DevBlog

Patch Notes 17/JUN/2021

Recommended Posts

Seeing discussions, brainstorms, and ideas being flipped back and forth does not equal having concrete details on what exactly is coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Those discussions are exactly what we're asking for though, the fact that you're pretending to not understand that is worrying.

 

Edit: Nobody is asking for unfiltered access to internal discussion, we simply want a summary of where the activity is. If they're focusing on a certain part we can focus our feedback on that instead of flooding them with information on things they're not even working on.

Edited by Dinant
Clarification
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

* the year is 2022 people gave up on the devs listening to them and just walk everyplace*

 

i mean this is the same thing that everytime a new system is introduced.

-complex fishing system (people just net fish)

-complex cooking system with 1000's of possibilities (people just eat pizza) 

 

soon to be 

-complex breeding system that doesnt work (people settle with nerf and continue to use thier cared for 5 speeds)

 

stop adding complexity and work to a game that people already do not play because its *work online* not wurm online

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

-

Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Dinant said:

We as players can't know this because the devs never communicate what they intend.

 

I think the intention of its design, whether it was planned or simply developing by inertia is to add another RNG system to the mix which clearly didn't receive positive feedback. 

Personally I don't like it because it adds more rng to a game that already has too much and it doesn't make sense to give certain traits to animals that have zero benefit from them , other than prolonging the time to get a good mix of breeds : ex. sheep with speed traits, bulls with output traits, cows with combat traits, horses with output traits = useless. It just artificially inflates the time to get a decent flock for anything.

 

Systems in which Wurm works with (too much RNG) : combat, weather, skillgain, missions, archeology, foraging, botanizing, crafting, imping, rifts, archery, chance to activate speed traits on hitched animals of mounts, % to get a meditation skill tick, etc. 

 

And as Delone said, it's a lottery. Perhaps too much RNG that wasn't intended to be so, but if it was, then sorry to say but it's not an update it's simply padding out a part of the game with randomness and frustration. Not a quality of life improvement. Similar to the fishing update, it overcomplicated a working system and gave slightly less rewards in the final analysis. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, elentari said:

I think the intention of its design, whether it was planned or simply developing by inertia is to add another RNG system to the mix which clearly didn't receive positive feedback. 

Personally I don't like it because it adds more rng to a game that already has too much and it doesn't make sense to give certain traits to animals that have zero benefit from them , other than prolonging the time to get a good mix of breeds : ex. sheep with speed traits, bulls with output traits, cows with combat traits, horses with output traits = useless. It just artificially inflates the time to get a decent flock for anything.

 

Systems in which Wurm works with (too much RNG) : combat, weather, skillgain, missions, archeology, foraging, botanizing, crafting, imping, rifts, archery, chance to activate speed traits on hitched animals of mounts, % to get a meditation skill tick, etc. 

 

And as Delone said, it's a lottery. Perhaps too much RNG that wasn't intended to be so, but if it was, then sorry to say but it's not an update it's simply padding out a part of the game with randomness and frustration. Not a quality of life improvement. Similar to the fishing update, it overcomplicated a working system and gave slightly less rewards in the final analysis. 

 

I've figured it out! Wurm got sold to a game lottery box company so added RNG isnt anything unexpected. might as well give us loot boxes we can buy with cash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Archaed said:

Because I don't feel the need to jump into every thread and continually harass the team about things I don't like. I've seen you post the same statements about the update across 4-5 threads, and that's just exhausting. 

 

I don't think editing posts violates ToS, you do need to calm down, your liking my post made me realise that it was continuing to rile you up in your anti-update furore, and I wanted to address that. 

 

I'm not splashing trolls, I'm not doing anything, just pointing out that Archaeology took two major updates and became one of the most fun skills out there. This absolutely does need work, and communication, but it's not some tragic plot to destroy the fun in animal husbandry, it's just struggling with the bridge between intent and result. I do believe it will come around in time, and I do believe that this is where the test server can benefit, but I also know through running countless public tests, you aren't always going to be getting the best results. 

