Sheffie

Let's try to improve unique creature battles

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Posted (edited)

The problem

We have a situation where hunting groups are forming with the purpose of controlling the distribution of loot from slaying unique creatures.

 

Planting a deed to trap a unique creature is a form of privatization of the commons; that is to say, something (e.g. a dragon) which was a public resource beforehand becomes private property afterwards.

The fact that this happens routinely, and that there may even be competition to do so, may be taken as confirmation that the cost of founding a deed purely to trap a unique is far outweighed by the benefits of doing so.

In other words, there is a consensus that there is profit to be made in taking something that was public and making it private.

 

Opinion

I believe that the privatization of public resources is a problem for the community. I believe it's elitist and divisive. I believe it brings a sour note to events that could and should be much more inviting to all. I believe that the player community is poorer when these creatures are taken into private ownership.

 

Options

To be considered separately.

  1. Prevent the trapping of unique creatures
  2. No more "private" slayings
  3. Give everyone a chance to win strange bones
  4. Stop awarding strange bones
  5. Distribute rewards such as dragon scale based on contribution
  6. Reduce the maximum reward per person 

 

1. Prevent the trapping of unique creatures

This solution has non-trivial technical costs and does not solve the problem on its own. It is, however, in keeping with the spirit of the rules, which clearly state that "any unique creature can escape any confinement you build at any time of its own choosing" and regarding trapping "This of course is not really intended, and unique creatures can escape on their own volition...").  I don't think anyone would debate that there is a serious mismatch between what the rules state and what the game code allows. Arguably,  having unique creatures wandering an area rather than being trapped makes their hunting and slaying a much more realistic and immersive experience for the community.

 

2. No more "private" slayings

This is simply a rewrite of the rules such that uninvited players would not be prohibited from the local area. The main benefit of this would be an easing of the burden on GMs who may be asked to enforce prohibitions under the present rules, and a more open and inviting atmosphere for the community in general.

 

3. Give everyone a chance to win strange bones

Rather than awarding a strange bone through butchering the corpse,  effectively giving it to the party that "claimed" the creature, instead choose a player to receive it from those present and award it directly. Eligibility rules, and the mechanism used to choose a player from those eligible, are details. But for example the eligibility requirement could be having either damaged the creature or healed someone injured by it - or it could be having sacrificed a 20c coin within the last hour - or it could be having bought a ticket from a local merchant - or it could be any combination. Selection could be purely random, or random but weighted by (or solely determined by) a player's contribution. These are merely examples of ideas and surely other players will have suggestions.

 

4. Stop awarding strange bones

In the absence of a fair mechanism for distributing the strange bone, the creation of them when butchering unique corpses could be suspended. This would hopefully be a temporary measure. The benefits would be a removal of the biggest single source of inequality in rewards, and a greatly reduced motivation to "claim" a creature.

 

5. Distribute rewards such as dragon scale based on contribution

Similarly to how rift rewards are distributed based on contribution, rewards such as dragon scale could be divided up based on the amount of damage or healing done during the combat. Blood should still be awarded to all those present.

 

6. Reduce the maximum reward per person 

Currently there is an incentive to hold private dragon slayings in order to maximize the scale awarded to each player. Putting a maximum limit on the reward per person removes this incentive, assuming the limit is low enough. 

 

Some counter-arguments and comments

  • If you're not guaranteed a bone, no one will want to do this any more.
    There are plenty of people willing to fight unique creatures, even when there's no chance of getting more than blood. The worst case scenario would be that unique creatures wander through and terrorize regions until they either die or a posse is finally rounded up to deal with them. Either case is arguably much more in keeping with the atmosphere of a dark ages fantasy game. 
  • Those who found a deed have taken a considerable risk and made an actual financial outlay, and they deserve to recoup that.
    Certainly anyone who founds a deed and risks death and dented equipment to help trap a unique creature does deserve to have their reasonable expenses covered. Whether they deserve the (currently, NFI servers) 40+ silver value of a rare strange bone is debatable. One way to reimburse the deed owner would be to have a collection from players attending the event. This could be formalized if, for example, a merchant sold entry tickets, or lottery tickets with the winner being awarded the strange bone. 
  • Without a deed, what's to prevent selfish players killing the beast and taking all the loot for themselves?
    Nothing beyond the inherent difficulty of the fight. No more than there is under the present system. This is an area where discussion and suggestions would be welcome.
  • But I found the dragon first. I deserve the hoard!
    Actually, you don't know that. Unique creatures aren't necessarily trapped by the first person to see them. It's far more likely that they are trapped by the first person to see them who's a member of a group with the resources to trap them. This isn't the moral high ground that it might look like.
     

