ship. So I propose changes as follows:-

  • Rowing boat: no changes. It's a popular first vessel and easy enough to make.
  • Sailing boat: increase capacity to allow loading of three small crates. This makes the sailing boat an attractive option for a self-sufficient trader of modest means.
  • Corbita: improve handling against the wind. This is a good value for money vessel, not too difficult to construct, but its upwind sailing performance is terrible for a deep draft ship.
  • Cog: increase capacity. I feel that this ought to be the default choice for a merchant, and at present it just doesn't seem to appeal to many.
  • Knarr: decrease capacity to that of a wagon. The ship carries far too much cargo for such a shallow, fast vessel. If people want that much performance, they should accept that there just isn't much space on board.
  • Caravel: increase speed slightly. This is supposed to be the most prestigious ship. It's the hardest to make and has the most advanced sails. It also has a deep keel. Therefore, it ought to sail better than all the others.

 

 

Note: It may be necessary to call the new vessels "new" (e.g. new Caravel) in order to make it clear to buyers which one they're getting.

Edited by Sheffie
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ships are already bad as they are and you suggest nerfing knarr? The reason everyone uses knarr is because it can sail at -6 depth when the rest of the big vessels require -20 at least.. with all other vessels you cant even sail close to the shore.. Worst suggestion ever.

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I'd not call knarrs fast.. if anything the speed on my ql70 rare knarr is what the forum shows as ###########, not sure for exact translation

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Uh no, again a big -1. so what if knarrs are popular? They're also the hardest ship to build aren't they? Whatever, that's 0 for 2 on your suggestions so far.

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23 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

Uh no, again a big -1. so what if knarrs are popular? They're also the hardest ship to build aren't they? Whatever, that's 0 for 2 on your suggestions so far.

 

Another opinion that doesn't seem to be grounded in reality. As you say, 0 for 2 so far.

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-1 to all. No "old and new ships" which creates a code disaster and a bug wave. The knarr nerf is a terrible idea, -100.

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15 hours ago, Sheffie said:

Another opinion that doesn't seem to be grounded in reality. As you say, 0 for 2 so far.

LOL, whatever. Knarrs are "One of the most difficult ships to build." according to Wurmpedia. And popular. So yeah, I'll stay with my opinion, which is firmly grounded in reality. And you seem to not be.

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I like the idea of giving each ship a unique niche. Bumping the sailboat up in utility would also help new players, which surely is a good thing.

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I agree that boosting the sailboat hold would be good, at least allowing rafts and small crates to some extent. And that for all ships, existing ones included. The rest is widely garbage, from the tunnel vision of a NFIer where practically everyone is coastal. 

 

Splitting new and old boats is terrible, and can only come from somebody who never coded, not to mention economic repercussions to "old" not nerfed vs. not boosted vessels. Outright horror and not thought an inch wide.

Corbs are fine as they are, having a huge advantage of large hold and easy crafting. Cogs are fine as well, being the fastest of all ships, with an acceptable hold. Where it does not suffice, use a corb or create a Cara.

 

Knarr are hard to create, only bit short of the Caravel, the Wurm flagship for blue waters. They are somehow the "Nordic" brandmark of Wurm, an ocean going ship able to intrude into inland shallow waters.

Much of the communication ways on all larger servers with much landmass and mountain ranges depends on Knarr traffic able to sail in shallow waters, narrow caves, and low ceilings. Only a noob never having had to sail a cara through such environments can have such a terrible idea.

 

Wanting to nerf them is destroying the soul of the game.

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20 hours ago, Sheffie said:

 the knarr is too strong compared to all the other vessels, which is why it's the most popular choice.

The knarr isn't the best solution. It's the only solution, being the only ship able to go over shallow water with any kind of storage space since the sailboat cant even load a shitty crate not to mention bulk bins or animal cages.

As for its storage space, it's already lower than a Caravel or a Cog. It is very much paying the price of not having a large cargo hold.

How difficult it is or isn't to build is irrelevant.

The people build shallow canals/tunnels because the knarr exists. And people use knarrs because the canals/tunnels are built shallow. It's a self fulfilling loop.

 

No. I do not like the idea of modifying existing ships. Adding new ones however...

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Posted (edited)

I have a 90+ QL knarr with speed runes, but I mosty use my 88qll caravel for the higher speed. Onlly sometimes if I go inland I would be using the knarr for those areas where the caravel cannot travel.

 

There is no need to nerf the knarr.

 

But I think:

  • The larger ships - caravel, cog, corbita - shoud have bunk beds - for say 4 people.
  • The caravel should be even speedier but as a tradeoff have increased timer for changing sails. The timer can decrease with crew size.
  • The cog should have a much higher capacity, surpassing any other ship maybe. But it should be slower than the caravel, corbita, knarr. It would be the best ship to transport a lot of stuff.
  • Thhe caravel should have a dinghy for reaching the land through shallow waters. It has one in the model. The dinghy doesn't make the caravel an all around vessel - you will just be able to reach land with it for explloring. You won't be able to bring the ship close enough to load big stuff.
Edited by Idlamn
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Posted (edited)

When speaking about Knarr one cannot avoid speaking about Wurm history. Wurm has (like nearly every MMO I know and got information about the creators) been designed as a primarily PvP game, the Knarr being the Viking style raiding vehicle, thus the relatively large hold. It would be pathetic to be unable to carry the spoils due to load issues. Also it would be stupid to have to carve high towering ceilings to be able to sail a cave (mind that in the beginning, all ships had to be pushed/pulled through cave entrances. Imagine that with a blue water ship where you have to be swimming for).