 

All in all, I'm on a break from the game due to the drama around it more than the game itself, I enjoy my little tinkering and planning, but it'd be nice for some quiet some time. 

dude you hate me from before I had a clue you're a gm/pr or w/e, you were raging at me in gl years ago - my thought than was .. why the hell is the dye-guy randomly raging mad at me... figured later.. talking real stuff in forums is making your job hard, maybe, I don't even type that much in forums or in game at times. You need quest to 'hate' somebody, sure hate me, I don't care.

You on purpose made a personal joke from a post liked by somebody.. to troll same person.. that's not trolling? You think so?(rhetoric) Then you do it a second time to bold your actions? And you think you're not doing stuff and messing with somebody on purpose..

 

"Not liking AH patch" is an understatement, it was a massive fail change to the existing already bad system, but at least old one worked even though it was boring.. grind to 50, don't improve skill further, profit; also share free horses to friends and carry on.

I DID PLAY BALL - grinded from the day that it was released - I was at 55 AH.. and until few days ago.. I skilled up to 92, it's a ****** annoying and boring skill to grind, but I did work and did report some of the bugged things I've found in these threads. 

If anybody should be really really really - again really pissed off by the whole mess - that should be me, and you do not see me talk about it, do you? Did you see me rage how much time I've spend about it since the start and what the results from that were? Hours a day.. into that annoying and boring grind for nothing, it's still questionably working and half the mechanics even after patched are barely or working with exceptions.

And you do not see me talking about that, mostly I reply to things that other mention.

 

It's tragic mess of AH update.. + the speed and weight system to already slowest methods to travel in the game, if you do not see it.. try to play the game to see what it's changing and how bad it is.

You do not see me talk about how it is, what it is, or how I'd like it to be, because it's often pointless(player feedback about how mechanics feel is often ignored if it's working 'fine'). If I type hey guys - lets make high skills/QL and high casts/enchants make the game MORE fun, it wouldn't matter, in parts it is so, in other not so; why do you think most people do not grind skills, they do not see clear need to grind higher to improve their gameplay and have more fun.

 

I am also on a break from wurm, 55-92 is a soul-draining grind in that skill, and after grinding other things I could use a bit of time off any kind of mashing keys for hours.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I don't like bringing the fishing update into the mix, that was a very different animal.

 

Mechanically it was essentially the same, a barely half finished update dumped into the game without any testing, but the original intent was to honor a fallen comrade whom they could never compare to. They knew up front they couldn't match her work so they simply didn't try.

 

Here, everything from the bottom up is their baby and they messed every single aspect of it up and refuse to take responsibility.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Not to delve into history, the fishing update could always be spruced up a bit by increasing the rewards from using said skill so at least it's more fun and you know...more than 1% of the players actually bothering with that skill. Maybe having a mechanic to fish sunken treasures or sunked boats? Dunno, spitballing. 

 

Bugs from the AH update notwhistanding I am convinced that player frustration at this point is at an all time high due to not having communication from the devs themselves.

 

I know demona does all she can, and I do feel sympathy for the position she's in, aka taking all the flak from our frustration. But at this point I do hope a few of the devs realize we need to know some info from the horse's mouth so to speak else the outcome is we'll bleed out players again before the AH update is tweaked. This is a business decision that can have a long term impact solved by communication or a lack of towards the customers. Not to sound fatalistic or anything but I doubt Wurm is the kind of game that can afford losing customers at this point. 

Edited by elentari
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

-

Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Dinant said:

Personally I don't like bringing the fishing update into the mix, that was a very different animal.

 

Mechanically it was essentially the same, a barely half finished update dumped into the game without any testing, but the original intent was to honor a fallen comrade whom they could never compare to. They knew up front they couldn't match her work so they simply didn't try.