Requests

- please post suggestions and comments without personal attacks or digressions

- assume that everyone here is trying to make Wurm better for everyone

 

 

 Reference: 

Note that the "etiquette" is enforced by bans

Edited by Sheffie
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Posted (edited)

It's certainly an issue when you casually hear people ask if a slaying is "in the usual spot" meaning the spawns happen in specific places often. As such, it seems players have set themselves up with deeds nearby to effectively camp these spawn locations.

 

Loot distribution is a huge issue. I agree that if something is this valuable, it should not be able to be limited involvement. The gatekeeping that happens as a result prevents players from getting end-game materials (unless they pay the gatekeepers, which makes it extortion).

 

1. I would like to see loot distribution more like with rifts, where only people who participate in the fight can gain loot (healing, buffing, or attacking) to end the constant parked carts of alts that border the edges of slayings when they're made public.

2. Remove the rare bones and possible tome drops. Replace this with Unique points that can be eventually cashed in for a rare bone or a tome (much like with rift!) so that routinely participating in these slayings earns fun rewards!

3. Scale the drops to the challenge. A big reason you see these private slayings is because the amount of scale you get when the group increases becomes almost laughable. Change this to a set amount of scale/hide plus blood per participant. You wanna earn enough scale to make armor you will need to attend multiple slayings this way, but keeping those slaying exclusive and private is no longer profitable.  To make it more fun, make the challenge/hit points of the creature scale with the number of people in local so we don't see dragons die in 10 seconds because they're run down by 80 players (80 fighters would be amazing to see, but TBH we mostly see alts in local when numbers are that high).

 

Find a way to stop the PROFITABILITY of private slayings and you may finally see the community come together and enjoy them as they were intended.

 

"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." - Buddha

 

ETA: I'm on Xanadu. I leave my deed and explore for hours and get horribly lost often. Finding uniques here is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles that is also on fire. This is evident by the Green Dragon Hatchling that's been chilling here since 2017. Yes, I could go searching other servers, but I shouldn't have to go to other places to get lost. I can get perfectly lost here. And searching on other servers for their uniques feels like I'm doing a disservice to the people that reside there.

Edited by Seriphina
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Posted (edited)

-1 

Time and time again people suggest unique slayings boil down to shitty participation events or point systems.

A lot of time and effort is put into looking for and penning uniques. Those who do so, deserve to decide what they do with the unique. If someone wants to hold a public event, great! If someone wants to kill it privately in order to actually make progress toward a hide/scale set, great! 

 

Uniques are a resource, like everything else in wurm. Everyone has the ability to go out and look for them, and claim them should they want to. 

Edited by Jore
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Hunting uniques is quite the last competitive event in the PVE side of Wurm. As proven on NFI and south too anyone actively looking for them or forming a group with friends will be successful. Why not just leave deed and roam on the maps?

 

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My suggestion: increase unique difficulty dramatically and make it unable to be penned, make it roam around and destroy villages, kill on sight. Private killings are fair game as long there's a challenge provided, the loot can be whatever idc. Maybe make the unique walk or fly away if it's not slain in like day or two after spawning. Or just make them pvp server only,

 

14 minutes ago, Jaz said:

Hunting uniques is quite the last competitive event in the PVE side of Wurm. As proven on NFI and south too anyone actively looking for them or forming a group with friends will be successful. Why not just leave deed and roam on the maps?

