Gumbert

An Epic Migration

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Posted (edited)

The devs have proven they are capable of doing some fancy things, and while they strive to add new content and update existing features there is one horse that has never received a proper burial.

 

Epic.

While I expect this post to be met with some ridicule and hatred, please take a few breaths after reading and gather your thoughts before commenting.

 

The Epic cluster may once have been a thriving arena of PvP and the place to be to become a demigod but is now little more than a ghost.

Nothing is gained by keeping it separated from the Southern Freedom Isles, also nothing is truly lost keeping it separated. It is high time the Elevation server was retired while Desertion, Serenity and Affliction (the “Home” servers) were migrated to connect to Chaos with the skill curve and other Epic mechanics removed.

 

Skills-wise a snapshot would be taken like the previous Epic to Freedom skill transfer where players are left with x3 next to their skills.

Travel to and from the “Home” servers would initially be restricted to using a portal like it currently is for NFI travelling to Defiance. Or if it was supported by the Devs then the “Home” servers would be reachable via sailing but only to/from Chaos. To reach the rest of the Southern Freedom Isles from a “Home” server a player would have to travel to Chaos first.

 

 

 

If I have overlooked something simple please politely point it out and help improve upon this.

 

Just to clarify I'm actually from SFI.

Edited by Gumbert
clarifying which cluster I'm on.

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Cut skills and characteristics in half and then some and you've got yourself a reasonable transfer. we aren't talking about cutting 99 down to 49.xx we're talking about cutting 99 down to 90, because thats half of the time it takes 

 

everyone was warned 4 years ago that the transfer would be the last. since then epic has received a 30% boost for characteristics on top of the already twice as fast skill gain for everything, and in some cases for certain skills the skill gain per hour is absolutely outrageously faster. do I care about the market? no, no I don't. But at the end of the day my time isn't worth half of yours

 

that aside, I whole heartedly agree epic needs to be removed and the playerbase consolidated, people just need to understand how the skill system works differently on epic and understand they aren't "getting ######" they are just getting the same worth per hour spent as the rest of the game obides by

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Im originally a freedom player, but play on epic since they did the skill merge.

Currently as one of few peeps that play on epic daily and own deeds there, I vote a big nono to this suggestion.

Honestly u peeps need to stop wanting just more and more. Epic is what is. As plati said up there. after they did the merge, u knew what epic would be. If u choose to keep playing on the servers, then play. If u want to move to freedom or chaos, move! Its your problem, not every1 elses.
I agree that said cluster needs some kind of boot to increase the player base, but pretty much delete epic and moving it to freedom really doesnt sound like a way to go. that would make me disband any deeds I currently own on epic and move all my crap to Pristine lol. Why having a home deed on a home server when u got pve right next to u where no1 can even attack or grief u.
If this is ur idea of keeping epic alive, leave it as is please. thanks

 

Big menus one -1

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Posted (edited)

Killing any incentive to play epic as it happened years ago then adding skillgain and faster timers is akin to chopping off someone's legs then saying to him "Hey, we got this new discount for you at our local gym treadmills, sign up now!".

 

You want to give people a reason to play Epic? Then give them incentives to do so. Give them a two way skill transfer, give Epic unique features to make it stand out from the rest of the servers, give people a damn reason to bother playing there. 

 

All I see is design-dissonance when it comes to Epic. Devs update the game to make Epic skill / timers faster yet at the same time they also remove any justification to play there. Guys we can't have it both ways. 

 

Either we go with Option A, aka Close down Epic and be done with the joke and go all the way about it. (I hate half hearted measures or pretending there's no dirt under the carpet)

 

A few reasons people don't play Epic due to how it was treated for the past few years: 

 

1. Yeah we'll give everyone a reason to leave Epic (skill transfer 1 way to freedom).

2. Yeah we won't give Epic any new updates.

3. We won't make mention of Epic in our steam release NOR allow new players to actually start out on Epic when they first make an account. First they have to make a character on SFI then and only then can they take a portal to Epic. 