 

Here, everything from the bottom up is their baby and they messed every single aspect of it up and refuse to take responsibility.

I agree to much of the reasoning but not to all. Fishing update was great from beginning for many (me for example), it was not only announced, but demonstrated on the test server before. It had many edges but was sound from start. Those hating it had been in a privileged situation where they loved their afk pastime (which is completely understandable).

 

This update is botched in many ways but not in all. Donkey and mule are great new additions and features. Hay is at least ok (I had some troubles initially but came to like it), troughs are very good though may need a bit polishing, same for hitching posts. Breeding and trait transmission is outright awful. All speed nerfs are outright awful. Weight nerfs are, too.

 

Edit: And, worst of all, communication is a catastrophe beyond descript. It may appear a smart tactic to keep silent, and let Demona issue an appeasing statement here and then because they know we love Demona and do not want to embarrass or hurt her. In fact, it is not a smart tactic. Compare it to Keenan who always is willing to take the blame when something went wrong, and/or in detail describes the circumstances, even when he can be sure that a small percentage of the audience understand what he is telling. That earns him trust and respect (especially from those who understand). Everybody with a brain understands that things can go wrong, but the impression that those responsible are either hiding or not believing the audience being worthy for an explanation sows anger and dissent. 

Edited by Ekcin
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Cleared my head, sat back and looked at things again.

 

Asked why am I so unhappy with my breeding results?  The answer suddenly became clearer to me: Because I have gone from breeding horses with 5 traits I wanted and chose at 50AH, to 3 traits I want (and don't even control those with selection) and multiple traits I have zero interest in at 75 AH.

 

Why am I getting these results? Weighted points.

Just to get 3 speed traits I want, and one that essentially does nothing, but I need to have to get the extra boost if it happens to get the rare always on trait = 55 points (previously for 30 of my AH I could produce the same speed horse, and half of one of those also gave draught)

 

Just to get 3 draught traits I want, and one that does absolutely nothing (but assuming it will at some time be changed to do something, or that we have an incoming change that will add damage to hitched animal gear, so points used for something we used to have for nothing) = 65 points (previously 20 points, with some draught coming from what is included above)

 

With 75 AH, the very best (for whatever reason is unclear) the most points I seem to have to spend is actually 70, as at no point from 100's of foals have I gotten anything that is more than 5 points below my AH.

 

This means on draught horses the moment I roll the 3 traits I want (and the one I don't, but hope will become useful)... I have room for a 5 point useless trait. 75 AH for a 5 trait animal, 1 trait being one that I don't want, and have no control over at all, and another being a trait that does.... nothing.

 

On a speed horse once I get 4 speed traits, one of which is so limited in its practical use as to be meaningless on 99 out of 100 foals, I have 15 points left, and almost universally will get 2 or 3 traits that are of no use to me. I'm guessing that the sheer number of traits I don't want mean I roll one or two of those, and then I have no room in my cap to get one I actually do want.

 

So under almost all circumstance, despite having 25 more AH than before the update, I am producing animals that are of less use than before. The point costs of the other traits I might want (assuming I was happy to separate draught and speed in the first place - I'm not) mean they are are going to be excluded the moment I roll any of the other unwanted fluff traits, and there is absolutely no way for the breeder to control this, or on the rare occasion where they would actually get a trait they want..... they get randomed off on the next breeding, with no hereditary of anything other than the dominant pool.

 

This is all aside from offspring frequently having less traits in the dominant pool.

 

If this whole update wasn't a deliberate nerf, instead of being a QoL for higher AH breeders as it was claimed to be, the only solution I see is to go back to 10 points being a trait, and to get rid of the dominant pool breeding from a single parent, and reintroduce using both parents and common trait hereditary system. If all the new traits are to remain, there almost has to be some way for the breeder to control, or remove, which traits are available on breeding. Preference being, that the traits that don't apply to specific animal types, be removed from them.

 

Edit: +1 on the comments on how Keenan provides feedback after issues, and the need for something similar here.

