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Patch Notes 17/JUN/2021

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It would be handy to know the way the system is intended to work

 

But finn also needs to calm down. 

Edited by Archaed

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I'm no coder, and I haven't bred any critters either really to know how its going. I know it is frustrating, and I am sorry about that. The devs do read through comments, yes, and tweak things here and there when they can.

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I do know that yes, it is supposed to choose a single parent for dominant traits to come from. I do not know why you had so many unspent points, and that is strange to me.

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20 hours ago, Delone said:

how the hell is the game working out traits and available AH points to come up with a foal like this, with 45 points unspent from two 65 point parents with matching traits?

 

Your foal is not impressive but I don't see much that is strange there. 

 

First of all, you didn't get a single negative trait. Second, you only got one random neutral trait. This is what 95 % of all complaints in these threads have been about.

So congrats that they tweaked the code after all the complaints so negative traits are not so prevalent?

 

Second, the foal inherited both its dominant traits from its parents in this case, in contrast to random handout of dominant traits as has been a theory of late. 

 

So, the beef is with not getting max. points in your foals. It should be painfully obvious that we don't get the max points that our AH skill allows every time. It is merely an upper limit. We have seen in hundreds of foals that the variation is very large.

We can hate on that, but there is no mystery in it at this point. With that in mind, your foal is not radically different from getting 4-speed traits out of 5-speed parents before. Your parents were 3-speed, the foal is 2-speed, it's the same step back. 

 

Also, the 20-point draft trait will be eliminated *every single time* - you also knew that already. (I believe this has influence on the point sum you can expect, because as I theorised earlier that the secondary category traits are eliminated as the *last* step when your foal is conceived. Breeders should stop breeding the old mixed horses - mixed horses give lower point output. But this is just my theory. And the mixed horses are dying out quickly anyway)

 

I get plenty of foals that are near my AH limit. From the max-trait foals that you have posted in Freedom chat, I know that you do to.  Personally I hated that 95 % of my horses were exactly the same before this patch and I was about to close shop. Now the variation is huge.

 

I understand your question: did the devs even intend this high variation in point output, or not? 

 

My opinion is, that somewhere in the middle between no randomness and the current high randomness (of point sum) would make the best solution so that breeding is less boring for both casual and industrial breeders.

 

Edited by CistaCista

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1 hour ago, CistaCista said:

Second, the foal inherited both its dominant traits from its parents in this case, in contrast to random handout of dominant traits as has been a theory of late. 

 

Well actually, no it didn't. It inherited them from ONE of its parents. The other parent could have been traitless, and this foal could have still been the outcome.

 

It's not just draught that is excluded by having speed dominant parents, it's almost all of the old traits that had actual effects. No mention was made that the dominant pool would effectively stop the production of traits from other pools, and only allow some misc traits, some combat traits and a bunch of output traits that are pretty much useless. 

 

Out of over 100 foals, none with speed or draught dominant parents have had, spark, USH, tough or fight fierce.

 

Variety?

Before long almost every transport animal  will be 3 or 4 speed traits, one of which is practically useless, with the random smattering of worthless other traits,

or 3 or 4 draught traits one of which IS completely useless, with a random smattering of worthless traits.

 

Friendly - nobody I know uses tamed horses, bison, donkeys, etc

Vibrant - useless on horses, donkeys, hellhorses

It seems to pick stuff up - Does it? Not seen it happen once, do we have another bizarre trait like keen senses was where you have to work the easter egg out?

Graceful eater - less chance to reduce a growth stage, presumably only has an effect when grazing on crops. Woohoo.

 

Breeding? We are not breeding, the game, at random, selects ONE of the parents, and uses their dominant trait pool to generate a..... not clone. The offspring produced will seemingly randomly have more, the same or less of that dominant trait pool, and then out of nowhere, no type or hereditary involved, produce a couple of random traits.

 

We used to breed horses, selecting the parents was important to the outcome, and took work and a plan to do so. Now it's just mash stuff together, and see what the RNG, not the player, produces. In the past with 70 husbandry I was able to, over several generations, select for 7 specific traits I wanted, any seven and fairly reliably produce them. 

 

Variety was being able to breed for ANY of the available traits, in ANY combination you chose. We sure as hell don't have that variety now, just a bunch of preassigned pools, with very low to negligble chances of most combination, and zero control of what will be produced. I'll say it again, this is not a skill, it has become a lottery. 