4. Ignore requests from players to address the "uniques" situation on Epic that keep bashing deeds left and right for years, don't make them static. have them wander around the map causing trouble.

5. Change the Valrei - mission system so the rewards are barely worth it.

7. How many Elevation resets have we had so far? I lost count. 

8. Ignore any suggestions made by players to improve Epic or have something done about it for half a decade...

 

or we go with option B (again we have to commit to it, no half measures).

 

1. We give players reasons to play Epic, such as a two way skill transfer or we connect the Epic servers to Chaos or Freedom (as Pve servers). 

2. We pretend Epic exists and players can start playing there from the get go using the tutorial portal. 

3. We give Epic regular updates. 

4. We give Epic CA's , yes there aren't any community assistants for Epic, which is downright shameful since any new player will be completely lost when asking questions. Ghost town syndrome will lead to any potential player quitting from the start. 

5. Have dragons/ hatchling give the same amount of scales / hide as on Freedom, why does Epic get lesser drops? 

 

Usual rant ended. No one cares. 

Edited by elentari
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14 hours ago, platinumteef said:

Cut skills and characteristics in half and then some and you've got yourself a reasonable transfer.

 

if being polite - i would just tell you "get f...d"

 

Either 1 to 1 transfer with curve removal or nothing.. Cutting skills for what? Do you think everyone in epic is running around with all skills at 99 with 99 body stats? get real dude. These prayers moved to freedom years ago or died. The ones that play here running around with 50-60 body stats max, in comparison to freedom players that the majority are 80+ on SFI.. 

 

Its like suggesting merging epic into freedom, but cutting all freedoms' stats in half and applying the curve. how's that for the deal?

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7 hours ago, Tuga said:

Im originally a freedom player, but play on epic since they did the skill merge.

Currently as one of few peeps that play on epic daily and own deeds there, I vote a big nono to this suggestion.

..

I agree that merging the home servers to Chaos would be a harsh step. Personally, I did not find the time so far to do more on Epic than building a rowboat ;) twice, and creating bit better armour than my starter set due to my Freedom skills. I consider Epic a great area for hunting and exploring, would not mind some PvP casually. As a determined carebear I refuse to risk my hard earned affis to gankers on Chaos, and shall prolly never go there. Losing my portal to the other world would deprive me. Once I am done with my Freedom business (ok in 10 years) I might do Epic much more 😎.

 

But honestly, for casuals, a skill retransfer from Epic would be a necessity. Demonstrably, participation on Jackal collapsed when the devs did not get skill transfer sorted. It may be irrational, but all of the meritocratic system of Wurm revolves around skillgain.

 

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2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

 

Its like suggesting merging epic into freedom, but cutting all freedoms' stats in half and applying the curve. how's that for the deal?

 

You are right. Doing this is about as bad of an idea as a 1 to 1 transfer from a cluster that takes half the work, dude. 

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15 hours ago, elentari said:

We give Epic CA's , yes there aren't any community assistants for Epic, which is downright shameful since any new player will be completely lost when asking questions. Ghost town syndrome will lead to any potential player quitting from the start. 

There are few, me included : )

 

Truth to be told, I have some work after Steam release, helping some lost souls that tried to start on Epic, but then, after few weeks almost none.

 

And like Skatyna said, most old players moved to freedom on skill transfer period, rest left this game anyway.

 

Both way skill transfer, on fair terms ofc, would allow some people to play here, couse currently, that makes no sense for most players.

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So those of you that still live on Epic don't want any merger with freedom? What then do envision happening with it?

Up to a point I can understand some of the reluctance. Both sides have worked hard for their skills just on different mechanics.

If not for a merge or some drastic change what hope is there that anything will improve for the Epic cluster?

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1 hour ago, Gumbert said:

So those of you that still live on Epic don't want any merger with freedom? What then do envision happening with it?

Up to a point I can understand some of the reluctance. Both sides have worked hard for their skills just on different mechanics.

If not for a merge or some drastic change what hope is there that anything will improve for the Epic cluster?

I’ve wanted a merge of Epic Home servers with Freedom Isles, and moving Elevation and Chaos to a separate PvP cluster, I have commented on this over the years, even before the skills transfer.