Edited by Delone
clarification
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I'm in favor of a straight-up genetic trait hereditary system, as found in RL models of dominant and recessive traits odds of being inherited based upon the traits of both parents.

 

Aa + Bb -> AB or Ab or aB or ab

 

and all that....

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Delone said:

get rid of the dominant pool breeding from a single parent,

 

Also what I wrote a couple of weeks ago - the whole "dominant pool for trait selection" feature is the absolute worst part of this update!

Mutually exclusive categories contributes absolutely nothing of value to the breeding system, for anyone.

 

12 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Donkey and mule are great new additions and features.

 

As are the draft horse animals!

 

Revert the "dominant pool" mechanism for trait selection, simply let every trait be inherited by a certain probability and let the chips fall as they may.

AFTER establishing the traits of the foal, let it get the body shape of either a hot-blooded, cold-blooded, or all-round horse. 

 

We can have the types of horses without the silly rigid trait selection categories.

 

 

 

Edited by CistaCista
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tristanc said:

I know I'm in favor of a straight-up genetic trait hereditary system, as found in RL models of dominant and recessive traits odds of being inherited based upon the traits of both parents.

 

Aa + Bb -> AB or Ab or aB or ab

 

and all that....

 

Wouldn't that create mix of rng traits which is normal irl.. but kill the old cloning.. and in the game high skill used to give you a 'clone' which was the whole purpose to grind high, unless new meta is to get 2 halfgood horses to produce 1 new GOOD one BY CHANCE.. sounds disgusting to get 2 "mules" together for rng chance to get a good horse; it's a game.. real life applied to it will suck, if the skill isn't doing much why do we skill up, why do we do actions and do not ditch m/f horses in pens and have them do their thing seasonally and have rng rolls passively.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I'd like to see is the trait categories being creature specific, similar to how we have herbivore, carnivore, omnivore, hunter, etc. 

 

So you have the draft group, which would be bulls, bison, and cold blooded horses. They are the ones that can get draft specific traits. 

 

Then you have the speed group, which is hell horses, unicorns, and hot horses, they get the speed specific traits

 

Then you have the utility group, which is your sheep, pigs, cows, etc, they get the utility ones such as increased output and quality

 

When you add more traits to the available pool, but no real way to work towards them, you create a system that is incredibly RNG heavy, which does not leave a good feeling on the player. 

 

Trust me, I've spent WAY too long listening to everyones feedback, and the ultimate end is, if you want something in wurm, you should be able to put forward time and work towards that, RNG goes counter to that, because you could spend 10000 hours working on something and get nowhere, vs 1 hour and get a result. 

 

Wurm is about putting in time, effort and commitment to something, and the sense of achievement in seeing it done, that is what drives long term players, and that is what's bothering them right now with this update 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Archaed said:

What I'd like to see is the trait categories being creature specific, similar to how we have herbivore, carnivore, omnivore, hunter, etc. 

 

So you have the draft group, which would be bulls, bison, and cold blooded horses. They are the ones that can get draft specific traits. 

 

Then you have the speed group, which is hell horses, unicorns, and hot horses, they get the speed specific traits

 

Then you have the utility group, which is your sheep, pigs, cows, etc, they get the utility ones such as increased output and quality

 

When you add more traits to the available pool, but no real way to work towards them, you create a system that is incredibly RNG heavy, which does not leave a good feeling on the player. 

 

Trust me, I've spent WAY too long listening to everyones feedback, and the ultimate end is, if you want something in wurm, you should be able to put forward time and work towards that, RNG goes counter to that, because you could spend 10000 hours working on something and get nowhere, vs 1 hour and get a result. 

 

Wurm is about putting in time, effort and commitment to something, and the sense of achievement in seeing it done, that is what drives long term players, and that is what's bothering them right now with this update 

 

 

I agree with the fundamental idea behind this. The more I think about it, the less I agree with it. See my comment below.