 

As to it being a beef about getting max points...  I identified that this was the extreme, but that on almost all occasions I am getting less than the parents pool, and not once, in over 100 foals have I gotten an animal that has filled my available points. Breeding with the new horses?  The first round of foals after this update had that many negatives,  that as a breeder without a Fo priest (Which should not be a requirement) they were utterly useless. I stopped breeding horses, spent a week raising AH, and bred again after the next patch, which has fixed the negatives and almost none of those are at breeding age, but have clearly proven that the breeder is not in control of the outcome. A full month wasted, and almost every aspect worse than before the update still.

 

Devs remain silent.

A good 75% of the update was broken in my opinion.

Horses die at complete random (lost another horse at young adult, absolutely no reason, not even the killer trait that was introduced).

Many of our new "perks" for higher AH not working at all.

The new rare speed trait doesn't work, and it will be hard to tell if half of the others are or aren't working.

4 draught trait horses are slower than old 5 speeds were when  hitched by around 4-5kph, unless you get the rare (well that's would be assuming that they actually work, unlike the speed rare), and their speeds "stick".

Our ability to breed horses is 100% gone. The game does what it wants, we have no input other than saying which basic pool we want by using two parents that have that pool dominant.

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update

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3 hours ago, Delone said:

I'll say it again, this is not a skill, it has become a lottery. 

 

Right, but the trait lottery was not what your post was about, so not what I responded to.

 

I responded to you only getting 30 points in your foal ith 70+ AH, and whether that is intended or not, and if something should be done about it.

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Finn didn't like being told to calm down, so I'll make it more general. 

 

Wurm updates have always had a rocky history, from poor implementations, to requiring significant reworks. Feedback is great, and I have my own feedback as well (which I've not been throwing in every thread I can)

 

Most updates go through a period of tweaking, and working with feedback before they're right. Archaeology took two major updates until it was as good as it is. 

 

All I want to say is its perfectly fine to have issues with this update, and to want answers, but if you're assuming any intent on making this mechanic worse, then that's applying negative bias on things. 

 

Unless it's fishing. 

Edited by Archaed
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I think the relevant question at this point, which has been asked a few times indirectly, is: Is anything in this update actually working as intended?

 

We as players can't know this because the devs never communicate what they intend.

 

There's the small blurb released as the patch notes but those are usually pretty ambiguous and it's not clear to me if most of the current mechanics match that blurb. Some of it is just clearly marketing boiler plate not intended to be taken literally and some has no relation to any of the existing mechanics so it's hard to tell what to take seriously as a claim. 

 

The overall gist seems to be that they're trying to make breeding both more hands on and less random which is clearly false. It's still a drawback to have more AH skill than needed for mininum traits so there's no reason to grind the mechanical skill. Also now traits are more random than ever so there's no player skill involved at all anymore.

 

If this is the way they intended the patch to be, they should just say so and we are left with the choice to shut up about it or quit. 

 

Instead we have this suspicious silence with a few hints that they're willing to 'fix' it, but no details. What is 'broken' what are they trying to 'fix'. We don't know.

We can offer suggestions, we can post bugs, but without some guidance from above most of this is completely useless.

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21 hours ago, Archaed said:

It would be handy to know the way the system is intended to work

 

But finn also needs to calm down. (added later)

 

25 minutes ago, Archaed said:

Finn didn't like being told to calm down, so I'll make it more general. 

 

Wurm updates have always had a rocky history, from poor implementations, to requiring significant reworks. Feedback is great, and I have my own feedback as well (which I've not been throwing in every thread I can)

 

Most updates go through a period of tweaking, and working with feedback before they're right. Archaeology took two major updates until it was as good as it is. 

 

All I want to say is its perfectly fine to have issues with this update, and to want answers, but if you're assuming any intent on making this mechanic worse, then that's applying negative bias on things. 

 

Unless it's fishing. 

There's that 1st line.. and there's me liking the post because it's true.. we really really could use explanation what was intended, in-detail what and how many times something was changed and balanced.. we're probably not in mood to read that long kind of essay, but will still be really interesting read given the lack of any other dev post.

 

Than we have retro doing a personal troll reply in his post to just troll because I have liked the initial post he made before the edit, which is forum ToS violation, but who cares, right you're above that.

 

Then we have me reporting that .. and retro soon after that is splashing some more trolls, you sure lack entertainment.

 

From whole post I still do not see what you did or didn't like about the content, it's like you're still on the "PR job" and write empty posts with no meaning or use, but fill presence online for the sake of it.

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10 minutes ago, Dinant said:

I think the relevant question at this point, which has been asked a few times indirectly, is: Is anything in this update actually working as intended?

 

We as players can't know this because the devs never communicate what they intend.

