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Toby

Staff - Nimb or Woa for Rifts?

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Posted (edited)

Silver staff - Nimb or woa?

 

Which is better for rifts? 

 

Most use Huge Axe, but isn't staff just as good for rifts? 

Edited by Toby

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Nim for sure. woa is wasted on a staff, especially if you're in aggressive. 

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I'd also agree on Nimbleness. I use my staff for rifts and uniques, and it serves me very well. 

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On 6/25/2021 at 2:02 AM, Synjor said:

Nim for sure. woa is wasted on a staff, especially if you're in aggressive. 

 

It's not wasted, it actually hits faster

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On 6/24/2021 at 7:38 PM, Toby said:

Silver staff - Nimb or woa?

 

Which is better for rifts? 

 

Most use Huge Axe, but isn't staff just as good for rifts? 

tl;dr

woa>nim for long term whacking without regard to your safety vs most mobs, UNLESS your weapon is a glimmer 4.0 aspeed or 3.0 aspeed weapon.
With staves, woa. Unless it';s glimmer, but glimmer is a waste on staves.

 

 

 

 

 see this post for raw DPS

when determining NIM vs WOA (or BOTD) you also need to consider your own CR and the enemy CR.

You can find your own CR by calculating 4 + (your FS/10) + misc bonuses, found in this thread: 


A 90 NIM cast is +3 cr, which while can be equated to 30 fight skill, it's more important to see how that percentage actually affects you. If you have, say, 11 CR (70fs) and no other bonuses (extremely unlikely) and are fighting an equal CR creature, your chance to hit is 11/22 or roughly 50%. If you add 3 cr, your chance to hit is 14/25, or roughly 56% aka +6% hit chance. In PvE, most mobs are below 10 cr, minus some particularly nasty/rare mobs (kingdom animals, turtles, sea creatures and the "hard" pve animals like trslls, anacondas)- due to how the formula works, the higher your CR and your enemies CR, the less each individual point really means. If you have 30 cr and your enemy has 30, you'll have a 30/60 chance aka 50%, and with nim a 33/63 chance, or 52%. Way less valuable.

What's this mean DPS-wise? Well, let's do the math.

If you attack 100 times, and have a 50% chance to miss each time, and each hit deals 10 damage, you hit 50 times at the end of the attack, dealing 500 damage.
If you get a +10% boost to your tohit, you'll hit 60 times, hitting 10 more times, for 600 damage.

So, how's that compare to attack speed bonuses?
If you have +10% attack speed, you will attack an extra time in the timespan that you attack 10 times. So, in the time the above dude attacks 100 times, you'll have attacked 110 times.
50% of those still miss, so you'll have hit 55 times, for a total of 550 damage.

This math translates to most situations, meaning that a 1% boost to your hitchance is worth about +2% damage.

So, what's the hit-chance with rift mobs?

Well. Not a clue! There's no public data for the CR of each rift mob. You can probably try to estimate them based on how often you hit certain mobs vs other mobs, but it's very likely they mostly have very high cr, which means that nimbleness is only adding a couple % hit chance for you, especialyl if you're already a strong character/priested/abusing CR modifiers listed in the earlier post.

The 5% example from earlier is the top end situation for nimbleness when talking about pure dps- roughly translating to a 10% boost in overall dps. WoA adds a flat -.5 modifier to your attack speed, which almost ALWAYS results in more than +10% attack speed (for baseline 5.0, it's 10%. Even when factoring 6 second swing weapons, you also need to factor in the fact you will probably be on aggressive mode, so even then woa will closely compete).

So, yeah. Woa probably wins here.

 

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Posted (edited)

3sec swing time in aggressive.. how does woa help if you can't get any faster than the 3sec.. and you already have 80-90/+ weapon mastery..

I'm probably blind, but I can't see woa being 0.5 boost at all times; if the attack delay is 3seconds.. how do you benefit from *no benefit* to that timer..

--edit

This is 1 of the issues that the game have.. 0 ingame explanation what happens and why.. to a new player this is one big utter ######, only explainable if you go read the spaghetti wu code and maybe making sense of it..

NEW UI

NEW FIGHTING

0 improvement to fighting feedback events

 

Players have 0 ingame feedback what is strong and what is weak, all rounds around the CR and standing - well no detail is shown ingame(green/yellow distance icon with no explanation.. "ok.. very useful"), we have bugged icons with colors and memes like tower guard with skull.. 1 swing with 2handed axe.. and that skull's gone, deadly indeed; bunch of meek creatures with yellow icon like they are threat.. etc

Edited by Finnn

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47 minutes ago, Finnn said:

3sec swing time in aggressive.. how does woa help if you can't get any faster than the 3sec.. and you already have 80-90/+ weapon mastery..

I'm probably blind, but I can't see woa being 0.5 boost at all times; if the attack delay is 3seconds.. how do you benefit from *no benefit* to that timer..