 

Both my ‘main’ characters play on Freedom and Epic currently, one normal, and one priest character, roles reversed depending on cluster, (zenity is normal on Freedom, priest on Epic, Jahpeople is normal on Epic, priest on Freedom).

 

I’m no longer sure a merge is viable now, following the skill adjustments, it was confusing enough during the first transfer, but now any transfer would have to take account of skills gained on freedom which had been transferred to epic 1:1 since any simple formula would reduce those skills below their freedom gains, even if those skills were never changed on Epic, the one way freedom to epic skills transfer, meant to boost population, could in fact penalise the freedom character by reducing their skills below their original freedom skills. After all, it’s not as if people have exclusively played characters only on one cluster or the other, it’s much more likely, especially over the more recent years, that many have played, and gained skills on freedom and epic clusters, making clean separation of skills and adjustments for transfer a minefield for edge cases and errors. 
 

Any discussion now will get bogged down in the differences between freedom and epic skill systems mixed with historic skill change adjustments and freedom skill transfers, it might be better to either leave it as it is, or simply realise that despite wishing to live in the past, it’s time to give up on nostalgia and realise Epic has failed, and needs closed down, and no matter how much I have enjoyed Epic, and in particular Serenity, without people it might as well be a Wurm Unlimited server run on my  own PC…

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Zenity said:

it’s time to give up on nostalgia and realise Epic has failed, and needs closed down, and no matter how much I have enjoyed Epic, and in particular Serenity, without people it might as well be a Wurm Unlimited server run on my  own PC…

Been feeling that for 4 years. At this point it's like keeping a 90 year old comatose patient with 5 types of cancer alive just for the sake of? What exactly? 


We've seen that neglecting epic for 4 years straight doesn't do anything. It won't magically resurrect itself. Will another 4 years change anything? Willing to bet all my silvers it won't change. 

 

I'd even argue that by keeping it open, and have stated in the past it does more damage to Wurm than closing it. Players ocassionaly spawn there, write in chat or local, no one answers, see that it's a dead game and that's a player/ customer lost for good. There are a million games out there wurm competes with for a players time and money. Having dead servers doesn't do Wurm any favors. 

 

As for a skill transfer, all I can think of is that when the first skill transfer happened, a copy of your Epic skills was sent to freedom with the x3 skillgain feature. I'd imagine all Epic players that didnt go over to freedom and still grinded on Epic can have their difference between the skill transfer from years ago till now be quantified with the same formula and updated to freedom. 

 

Ex: Say player Albert had blacksmithing at 70 on Epic at the point of the skill transfer. On freedom he'd have something like 50 skill with a 3x skillgain back to 70. Assume he decides to continue to play Epic and now he has 90 BS on Epic. Simply update his skillgain on Epic to Freedom, which if I recall right, a 90 skill on Epic was quantified as 70 skill on freedom with 3x till 90 BS in this example. It wouldn't be a perfect transition. I don't think any transition would be perfect at this point. The window was lost the moment it was decided it would be a 1 way transfer (which all of us perceived as a sinking boat, yet no one had the decency to put a tor###### in that boat to give it an honourable send off).

 

I've played on Epic for 7 years, made friendships, most of my fun experiences were there, the drama, the pvp, the grief, frustration, wacky stories, etc. It hurts wandering around the map now and seeing mighty colossi decayed and gone cause no one even logged in to repair them. Guard towers vanished due to decay. But I'd be fine if it closed down, at least we'd have some closure about it and look forward to other experiences in Wurm. 

 

You know a server is really dead when colossi and towers are gone, it's surreal as if from a Tolkien story.

Edited by elentari
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8 hours ago, Gumbert said:

So those of you that still live on Epic don't want any merger with freedom?

 

No one says we don't want a merge, but surely not a merge to shaft us up again. Why do we have to loose skills? to loose the gear? to loose the progress? deeds? etc? Why they just cant give a fair 1 to 1 full transfer for the remaining 10 players? what harm would that do to freedom? none. More than anything i only see few stubborn and delusional players who think that chaps on Epic put so much less effort than the rest and would turn out to be supermans on freedom if they got 1 to 1 lmao. 