 

There's the small blurb released as the patch notes but those are usually pretty ambiguous and it's not clear to me if most of the current mechanics match that blurb. Some of it is just clearly marketing boiler plate not intended to be taken literally and some has no relation to any of the existing mechanics so it's hard to tell what to take seriously as a claim. 

 

The overall gist seems to be that they're trying to make breeding both more hands on and less random which is clearly false. It's still a drawback to have more AH skill than needed for mininum traits so there's no reason to grind the mechanical skill. Also now traits are more random than ever so there's no player skill involved at all anymore.

 

If this is the way they intended the patch to be, they should just say so and we are left with the choice to shut up about it or quit. 

 

Instead we have this suspicious silence with a few hints that they're willing to 'fix' it, but no details. What is 'broken' what are they trying to 'fix'. We don't know.

We can offer suggestions, we can post bugs, but without some guidance from above most of this is completely useless.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Especially when you say that you love negative point traits, but point out that inbreeding and Genesis become a problem and then suddenly not only are they not worth negative points but they then become positive points. I don't know what the devs and idk what we want. It just feels like everyone is angrily yelling at a wall in hopes that it does something, and so many people have just given up not feeling like they yell loud enough. 

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Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update
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They don't they aren't considered a dominant category ive been breeding some for lols and they have been coming out clean because the entire system of inheriting traits has been defenestrated

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5 hours ago, Archaed said:

Finn didn't like being told to calm down, so I'll make it more general. 

 

Wurm updates have always had a rocky history, from poor implementations, to requiring significant reworks. Feedback is great, and I have my own feedback as well (which I've not been throwing in every thread I can)

 

Most updates go through a period of tweaking, and working with feedback before they're right. Archaeology took two major updates until it was as good as it is. 

 

All I want to say is its perfectly fine to have issues with this update, and to want answers, but if you're assuming any intent on making this mechanic worse, then that's applying negative bias on things. 

 

Unless it's fishing. 

This is a major update, rolled out as having been trialled and tweaked. The playerbase doesn't know much about the intended outcomes, but what is happening is that this update mucks up ppls current breeding and offspring which will negatively impact future plans even if major changes are made some time in the future. (When, we also don't know.)  Was any of these changes even trialled and tweaked at all? By whom and for how long? If it is still in the testing phase, given how profound the changes are, wouldn't it have been better to leave it on a testing server instead of implementing it system wide and forcing disenfranchised customers to pay for your experimentation with their items and time? 

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At this point I take the continued silence as it seems to be....there is no communication coming. There is no further clearing away of this mud. We now have a messed up AH system that we have to learn to work with and around. There has been no communication from the team addressing our concerns and at this point I don't feel like there is any coming. I hope I am wrong, I hope the next post after this is a dev explaining everything or...something.

 

We are quickly reaching the one year anniversary of the launch of NFI, I would think there are accounts that will be coming up for payment around this time, and I know I can say that I know some people who won't be resubbing because of this mess. And by mess I don't mean the AH update, I mean the complete silence and lack of direction and communication from the team concerning the AH update. People who want to sub for another year, but at this point they will pay via silvers if they want to stay prem or even some who are moving on to other things.

 

We have now gone 10 days since the last patch and almost a month since the update and we are back to silence mode. If there are no answers, if you don't know, at least communicate that to the player base. There are many players spending many hours of their own time testing and trying to figure out this new system, they are asking for help, asking for direction, asking for anything, and they are getting silence.

 

I hope I'm wrong, I hope there is something to address the concerns and confusion people have, like someone else said, it feels like we are just yelling at a wall now, but we are paying to do it....I guess at some point we have to ask our selves who is the fool in this situation.

 

As always,

 

Happy Wurming

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15 hours ago, Finnn said:

 

There's that 1st line.. and there's me liking the post because it's true.. we really really could use explanation what was intended, in-detail what and how many times something was changed and balanced.. we're probably not in mood to read that long kind of essay, but will still be really interesting read given the lack of any other dev post.

 

Than we have retro doing a personal troll reply in his post to just troll because I have liked the initial post he made before the edit, which is forum ToS violation, but who cares, right you're above that.

 

Then we have me reporting that .. and retro soon after that is splashing some more trolls, you sure lack entertainment.

 

From whole post I still do not see what you did or didn't like about the content, it's like you're still on the "PR job" and write empty posts with no meaning or use, but fill presence online for the sake of it.

Because I don't feel the need to jump into every thread and continually harass the team about things I don't like. I've seen you post the same statements about the update across 4-5 threads, and that's just exhausting. 