--edit

This is 1 of the issues that the game have.. 0 ingame explanation what happens and why.. to a new player this is one big utter ######, only explainable if you go read the spaghetti wu code and maybe making sense of it..

NEW UI

NEW FIGHTING

0 improvement to fighting feedback events

 

Players have 0 ingame feedback what is strong and what is weak, all rounds around the CR and standing - well no detail is shown ingame(green/yellow distance icon with no explanation.. "ok.. very useful"), we have bugged icons with colors and memes like tower guard with skull.. 1 swing with 2handed axe.. and that skull's gone, deadly indeed; bunch of meek creatures with yellow icon like they are threat.. etc

 

I am not exactly sure how much fast is the staff in aggressive, but surely enough it's over 3s, probably around 3.5-3.7. If someone else with more insight could shed some light on it would be nice

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On 6/24/2021 at 7:38 PM, Toby said:

Silver staff - Nimb or woa?

 

Which is better for rifts? 

 

Most use Huge Axe, but isn't staff just as good for rifts? 

 

Short answer: Nimbleness

 

Long answer: Wind of Ages is only better at a certain level of skill and gear, and also requires you to be fighting optimally (flanking bonus and more). If you'd like to figure out the specifics and do the math yourself, the resources you're looking for are Wurm Data (Weapons sheet) and Wurm Combat Explained. Between the two, you can run the numbers yourself using your own stats and situation.

 

If you're not looking to get into the details and optimize for the 1% increases, then just go Nimbleness. It will almost always outperform Wind of Ages against Rift creatures.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Finnn said:

3sec swing time in aggressive.. how does woa help if you can't get any faster than the 3sec.. and you already have 80-90/+ weapon mastery..

I'm probably blind, but I can't see woa being 0.5 boost at all times; if the attack delay is 3seconds.. how do you benefit from *no benefit* to that timer..

--edit

This is 1 of the issues that the game have.. 0 ingame explanation what happens and why.. to a new player this is one big utter ######, only explainable if you go read the spaghetti wu code and maybe making sense of it..

NEW UI

NEW FIGHTING

0 improvement to fighting feedback events

 

Players have 0 ingame feedback what is strong and what is weak, all rounds around the CR and standing - well no detail is shown ingame(green/yellow distance icon with no explanation.. "ok.. very useful"), we have bugged icons with colors and memes like tower guard with skull.. 1 swing with 2handed axe.. and that skull's gone, deadly indeed; bunch of meek creatures with yellow icon like they are threat.. etc



staff doesn't have a 3s swing timer on agg, it's a 3.6 (a little higher due to speed penalty from not having 100 skill)

even staff with woa isn't 3s, it's around 3.1s.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sindusk said:

 

Short answer: Nimbleness

 

Long answer: Wind of Ages is only better at a certain level of skill and gear, and also requires you to be fighting optimally (flanking bonus and more). If you'd like to figure out the specifics and do the math yourself, the resources you're looking for are Wurm Data (Weapons sheet) and Wurm Combat Explained. Between the two, you can run the numbers yourself using your own stats and situation.

 

If you're not looking to get into the details and optimize for the 1% increases, then just go Nimbleness. It will almost always outperform Wind of Ages against Rift creatures.

tbh even assuming bare minimum (70fs, absolutely no modifiers and just flat cr), 11cr vs 11cr only has a 5% hit chance increase with 90 nim, 11cr vs 100 cr has about a 2% increase. so the best case scenario is fighting something roughly equal to you or weaker than you for cr bonuses to mean a lot (flat ones), and the stronger you get/the stronger enemies get, the less impactful it is.

I didn't factor in modifiers because even those just make the situation worse for nim (as higher cr = each individual point matters less, less % hit-chance gain from nim in the end). interested in your explanation for why nim is better to know what i did wrong though

Edited by RainRain
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25 minutes ago, RainRain said:



staff doesn't have a 3s swing timer on agg, it's a 3.6 (a little higher due to speed penalty from not having 100 skill)

even staff with woa isn't 3s, it's around 3.1s.

 

 

tbh even assuming bare minimum (70fs, absolutely no modifiers and just flat cr), 11cr vs 11cr only has a 5% hit chance increase with 90 nim, 11cr vs 100 cr has about a 2% increase. so the best case scenario is fighting something roughly equal to you or weaker than you for cr bonuses to mean a lot (flat ones), and the stronger you get/the stronger enemies get, the less impactful it is.

I didn't factor in modifiers because even those just make the situation worse for nim (as higher cr = each individual point matters less, less % hit-chance gain from nim in the end). interested in your explanation for why nim is better to know what i did wrong though

that's ###### though.. this should use the derp rounding and at 5+ levels to get the next point.. gives you reason to grind to the end and start and reach next 5/+ until 95

it's just UNREALISTIC to expect somebody to grind to 100 on a weapon to get to the explained on wiki for years .. 'oh yeah fight in aggressive - YOU DO DROP 1 SECOND FOR THE SWING'

 

For example I am at 97 staff and not even fighting... if this ever gets somewhere it's 99.. chasing 100 is not hard, it's just dumb amount of time to spend and the reward for it is sad.