 

 

At the moment uniques only provide loot and not actual or very little challinge or risk. It won't make much of a difference if they are replaced with Loot chest for thise hunting groups that roam around the maps would find it and loot it

 

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Posted (edited)

I found two in a number of days. First one, I was lost looking for the rift.  Second one, I had taken off hunting for meat. Yes, it is hard to find them when groups that have been together forever are so great at finding and capturing them, but you CAN find them if you try. I will tell you that it is very SCARY having a dragon looking down at you with no one around hahahahaha. If you want a dragon or other unique go out and roam. You will not find them setting at your deed. 

I do agree the distribution of the loot should be looked at. Some people don't want to go to a public slaying just to get a little amount of scale/hide. I also like the idea of points earned for tomes and/or bones, but I don't see that changing.  When I have had private slayings before, I have let it all go to rolls. This is because I have won/kept a bone already and feel everyone should get a chance for one. Enki has rules on uniques and if you read up on them you will know exactly what to do and when. I will put it out there that I do feel it is the finder choice for the loot and/or private/public. This is because it is not easy finding them, I search day and night when I think that they have spawned. I think I have found 4. Most turned into private slaying because we did not know how to trap it.  But, I will more the likely give future ones to public unless trapping is not possible. 

Note: the private slayings I spoke of having were private to the point a time and date was not scheduled. I most always yell out in GL freedom or freedom for anyone that wants to come. 

Edited by ShenjiWurm
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Might as well give every noob character that enters the game via tutorial portal a lump of 10kg scale and 5kg hide and the already existing players 20kg of scale and 10kg of hide and 20 rare random bones to make it fair. problem solved lmao

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I find it very disingenuous of so many people that tell the OP to not post off topic in another post when unique mechanics were being discussed, but then come here with their nonsense and trash to derail and not provide anything to the discussion that the OP wishes to have here. I will speak up for the OP here as I did for Mad in the other post, each has the right to bring their thoughts forth and have a discussion about the topic in a constructive manner. So please add to the discussion that the OP is trying to bring forth or make your own post to discuss the things you wish.

 

Happy Wurming

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Posted (edited)

I think it is fair to let other people win loot from MY uniques, because I have already got a bone as stated above. I can tell you its not always about the loot. It is a BLAST finding one. We had so much fun running around with the one in Pristine. He really wanted to eat us. haha  I think everyone should have that chance, but if they don't go out and look they never will.  And, I did point out, I still believe it should stay finders choice, because it is not easy going out looking for them. Takes a lot of time and effort. 

Edited by ShenjiWurm
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3 minutes ago, Skatyna said:

Might as well give every noob character that enters the game via tutorial portal a lump of 10kg scale and 5kg hide and the already existing players 20kg of scale and 10kg of hide and 20 rare random bones to make it fair. problem solved lmao

 

Equity is not the same as equality. But thanks for the Strawman.

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The unique creature set up is a joke. You find them, you pen them in a cave, wow. Then you have a lot of ppl standing around waiting to get a hit on it so they can get 0.01 hide. This has been talked about forever -  no one can work out or don't want to spend the time working it out - what's the best way ..  personally I find it's sad that one of the best things in the game could be very fun IF the Dev team could look into it more. Couldn't be that hard to make it better than what we have. It's better to just not look for them and don't go to the event where someone has penned them, where you will stand around with them saying 'DUH let's see can i get a hit on it ...'  I just want my 1 blood and 0.01 hide. All I have to do is go to 50 more of them and stand around and I can make a boot (sarcasm) :) what a joke!

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Posted (edited)

Solving the Unique issue is not so easy. They have tried and will probably continue to work on it. I find if distasteful for people to talk down about the devs. Try their jobs for once, is all I'm saying

Edited by ShenjiWurm
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Its been 12 yrs i been playing this game nothing never be done how long does it take ? i was making a point Shenji. ppl who think like you is why nothing has been done over the last 12 yrs about it. just saying how long does it take to work something out.

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Posted (edited)

There were some things changed awhile ago, I thought. And no it is not. The Devs work pretty hard to keep everyone happy. I sure would hate to be in their shoes trying to fix all the bugs and what not and on top of that trying to add new things and fix old things. My point is don't bash em. If you have an idea post it to them. 

Edited by ShenjiWurm
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Nothing been done its been 12 yrs how much time do you need to fix something thats not working ?