 

I don't think editing posts violates ToS, you do need to calm down, your liking my post made me realise that it was continuing to rile you up in your anti-update furore, and I wanted to address that. 

 

I'm not splashing trolls, I'm not doing anything, just pointing out that Archaeology took two major updates and became one of the most fun skills out there. This absolutely does need work, and communication, but it's not some tragic plot to destroy the fun in animal husbandry, it's just struggling with the bridge between intent and result. I do believe it will come around in time, and I do believe that this is where the test server can benefit, but I also know through running countless public tests, you aren't always going to be getting the best results. 

 

All in all, I'm on a break from the game due to the drama around it more than the game itself, I enjoy my little tinkering and planning, but it'd be nice for some quiet some time. 

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I'm not sure how many more times you guys would like me to say that it's being worked on, but it is. Having said that, if things were going completely as intended, they would not be being worked on. I personally am not the one working on it, so I cannot give details, and I am sorry that I cannot communicate in a way that you would like because of that. We are aware that there have been issues, and we hear you guys and what you are saying, I promise!

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Spoiler

 

its not communicating if they are setting you up to fail rather then giving a basic summary of what they are working on. I am not even asking for a timeline. just clarity what isnt intended and the preferred outcome I am absolutly not the only person asking. you are not who we are asking to communicate. You are in the same boat we are. half your posts come across angry and frustrated with us because they ( I assume) dont tell you anything. The closest we got to real information was you pointing out that testing takes time. that they are working with a breeder and you overheard discussions on various topics so that must be things they are working on not things they told you. Things they talked about around you.

 

they are hanging you out to dry and calling it a day. If you are good with that. That's your prerogative.

Soon. being worked on... this is an answering machine recording.

 

do you know how many times this has been said to this community and not followed through on? You cant expect us to take it in good faith anymore that takes trust and thats well and used up. They admitted to dropping the ball on communication then literally went back to radio silence after. We dont want you to communicate you have nothing of value to communicate because they do not give you anything to say. We want them to communicate. . 

"Being worked on" is like a parent going "maybe later" or "we will see" "We'll tell you when you are older". Its to get us to be quiet when they dont feel like dealing with the response they get when the community responds.

 

we have asked them what is and isnt working so we can provide ql feedback.

we have asked for a basic clarification of some of the mechanics and weather they work as intended.

We have done testing ( some of it high level testing even). But hell if we know if its useful since we are not even getting ya that helps keep reporting things like that. Or a nope thats working as intended but we could use more data on [subject].

 

we already told you that saying its being worked on isnt communication. We are giving tons of data and getting silence. but I am sure they profit off it. The rest of the community does at least. they can see what we have already worked. intended or otherwise and thats the only reason I keep posting.

 

If this was a job I was working I would have my two weeks notice in for the level of hell they expect you to manage without giving you the tools to manage it. You are a stalking horse and I genuinely hope you understand very little of the lack of communication anger is directed at you.

You are the only phone we have and its getting a busy signal and sometimes we get an answering machine. an answering machine with a canned message is not communication. I dont know how many ways the community needs to explain that a busy signal or recorded answering machine isnt communication. eventually people are going to hang up and move to a different service. there is only so long Sunk Cost Fallacy is going to keep people playing. I want people to keep playing. but I also want a game that doesn't abuse its community by making them pay money to test their product code. Bugs are expected. But this is far and above basic bug testing. And yet many of us do the testing anyway. We do this because we love the game the community or any number of reasons.

 

On 6/26/2021 at 11:44 PM, Archaed said:

All in all, I'm on a break from the game due to the drama around it more than the game itself, I enjoy my little tinkering and planning, but it'd be nice for some quiet some time. 

 

I don't think editing posts violates ToS, you do need to calm down, your liking my post made me realise that it was continuing to rile you up in your anti-update furore, and I wanted to address that. 

 

if you are not participating in the patch or game because you need a break. if you dont want to interact with the drama, stay off the forums. He has a right to be angry with you.

Also may I add you calling him out regardless of the reason would Rile Him Up More. And look you got a bonus riled up person talking to you now. I may not like how he posts at times but I do him the respect of being civil with my responses. I dont feel the need to be so with you that would mean respect and being respected. I mean it cant be hard to realize that telling someone to calm down infront of god knows how many people on this forum would incite a defensive if not aggressive response. why are you posting you are on a break from the game. If you dont like how a single player on the forums is interacting with the forums Fine Stop inciting drama by targeting people that garbage goes both ways. you are no longer a community manager quite making things worse.

 

You are adding to the drama and inciting it. Please leave.