But that's me.. and none of that is getting fixed, so keep wasting casts on 100 woa to get 1/10th of a second faster swing timer, getting 90+ on the weapon is not hard at all.. recasting later or replacing the weapon later will be fun.. 

 

I don't want to run numbers, leaving that fun for the others. If I start poking into wu code and making sense of stuff I'll take on a different path that I do not want to.

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9 hours ago, RainRain said:

tbh even assuming bare minimum (70fs, absolutely no modifiers and just flat cr), 11cr vs 11cr only has a 5% hit chance increase with 90 nim, 11cr vs 100 cr has about a 2% increase. so the best case scenario is fighting something roughly equal to you or weaker than you for cr bonuses to mean a lot (flat ones), and the stronger you get/the stronger enemies get, the less impactful it is.

I didn't factor in modifiers because even those just make the situation worse for nim (as higher cr = each individual point matters less, less % hit-chance gain from nim in the end). interested in your explanation for why nim is better to know what i did wrong though

 

The math and logic here is faulty. Assuming the situation of 11 CR vs 11 CR, with 90 nimbleness you're going from 75% hit chance to 80.64% hit chance. This isn't a 5% damage increase. It's 80.64 / 75.0 = 7.5% damage increase. Not to mention that multipliers in combat such as flanking bonus and similar will increase the differential even more.

 

Rift creatures have more CR than players by a decent bit. Lets say you're fighting 11 CR vs 25 CR. With 90 nimbleness, you go from 51.7% hit chance to 58.9% hit chance. 58.9 / 51.7 = 1.139, or a 13.9% damage increase. This, being Nimbleness 90 (for sake of easy rounding to nearest whole CR), outperforms WoA 100 on a weapon. Combine that with additional modifiers via flanking bonus to close the gap between you and the target even more, and you'll notice that Nimbleness results in a significantly better damage output over WoA.

 

In short, WoA is good if the target is weak. Nimbleness is better if the target is strong. Any weapon that is meant to do rifts, uniques, or difficult creatures of any kind (trolls even) should be using Nimbleness over Wind of Ages.

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12 hours ago, Finnn said:

that's ###### though.. this should use the derp rounding and at 5+ levels to get the next point.. gives you reason to grind to the end and start and reach next 5/+ until 95

it's just UNREALISTIC to expect somebody to grind to 100 on a weapon to get to the explained on wiki for years .. 'oh yeah fight in aggressive - YOU DO DROP 1 SECOND FOR THE SWING'

 

For example I am at 97 staff and not even fighting... if this ever gets somewhere it's 99.. chasing 100 is not hard, it's just dumb amount of time to spend and the reward for it is sad.

But that's me.. and none of that is getting fixed, so keep wasting casts on 100 woa to get 1/10th of a second faster swing timer, getting 90+ on the weapon is not hard at all.. recasting later or replacing the weapon later will be fun.. 

 

I don't want to run numbers, leaving that fun for the others. If I start poking into wu code and making sense of stuff I'll take on a different path that I do not want to.

you just got explained above is 3.6 at 100 skill, so with 100 woa still is like 0.5s not 1/10th of the second

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22 hours ago, Sindusk said:

 

The math and logic here is faulty. Assuming the situation of 11 CR vs 11 CR, with 90 nimbleness you're going from 75% hit chance to 80.64% hit chance. This isn't a 5% damage increase. It's 80.64 / 75.0 = 7.5% damage increase. Not to mention that multipliers in combat such as flanking bonus and similar will increase the differential even more.

 

Rift creatures have more CR than players by a decent bit. Lets say you're fighting 11 CR vs 25 CR. With 90 nimbleness, you go from 51.7% hit chance to 58.9% hit chance. 58.9 / 51.7 = 1.139, or a 13.9% damage increase. This, being Nimbleness 90 (for sake of easy rounding to nearest whole CR), outperforms WoA 100 on a weapon. Combine that with additional modifiers via flanking bonus to close the gap between you and the target even more, and you'll notice that Nimbleness results in a significantly better damage output over WoA.

 

In short, WoA is good if the target is weak. Nimbleness is better if the target is strong. Any weapon that is meant to do rifts, uniques, or difficult creatures of any kind (trolls even) should be using Nimbleness over Wind of Ages.

! i completely forgot that hit chance is curved after the initial calculation, yeah. ok this is correct.

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Thanks to Sindusk for the explanation, and RainRain too for her contribution. Sometimes asking the right question, even with wrong assumption, is as valuable as giving the right answer.

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