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I'm not going to get into a screaming match with you. You don't get things done by being negative, you get them done by being nice and understanding.  They are people too and taking about them is not nice, sorry I'm a nice person and don't like that so I spoke up. 

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To be fair, I think that the devs are 100% busy, and I also wish that they took the time to fix things that really need fixing.

 

I'd hate to think that we're going to get a stream of new features (bridges, cooking, fishing, donkeys, etc.) but that nothing over a year old is going to be fixed. That's very frustrating

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Didnt think i was being mean i was trying to put a point across to say .

 

The unique creature set up is a joke. You find them, you pen them in a cave, wow. Then you have a lot of ppl standing around waiting to get a hit on it so they can get 0.01 hide. This has been talked about forever -  no one can work out or don't want to spend the time working it out - what's the best way ..  personally I find it's sad that one of the best things in the game could be very fun IF the Dev team could look into it more. Couldn't be that hard to make it better than what we have. It's better to just not look for them and don't go to the event where someone has penned them, where you will stand around with them saying 'DUH let's see can i get a hit on it ...'  I just want my 1 blood and 0.01 hide. All I have to do is go to 50 more of them and stand around and I can make a boot (sarcasm) :) what a joke!

 
  • Its not that hard to work out i dont care what you think here, i was trying to say what i think is that my right ShenjiWurm ? 

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8 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

To be fair, I think that the devs are 100% busy, and I also wish that they took the time to fix things that really need fixing.

 

I'd hate to think that we're going to get a stream of new features (bridges, cooking, fishing, donkeys, etc.) but that nothing over a year old is going to be fixed. That's very frustrating

I'm not saying they are 100% busy all the time, but they do try to fix things. I have had issues and they had got fixed pretty fast. My point is they do not have an easy job. How many people play wurm? Which people get their issue fixed today? Or maybe they need to fix this one? You can not please everyone. You can post to them, give them your concerns, then if they do not respond or don't fix it then be upset about it. And I know the unique issue is a long drawn out one, but there really is not a easy fix. 

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11 minutes ago, Tigerclaw said:

Didnt think i was being mean i was trying to put a point across to say .

Didn't like you saying that I am the problem. I try to help as much as I can. I give my views on the issues. All I was saying is talking bad about them is not the way to do it. And It does not matter that you do not care what I have to say. I will say what I want all day long. 

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16 minutes ago, Tigerclaw said:

personally I find it's sad that one of the best things in the game could be very fun IF the Dev team could look into it more.

And I think maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion about what you were saying. I am sorry. Should have read it more then once. 

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Hey guys/gals, kinda late to the party, I wanted to make sure I understand what's been said so far.

Older players are currently going around and repeatedly finding and effectively capturing uniques? 

Then some are slaying these beasts in a private event, while some are choosing to share with the community and host public events?

And you guys want this to change because you want them all to be public? You want them to not be found by the same group?

Sorry if it's already been mentioned, I'm just coming off a 20hr work shift so reading comprehension is a bit suffering. :(

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Posted (edited)

It is the same old complaint, No one gets to find uniques cause the well organized group finds them. The public ones are laggy and no one gets much loot. yada yada yada. Oh, and then I made a ass out of myself cause I thought this guy up there was bashing the devs. :) I need to read stuff better.  In truth, I really should have been born a blonde hahaha

Edited by ShenjiWurm

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You ever try to make a dake boot  by going to events to save hide to do so? You have to go to 50 of them to make 1 boot. The fights are like .ok boys let's stand around and wait for them to open a cave and get a hit in. I just don't see how this is fun for ppl. And there's a lot of ppl saying we love this setup of the game? Sorry I don't get it.

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Posted (edited)

I don't like it much, because there is so much lag. However, the community getting together and having a good time is what they enjoy. We get turned into creatures, have sermons and other stuff. I agree the hitting the dragon is not much fun. The public one I just did, I thought was fun, He was a bit harder to kill. 

There was also a lot of people there, over 150 can't remember the exact amount, but anyways we got .07 instead of .01 scale. I never seen that happen at a public one before. 

Edited by ShenjiWurm

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