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9 hours ago, Skatyna said:

 

No one says we don't want a merge, but surely not a merge to shaft us up again. Why do we have to loose skills? to loose the gear? to loose the progress? deeds? etc? Why they just cant give a fair 1 to 1 full transfer for the remaining 10 players? what harm would that do to freedom? none. More than anything i only see few stubborn and delusional players who think that chaps on Epic put so much less effort than the rest and would turn out to be supermans on freedom if they got 1 to 1 lmao. 

 

Epic players got an extremely fair transfer many years ago. You chose to knowingly waste your time there. Move on.

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9 hours ago, Skatyna said:

 

No one says we don't want a merge, but surely not a merge to shaft us up again. Why do we have to loose skills? to loose the gear? to loose the progress? deeds? etc? Why they just cant give a fair 1 to 1 full transfer for the remaining 10 players? what harm would that do to freedom? none. More than anything i only see few stubborn and delusional players who think that chaps on Epic put so much less effort than the rest and would turn out to be supermans on freedom if they got 1 to 1 lmao. 

 

No, not a merge to screw you over. I don't have an easy answer for the skills transfer because some players would feel hard done by whatever option was decided upon.

As for gear and things, this is why I said connect the home servers to chaos. That way you still have anything that's not stuck on elevation.

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3 hours ago, platinumteef said:

Epic players got an extremely fair transfer many years ago. You chose to knowingly waste your time there. Move on.

 

People not wanting to start over from scratch or waste a year of their life just to catch up to their skills (it took me 2 years of on and off grinding just to get most of my skills back) is understandable. My own transition to Freedom was a difficult one, starting from scratch again, with only starter tools. 

 

Also your sentence is double edged. It has the implication that players/ devs knew Epic would be a waste of time, yet they kept it open. Does that strike you as a fair and moral way to treat your players, albeit a small fraction of the total playerbase? 

 

Rolf's policy of "we won't close Epic as long as there is a single player playing there has the last stand fallacy". Reminds me of that japanese soldier that kept fighting for 20 years after Japan surrendered. Statistically there will always be one player that plays on Epic. Even if others quit, someone else will eventually come back to Epic to play. But is that really quality of life gameplay or more akin to a small WU server of a few friends? In which case, is it even a pvp server anymore ? The reality is Rolf doesn't have a say in things anymore and it wouldn't be the first time Rolf or the devs said one thing and did another. There's precedent and let's not treat Rolf's words as the ten commandments. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, I just don't agree with some of his statements. 

 

Quality of life on Epic is abysmal. Too few players to do difficult missions, too few to kill uniques unless we spam a lot of alts (cause spamming alts to enjoy a game is fun, right?),  chat is mostly dead, no trade happens, getting enchants is difficult as hell since there aren't many priests left,  the only significant update Epic got in the fast few years was an Elevation reset and kingdom animals no longer attack you (gorillas, hyenas, boars) and yet somehow management decided we have to keep this crap qol gameplay open for...what reasons? 
 

If we acknowledge it is a waste of time, we also acknowledge the paying customers on Epic are suckers and we treat them as second class citizens. The fact that we still have only a 1 way transfer is testament to this. Despite premium being valid for all servers for the same price, seems Epic players get less for their money than someone playing on Freedom or NFI. 

 

And there's the rub. How players feel treated.

 

So how about we fix this issue by allowing the players that pay the same coin as you or I to join the rest of the playerbase instead of playing in ghost town mode? That's just my perspective. 

 

We've all seen what separating people on multiple clusters does. How about we start consolidating for a change and see how that goes. 