I just don't quite agree with what's in what category. Plenty of people (me included) use hell horses for their carts, so I want to be able to get draft on hell horses, as an example.

 

I'd rather have multiple categories to the same animals.

 

For example:
Horses, hell horses, donkeys, mules - draft/speed/misc
Cow, bull, Bison - Draft//Output/Misc
Pigs, sheep - Output/Misc
.. etc.

But then again, this might kill the "freedom" of some players doing some funny and weird stuff which might be enjoyable for some people. Like riding a speed cow.

Edited by Borstaskor
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The tiny details don't matter, it's more the general idea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Honestly, with effort and time, you can build up a category-dominant herd from scratch (probably easier than building up a herd with very specific traits like people did with the old system..) and once you got a pair of the same category, chances are the offspring from that pair will be of that same category anyway, so I think it's fine to have all categories on all animals. The frustration seems to be towards the fact that there were very few draft-dominant horses/bison around and none to be found in the wild so building one from a speed-dominant herd is way harder than building one from scratch. Another issue is that offspring's are getting 3 speed traits and a few output/misc traits instead of all four speed traits.

I think there are some other ways to address the heavy RNG that are better/more effective. Such as:

  • raising the odds of passing on the traits the parents have (instead of randomly giving water trait to foals of a speed pair).
  • Give more offspring with close to capped traits (Plenty reports of 70 AH people getting a bunch of 40pts traited offspring's from 80pts parents and no inbreeding).
  • Higher prio on filling the trait pool with the dominant trait (all 4 speed traits) instead of getting like 3 speed and some output/misc traits. Honestly, it's fine with some RNG on what filler traits it uses to fill up the trait points but it should prioritize giving the dominant traits first. It would mean that getting "lucky" getting a 4speed horse with excellent misc traits would feel extra good while getting "unlucky" by getting a 4speed horse with pickup and other meme traits would still feel predictable/expected and fine (see the example of a getting 97coc cast vs a 105 coc cast).
  • Adding Elentari's idea in the comment below: If devs have time to add more spells, add a spell to remove positive traits.

 

Not all those changes are needed. But the very high amount of RNG is one of the big issues for a lot of breeders right now and those are just a few examples of ways to put more control in to the hands of the player.


Changes like these are a step in the right direction, rewarding people who put in effort in raising the skill:

  • Change: Reduced the chance overall to get negative traits using the new system, additional small reduction in negative trait chance is added based on breeding skill.

 

 

If I had make a single change and I had to be realistic and not change like 1758 things which would take up a lot of dev time, I'd make it so dominant traits are getting (close to) 100% prioritized.
Basically, if you have 70 AH and are breeding draft animals, then you'll get 65pts filled with draft traits most of the time and then get the last 5pts filled with something else.
If you have 90 AH and breeding the same herd, you'd get 65pts filled with draft and 25pts filled with other traits.

Positives with this change:

  • People don't feel nearly as punished for having high AH
  • People feeling like they have more control over what they get (Too much RNG currently)

Negatives:

  • Very difficult to switch direction and get a draft-focused offspring from a speed-focused breeding pair. But then again, this is a positive for a lot of people and can be worked around by talking to people and exchanging animals, as if it was an mmo.

 

 

Edited by Borstaskor
Formatting and added some a bunch of more stuffs
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As people have suggested in the past, this could easily be fixed with an "anti-genesis" spell. Lot of the issues seem the be the high number of misc traits thrown into the mix that raise the chance of said misc traits being inherited instead of speed / draft traits. 

Such as spell could remove those misc traits to get better breeders. This way people could shape their herds exactly how they'd want them. 


Don't want speed / draft traits on sheep? Anti-genesis them to keep only the output ones. 