 

we shouldn't need 2 patches and a major overhaul to a (new)feature for it to be reasonably functional. IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO TEST CODE. WE ARE NOT PAYING TO BE TESTERS WE ARE PAYING TO PLAY A GAME. There is a test server use it tell people when you put patches on it. Something can be not fun but functional. Bugs that kill animals, destroy breeding stock, traits that fail to activate or get stuck, telling us color gets inherited more often only for it literally to go the other direction? Sudden terran changes from animal grazing? animals not eating until they fast increase disease and death on deed despite ratio, the whole there will be a delay but you will get back to were you were lie. Speed and how broken it is across all animals/vehicle and I am not talking about the actual speed. but how it behaves now. Not fun is learning the rng traits in a skill based game and learning to deal with them. assuming even that even works and we give the benefit of the doubt. Is it is working as intended? everything else I listed is NON functional according to how the patch notes list its functions.

 

 

honestly I am done being nice about it too.

 

 

Getting a horse to breedable is 20 days.

20 real time.

20 days of premium:

to have AH high enough to get all the draft traits.

20 days of uncertainty bare minimum. Players have to hope and pray the draft traits work as intended on horses which given the way things have been buggy so far is laughably naive to hope for. hope and pray that their premium for the month is respected.

20 days x3 60 days for 3 generations minimum. to test.

 

if you want us to test. patch the game and give everyone 1 free month that should catch most of the bugs. you wont be paying us to beta test. but at least we are not paying for the privilege of being forced to beta test without consent.

 

 

Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update
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1 hour ago, DemonaNightshade said:

I'm not sure how many more times you guys would like me to say that it's being worked on, but it is. Having said that, if things were going completely as intended, they would not be being worked on. I personally am not the one working on it, so I cannot give details, and I am sorry that I cannot communicate in a way that you would like because of that. We are aware that there have been issues, and we hear you guys and what you are saying, I promise!

 

Nobody is asking you to say "it's being worked on" that's as meaningless as saying the sky is blue.

 

What we want are details. X part is being worked on. Y is working as intended. Z is not working as intended but not currently being worked on and unlikely to be fixed.

 

As paying customers you owe us actual information, a rollback of this abortion, or some of our money back.

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53 minutes ago, Yserin said:

You are in the same boat we are. half your posts come across angry and frustrated with us because they ( I assume) dont tell you anything.

 

I am not frustrated with the players. Nor am I frustrated with the devs. They have been working on things, discussing things, and trying to set things straight and I do see that. I have mentioned in multiple places spanning multiple posts that I have been frustrated with the new breeding system producing less than desirable animals just as you all are, especially since most of my play time has involved collecting and breeding creatures and building my deed around my champion zoo and breeding pens. Not to mention having a decently successful animal market prior to this. But, I also fully expected to be at least a little bit bummed with that, knowing that my animal husbandry is only 50 and I'd need to grind it up more after all the times I've tried to avoid getting more skill in it.

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2 minutes ago, DemonaNightshade said:

 

I am not frustrated with the players. Nor am I frustrated with the devs. They have been working on things, discussing things, and trying to set things straight and I do see that. I have mentioned in multiple places spanning multiple posts that I have been frustrated with the new breeding system producing less than desirable animals just as you all are, especially since most of my play time has involved collecting and breeding creatures and building my deed around my champion zoo and breeding pens. Not to mention having a decently successful animal market prior to this. But, I also fully expected to be at least a little bit bummed with that, knowing that my animal husbandry is only 50 and I'd need to grind it up more after all the times I've tried to avoid getting more skill in it.

 

So wait, you actually do have all the information we're asking for and just refuse to disclose it?

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Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update
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I did not say I have exact details as to what is being worked on in exact terms. Please don't put words in my mouth. I've mentioned before that I know they are discussing things and working on things. I have put in suggestions for changes, as well, aimed at helping animal husbandry make more sense and be more reliable. I do not know if they will be used, or what things will be changed exactly, but I do know that they know this isn't working out for people and have been working on a solution.

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1 minute ago, DemonaNightshade said:

I did not say I have exact details as to what is being worked on in exact terms. Please don't put words in my mouth. I've mentioned before that I know they are discussing things and working on things. I have put in suggestions for changes, as well, aimed at helping animal husbandry make more sense and be more reliable. I do not know if they will be used, or what things will be changed exactly, but I do know that they know this isn't working out for people and have been working on a solution.

 

If even they admit, if only internally, that this isn't working, the solution is simple.

 

Eat the damned crow and revert the patch.

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Edited by Yserin
no longer playing, Per the mismanagment of AH update
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