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nobody is telling you that they are against a transfer, but have realistic expectations for it

 

and yes, people were told by devs/retro/everyone that the epic transfer was the last one to happen due to the changing of mechanics. do I agree with it? no. epic should have just been shut down in 2017 but code club continues to make horrendous development decisions one after another. you said it yourself, you knew the server was a failure as soon as the changes were made, as did the rest of the game but here you are arguing against this point no more than a day after admitting it? idk bro

 

your frustration is misplaced, I'd love to see it migrated, but you shouldn't expect to be getting 100 platesmithing on freedom after doing half the work freedom players did to get there

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35 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

nobody is telling you that they are against a transfer, but have realistic expectations for it

 

and yes, people were told by devs/retro/everyone that the epic transfer was the last one to happen due to the changing of mechanics. do I agree with it? no. epic should have just been shut down in 2017 but code club continues to make horrendous development decisions one after another. you said it yourself, you knew the server was a failure as soon as the changes were made, as did the rest of the game but here you are arguing against this point no more than a day after admitting it? idk bro

 

your frustration is misplaced, I'd love to see it migrated, but you shouldn't expect to be getting 100 platesmithing on freedom after doing half the work freedom players did to get there

 

True, but with the curve working against you at higher skills, not sure that is entirely the case for every skill tho. By the same logic, we should have gotten significantly increased characteristics in body stamina as well since on Epic the vast majority of players had less body stam than freedom people, but now it's a moot point. I am ok with a lower body stamina or regrinding skills. 

 

However I am not ok with having players being treated differently on different clusters even though they are equally paying customers. 

 

What I am concerned about is the lack of any direction. I'd rather the devs commit to any option but at least hear them say "yeah , we'll do this because it's time to do it".  Migrated, closed down, anything at this point, I just want to see some decision making happening instead of keeping dead servers open with an uncertain future and no planned updates or roadmap for anything. 

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@elentarithis dude is just tripping, no matter what you say to him. 100 platesmithing.. lmao, doesn't even know what he's talking about.. to hit 100 on freedom is easier than Epic by a 100 times. on epic you feel like ur grinding 99+ skill every time passed 80 actual due to curve.. Sure timers are faster so what? more than anything it should be faster for newer players to catch up to the point in this game anyways! Faith? Channelling? do we get 12 prayers a day @platinumteef? Do we get half the time cast timers? How come we actually get LESS body stats due to the fact that all main skills (like weapon skills) to grind it go up so fast that we loose on the characteristic gains? How come lockpicking is so much easier to do on freedom than Epic? Is fighting skill gain doubled compared to freedom? last i checked it wasn't. Do we get to kill mobs twice faster than freedom? its a NO also. Do we get to stock up items faster that we would have to leave them behind? like being unable to kill no uniques and even we do we get HALF the loot you get on freedom. Yet, we would still have to loose it? Do meditation paths take half the time to reach? the list could go on and on and Devs will never have years to work out correct formulas for every single skill there is.

 

And once again, as i said, all players moved to freedom 5 years ago or whenever that transfer was. the ones that play here, well vast majority anyways, didn't even know about no transfer. Myself included. i came back to wurm 2 years ago, started from ZERO as all my old accounts were sold out 10 years ago. I didn't know about no transfers being done, started fresh on epic as i always played epic. Do i ever agree to some nerfed transfer? hell NO! 

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Merge, not close. 

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I don't want to play on freedom, I want to play on Epic.

 

Allow people to play here by making both way skill transfers, so they don't feel like they just gonna waste time here.

 

If merging with something then with Chaos only, do not convert our lands to freedom.

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2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

@elentarithis dude is just tripping, no matter what you say to him. 100 platesmithing.. lmao, doesn't even know what he's talking about.. to hit 100 on freedom is easier than Epic by a 100 times. on epic you feel like ur grinding 99+ skill every time passed 80 actual due to curve.. Sure timers are faster so what? more than anything it should be faster for newer players to catch up to the point in this game anyways! Faith? Channelling? do we get 12 prayers a day @platinumteef? Do we get half the time cast timers? How come we actually get LESS body stats due to the fact that all main skills (like weapon skills) to grind it go up so fast that we loose on the characteristic gains? How come lockpicking is so much easier to do on freedom than Epic? Is fighting skill gain doubled compared to freedom? last i checked it wasn't. Do we get to kill mobs twice faster than freedom? its a NO also. Do we get to stock up items faster that we would have to leave them behind? like being unable to kill no uniques and even we do we get HALF the loot you get on freedom. Yet, we would still have to loose it? Do meditation paths take half the time to reach? the list could go on and on and Devs will never have years to work out correct formulas for every single skill there is.