 

And Perji is right: The infrastructure much adapted to existing vessels. The additional effort to make waterways viable for blue water ships was not undergone everywhere for every tunnel project. Especially longer tunnels would need to be 4-6 vs 1-2 wide to allow for deep draft ships, and driveway, and need very high ceilings in addition.

 

New ships? I could like the idea. Make a suggestion.

Edited by Ekcin

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Idlamn said:

I have a 90+ QL knarr with speed runes, but I mosty use my 88qll caravel for the higher speed. Onlly sometimes if I go inland I would be using the knarr for those areas where the caravel cannot travel.

 

There is no need to nerf the knarr.

 

But I think:

  • The larger ships - caravel, cog, corbita - shoud have bunk beds - for say 4 people.
  • The caravel should be even speedier but as a tradeoff have increased timer for changing sails. The timer can decrease with crew size.
  • The cog should have a much higher capacity, surpassing any other ship maybe. But it should be slower than the caravel, corbita, knarr. It would be the best ship to transport a lot of stuff.
  • Thhe caravel should have a dinghy for reaching the land through shallow waters.

 

See, now here are some really interesting and challenging ideas.

I like the idea that a ship should perform better with more crew. Currently I don't think there's any real incentive to carry extra people.

Boats with dinghies (either towed or loaded) is a technical challenge that the devs have shied away from addressing so far. I'd like them to give it a shot.

Edited by Sheffie

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Posted (edited)

Every of the larger ships performs better with more crew (not sure about row and small sailboat). Rarity adds a "virtual passenger" so that speed increases. My knarr is a couple of km/h faster with my 3 priest gang on board than without.

Originally, knarr were thought as raid ships for a much larger crew (PvP invasion force), and could then unfold full speed. Same btw. goes for the other ships.

 

That said, I like the idea with the beds. Also I think the larger ships as cara and cog should be able to load a rowboat or even small sailboat (maybe cara only) as a dinghi.

Edited by Ekcin
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Truth to be told, there is no way, knarr could hold 30 large crates.

 

But I guess it is very convenient, and people get used to it for years.

 

Large cargo, good speed, many passangers, shallow bottom. Flaws?

 

What's the point for other ships when we have a knarr?

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Knarr was the main cargo ship for the vikings. And that because they were such great ships. They could hold 25 tons of cargo, was fast, maneuverable, and was good at sailing the open oceans. I would say Wurm has captured the spirit of the Knarr close to real life indeed.

 

That said, I agree it does render some of the other ships a bit unappealing for most. And that this could use some tuning, but not by nerfing knarr. Suggestions like bunk beds, so you can get sleep bonus I like.

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1 hour ago, Drogos said:

Knarr was the main cargo ship for the vikings. And that because they were such great ships. They could hold 25 tons of cargo, was fast, maneuverable, and was good at sailing the open oceans. I would say Wurm has captured the spirit of the Knarr close to real life indeed.

Those were much wider ships then knarr that we see in Wurm. Here, it is basically much longer sailboat with many benches.

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47 minutes ago, Wilczan said:

Those were much wider ships then knarr that we see in Wurm. Here, it is basically much longer sailboat with many benches.

I would not be opposed to a model update of the knarr to better visually reflect its greatness. Then again, it is a game, most stuff is a visual compromise, so not really needed imo.

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Posted (edited)

-1

I destroyed so many hull planks *sigh*

Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update
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Skill "sailing" would be nice, the higher the value the faster the ship moves.

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I don't actually see any point in adding boats to the larger ships. The point being, you use large ship to transport cargo. Then use the attached rowboat to get said cargo from ship to shore, only you can't because you can't load any crates in a rowboat. So what's its purpose?

 

Naturally, people would use boats to get themselves to the shore, because people enjoy avoiding getting wet. This isn't a thing in Wurm though, where you can just go swimming at any point without any consequences. Wearing full plate armor you can just swim for days instead of sinking like a rock. Getting leather armor wet, not a problem, you get no damage from wearing stiffened leather, and neither does the armor. Going in water in your cotton clothes? Not like those clothes are gonna have 8 kgs of water soaked into them when you get out. Avoiding water does nothing and there's no point using a boat to get to shore when you can just disembark and swim. At least, not enough of a difference to justify added developer time costs I think.

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Posted (edited)

Give the sailboat a reasonable cargo capacity at the cost of speed, and and the cargo transport issue is somewhat addressed.

 

However, large ships are also faster, so are used as personal transport over longer distances in addition to cargo haulage - but are limited to deep water.  Shallow draft boats are the answer to that.  Give the 2 little boats crate carrying and Bob's your uncle.

Edited by TheTrickster

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Actually, the rowboat is the "swimming (and self propelled) small cart", but the sailboat is the same. Maybe one should or should not make the sailboat "swimming large cart", but at minimum something in between, minimally being able to carry an lcrate/2 scrates and a raft, or even full load like a large cart.

 

And btw., even without, a boat on large ships would make sense, e.g. when delivering a ship to a buyer and wanting to sail back. Or when entering an area with shallow canals for exploration.

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