Joemog

NFI PVP-server incentives

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As discussed a lot before there's a lot of reasons to play on freedom over pvp on NFI - you can make money and get extra skillgain. As time goes more and more get the extra skillgain and have less reason to bother with Defiance.

See some of these topics for more info:

To make a flavourful Wurm-themed I suggest adding seasonal bonuses on Defiance only. These still won't make it more attractive than the freedom side, but at least add to balancing it.

Rotating between buffs every week or two (or attached to Wurm seasons somehow):

- Increased affinity chance (2x, I'm sure most ppl still won't get any skilling)

- Skillgain bonus (25%)

- Rarity bonus (2x)

- Increased mob SP drop chance (2x)

 

I just suggested some initial numbers based on the fact that its competing with easily buying SP and path of knowledge skillgain.

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I would say that Defiance as-is needs more official public awareness raising as to its benefits. Not everyone spots or appreciates the benefits already available.

 

So even if the Devs are not willing to implement something like this, because they feel Defiance already offers plenty, they should make the comparison more publicly available information.

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I think it would be better to connect Defiance with the other servers. I’m seeing Defiance head towards Chaos population levels at this point in niarja.

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14 hours ago, Nukacola said:

I think it would be better to connect Defiance with the other servers. I’m seeing Defiance head towards Chaos population levels at this point in niarja.

What do you mean connecting? With items and sailing? I think fewer would just be on defiance then since daily play is more rewarding on the other servers and it would just be harder for them to get back to Defiance.

Population probably dwindling because with one click on a portal you can earn money and have better skillgain with that same account.

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We kinda need pvp incentives everywhere, Epic = might give people an actual reason to start playing there, the start would be to allow a 2 way skill transfer, that's been asked for years now. 

Chaos = low pop there too, needs a reason for people to pvp. 

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Posted (edited)

Is incentives really the issue? The player base in general has been shrinking pretty quickly since the steam launch, and PvP is obviously hit worse by that because you need other players for that game mode and the less players there are the less fun it likely becomes. PvE you could play solo if you'd want to.

 

So considering the general trend, it doesn't surprise me to see all the PvP servers with very low populations and I doubt incentives would do much to change things, except maybe give it a temporary boost. So +1 to adding incentives to Defiance, as I don't see it mattering, but I also don't see it hurting anything.

 

 

Edited by Ecrir

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@Ecrirlet me put it this way, if incentives weren't an issue (bugs and lack of content notwhistanding) why did everyone and their goat left Epic when they introduced a skill transfer from Epic>Freedom? 

Basically that update killed any incentive to play Epic. It was the proverbial straw that killed the camel's back. It's just an example but incentives actually matter. 

 

"Why should I pvp and risk losing my stuff?" - random freedom player

 

Personally I'm saddened the devs don't simply want to experiment with concepts such as a seasonal server (maybe 3 months?) where you pvp but it's No-Loot pvp. See how players behave and react in such an environment. At least for the sake of the experiment.


Realistically PvP in Wurm always had a $$$ sign attached to loot. Even with RMT gone, it doesn't change the fact that every piece of gear can be valued within the Wurm market. No other game I know practices this stuff, at least not legally. 

So pretty much there are more arguments against pvp than for pvp at this point. Yeah pvp needs updates. It needs content. Faster timers for building / doing stuff on a pvp server. Faster sailing speeds. 

More advertising for new players. 

 

But even if all those were fixed I think one of the big drawbacks is the fact that people are reluctant to actually buy silvers with RL money, to invest in decent gear, go on a pvp server, get  killed and in their mind they will lose that money. If it isn't money invested then it's time. Quite a whole lot of time, enchanting and imping gear. 

 

I'd experiment with making a dynamic pvp server where everything is sped up, gear is non-loot, instead you can upgrade gear by getting "kills" and see how wurm pvp feels afterwards. 

 

Pvp in wurm has a lot of high end requirements if you really want to be competitive. The entry barrier is too high. Way too high in my opinion. 

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Why did everybody and their goat leave epic at that point? Perhaps they were already done and wanted, but they didn't want to start from zero either with the early grind (and the well known sunk cost fallacy). That skill transfer removed a roadblock and thus they got the hell out of there.

 

So that doesn't say anything definitive about a lack of incentives, it could just as easily indicate that they weren't enjoying pvp any more.

 

 

I totally agree that the devs should have experimented more with short servers and special mechanics to see what works and with all the other points you make there. It's a shame the only short server experiment we saw was Jackal, and that it was axed right after.