 

And once again, as i said, all players moved to freedom 5 years ago or whenever that transfer was. the ones that play here, well vast majority anyways, didn't even know about no transfer. Myself included. i came back to wurm 2 years ago, started from ZERO as all my old accounts were sold out 10 years ago. I didn't know about no transfers being done, started fresh on epic as i always played epic. Do i ever agree to some nerfed transfer? hell NO! 

 

Clearly you don't understand the fundamentals of basic skilling and are a lost cause. Im sincerely sorry that you got played by codeclubs poor development decisions. Enjoy your stay, you know, the one on epic. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wilczan said:

I don't want to play on freedom, I want to play on Epic.

I get your point, and agree that if any, Epic should be merged to Chaos. I would hate it though as I love to portal to Epic, seldom as I do it. And ignore Platinumteef's rants, remind me Gladys, bragging no substance.

 

Right another idea: As the devs are so slow with everything concerning Epic, the cluster merge may be complete before a decision about Epic. Wouldn't it a better idea to merge Epic with Defiance then instead of Chaos?

Edited by Ekcin

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2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

lmao, doesn't even know what he's talking about.. to hit 100 on freedom is easier than Epic by a 100 times. on epic you feel like ur grinding 99+ skill every time passed 80 actual due to curve

you do know plat was a supergrinder on the old epic system and he knows how skillgain works there lol

Epic was changed to wu-esque skilling when they did the transfer where 1-100 rolls give skillgain instead of 1-40 years ago so the curve is no longer negatively effecting skillgain, the curve allows you to easily get 95+% of actions getting skill ticks with the new wu system so it makes skilling way easier. maybe you just don't know how to skill on it because i did 1-90 weaponsmithing in 3 days on epic back when i actually played post-transfer, it's multiple times faster on epic, there's a reason everyone did 70 praying there, if the curve negatively effected skillgain still it'd absolutely nuke prayer skillgain due to it being 1 diff for majority of actions. maybe you get some advice from roccandil, he grinded a dadd-tier crafter with like 80 str in a year on epic, and 90+ channelling priest of every god to go with it

2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

Channelling?

you can grind to 100 with light token and nothing else due to the new epic system, and you can spam out favor for casting with 0.6s creation timers for casting so it's multiple times easier on epic.

2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

How come we actually get LESS body stats due to the fact that all main skills (like weapon skills) to grind it go up so fast that we loose on the characteristic gains?

on freedom unless you're a 80+ characteristic toon you will pass over skillgain with weapons in a few hours of hunting, same as epic.

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I live on SFI.  I don't know anything about PvP. I only poked my nose up into Epic a handful of times, but tell me - is there ANY reason why the NFI could not be given access to Epic?  Surely if NFI folk were allowed to make an Epic portal, they could visit Epic, meet up and shake hands (or swords) with us friendly Southerners, have a bit of a party if you like, and then use the same portal to return back to the same place (NFI).  I think the game could keep a value in a portal variable somewhere to remember to send Southerners back to SFI and Northerners back to NFI?  It could provide a place and space for us Southerners to meet up with our Northern cousins, which is currently impossible until North and South are merged.  We can't take items into Epic, or buy them to bring them back, but we could actually get to meet some of the friends we've only chatted with in GL or CA Help and private message.  The economies might change in an interesting way as currency could then start to flow betwixt and between SFI and NFI - but only by going to Epic.  Some people might even like it and stay, or is that too incredible. Is this impossible? Just a thought.

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1 hour ago, Muse said:

I live on SFI.  I don't know anything about PvP. I only poked my nose up into Epic a handful of times, but tell me - is there ANY reason why the NFI could not be given access to Epic?  ..

 

Bank accounts. As long as the SFI-NFI division exists a physical encounter would disrupt the separation between the clusters.

 

 

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