Don't want output traits on horses? Anti - genesis to the rescue. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I really do not like 2 things.. hell horses aging and runing them.. as maintenance.. (it's irrelevant for riding on horseback and maintenance there is not needed, BUT REQUIRED for cart/wagon pulling..)

forcing bison/bulls as only cart/wagon pullers and leaving no horsegear as option seems restricting as speed options

 

whole cold/hot blooded creatures is more harmful IMO than bringing something good with strict separation of speed and draft traits, it's great for riding around on horseback, it's a low punch to cart/wagon pulling and the new weight nerf system adds to that..

 

--edit

bonuses like extra 10-20% for milking/shearing.. unless it's 50% seems like a faceslap.. it's just easier and better to get another animal or few, compared to collecting 10x traited to get 1-2x extra outputs..  

Edited by Finnn
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, elentari said:

As people have suggested in the past, this could easily be fixed with an "anti-genesis" spell. Lot of the issues seem the be the high number of misc traits thrown into the mix that raise the chance of said misc traits being inherited instead of speed / draft traits. 

Such as spell could remove those misc traits to get better breeders. This way people could shape their herds exactly how they'd want them. 


Don't want speed / draft traits on sheep? Anti-genesis them to keep only the output ones. 

Don't want output traits on horses? Anti - genesis to the rescue. 

 

or add ability to AH skill.. rather than bind to a priest class?

unless you also suggest fo priests being dependent to AH breeders somehow"

("death chance by rng unless they consume 20kg cheese a day?"😄 not exactly good example.. even as joke.. but what does AH character produce to trade and exchange to maintain it's need for services?)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Archaed said:

What I'd like to see is the trait categories being creature specific, similar to how we have herbivore, carnivore, omnivore, hunter, etc. 

 

So you have the draft group, which would be bulls, bison, and cold blooded horses. They are the ones that can get draft specific traits.

 

Then you have the utility group, which is your sheep, pigs, cows, etc, they get the utility ones such as increased output and quality

 

I'm breeding two groups of Bison, one for Draft and one for Output (Milk mostly). So putting Bisons just under Draft completely ignores the fact that you can milk them. But for all the other animal types you are indeed spot on, though I could imagine that some people would like to breed hell horses for draft traits purely for looks instead of it being optimal. So considering that, you probably don't want to remove those degrees of freedom from the current system.

 

 

I think the system should probably be a bit more deterministic. Currently we just pick 2 animals and use a breed action, we can't give any input on what we're breeding for. For example, would it be so bad if we'd get a popup screen showing the traits of both parents, allowing us to lock in a Categorie from one of the parents, and a certain amount of traits from both parents (depending on your AH, perhaps up to half of your skill worth of points?). Then let RNG determine whatever other traits are added to the animal.

 

This way there's still some rng, but players are also given a bit of control and having higher AH becomes a lot more useful.

Edited by Ecrir
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

 

I'm breeding two groups of Bison, one for Draft and one for Output (Milk mostly). So putting Bisons just under Draft completely ignores the fact that you can milk them. But for all the other animal types you are indeed spot on, though I could imagine that some people would like to breed hell horses for draft traits purely for looks instead of it being optimal. So considering that, you probably don't want to remove those degrees of freedom from the current system.

 

 

I think the system should probably be a bit more deterministic. Currently we just pick 2 animals and use a breed action, we can't give any input on what we're breeding for. For example, would it be so bad if we'd get a popup screen showing the traits of both parents, allowing us to lock in a Categorie from one of the parents, and a certain amount of traits from both parents (depending on your AH, perhaps up to half of your skill worth of points?). Then let RNG determine whatever other traits are added to the animal.

 

This way there's still some rng, but players are also given a bit of control and having higher AH becomes a lot more useful.

that's exactly the mess we have currently with picking traits from only 1 parent.. but spinned around taking 50+50% of both(to get 50% of points limited by your skill)... and filling the rest with rng upgrade to dominant traits or just mess of irrelevant traits - you do not want that

Edited by Finnn
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Skill this round: 70AH

Average Points: 56.8181

70 Point horses: 0

Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now