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7 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

Why did everybody and their goat leave epic at that point?

because everyone that played on both epic and freedom instead skilled on freedom because there was a whole bunch of incentives to play there, such as being pok+vyn crafter on freedom and pvp priest, cheaper+more supply of sleep powder, cheaper enchants for those without priests, no risk of dying and losing gear, selling anything you make for silver vs it being worthless on an unlinked server and so on. the exact same thing happened to defiance, everyone goes to freedom to grind, so there's nobody to find off deed to pvp against, there's barely any community to hang out with since they're all on freedom so any returning players see single digit numbers online and don't stay around leading to population loss over time due to nobody sticking around. epic had a reasonably high population for a few weeks after the update until everyone realised that grinding there is worthless

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4 hours ago, Ecrir said:

Is incentives really the issue? The player base in general has been shrinking pretty quickly since the steam launch. 

That might also be because once wurm launched on steam, it was not long before staff interaction on the wurm steam forums became zero. 

 

Why come to a game or be interested in a game if the main attitude on the wurm steam forums is one of listing the games faults. Then promoting wurm unlimited over online. 

 

Wurm is not very good with the "follow through"  

 

Introduce stuff, okay but got to keep up with the communication too. 

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1 hour ago, Zexos said:

Introduce stuff, okay but got to keep up with the communication too. 

 * nods * 

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You could try... Oh wait, you already did try that, and you ended-up actually LOSING players. 😄

 

So yeah, I think you're gonna need game-mechanic built-in gameplay-incentives to attract new people, or to regain the ones you lost.

 

Translation:

4 hours ago, Ogian said:

*bump*

^ +1

Though, it could be argued (unsympathetically) that there is still one, already-built-in mechanic you personally haven't eliminated yet. You could try PAYING people to play this game with you. 🙃

 

(No offense to you-know-who-you-are.)

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Posted (edited)

What is the goal? Do you want players to visit defiance, or stay there permanently? Are you trying to retain PVP players, or attract PvE people?

 

Either way, I think that it’s a mistake to try to lock players in to a PvP server with skill or item barriers. I think that the better solution is to look at the reasons why people don’t want to visit (or settle permanently) and address those. 
 

The first change I’d suggest is opening the barriers to movement between servers, and then change the rules so that you don’t lose any gear when you die. It’s a big change and I think that’s what’s needed. 

Edited by Sheffie

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1 minute ago, Sheffie said:

What is the goal? Do you want players to visit defiance, or stay there permanently?

 

Either way, I think that it’s a mistake to try to lock players in to a PvP server with skill or item barriers. I think that the better solution is to look at why people don’t want to visit, or settle permanently, and address those. 
 

The first thing I’d suggest is that you don’t lose any gear when you die. It’s a big change and I think that’s what’s needed. 

That's silly, you should read some of the stuff in the OP if you're interested in what the issues and goals are.

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8 minutes ago, Joemog said:

That's silly, you should read some of the stuff in the OP if you're interested in what the issues and goals are.

I did read the OP, and I read the replies. I’m attempting to address the broader issue of PvP participation levels. If you just want to talk about your suggestion that’s okay.

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30 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

I did read the OP, and I read the replies. I’m attempting to address the broader issue of PvP participation levels. If you just want to talk about your suggestion that’s okay.

Well, you misunderstood the topic. Whether you pvp or not it's just way more rewarding playing on the freedom side which is what the issue is.

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1 hour ago, Joemog said:

Well, you misunderstood the topic. Whether you pvp or not it's just way more rewarding playing on the freedom side which is what the issue is.

Okay. Then why isn’t the solution to make all the rewards the same?

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7 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

Okay. Then why isn’t the solution to make all the rewards the same?

Because pvp and pve works very differently in many ways that're mentioned or linked in the OP

 

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On 7/9/2021 at 6:35 PM, Joemog said:

Because pvp and pve works very differently in many ways that're mentioned or linked in the OP

 

This is sadly, quite accurate. Those who want to grind efficiently are being forced onto PvE servers, for reasons that are nothing to do with the community or core mechanics of either server. Its the NFI-Defiance sharing-mechanics that is causing the issue.

 

It's already SO FAIR to everyone that we get IDENTICAL OPPORTUNITIES on both servers, that it is measurably biased inexorably towards PvE, because PvE has little use for the mechanics that are so clearly intended for PvP servers, and that PvP accounts cannot afford not to use full-time.

 

And without those accounts contributing their weight to the PvP servers as they skillgrind, NFI drains first our war-economy of labour and items, and then our population. Players will quit rather than come back after that, because without their ongoing contribution, PVP gets more and more unsatisfactory, so the server they left always looks worse than when they last looked.

 

What do we get in return? PvE players hopping over to grind a few additional skills on Starter Island to get some obscure journal entries, as an enhancement to their all-consuming PvE lifestyle, and avoiding getting invested in or interacting with the PvP community. Whereas our players have to get fully involved in PvE culture to function there. With the Prayer mechanic revamped, neither culture need to ever do that again. Thankfully. As it would seem quite clear that they don't want to be here, and believe a lot of things that aren't true, about PvP.

 

But they do believe one thing that is true. There is no mechanical incentive to playing Defiance full-time compared to there being many mechanical incentives to playing NFI full-time.

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