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Oblivionnreaver

Increase base carry capacity of horses/hellhorses

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With the latest patch to breeding, making horses with both all speed traits and carry weight traits is way harder compared to what it was before, and makes any newly bred horses much worse due to how low carry weight is for horses without the draft/weight traits and how the game will actively try to prevent you breeding speed+draft traits, a horse can carry a whopping 5kg of weight before it starts to slow down and that's not even counting horse gear so you can't even get a saddle on it before it hits the weight limit! hellhorses is something like 55kg before traits. All three traits previously added +40kg to carry weight for a total of 45kg carry weight before slowing down for normal horses, which is still pretty low but not "having literally anything in my inventory will slow down my horse" low.

 

With the current system, if you want a decent horse for riding around with the new traits, you're going to have to fast to no fat layers, because the difference between full fat layers and no fat layers, is 125kg vs 30kg, so if you're at no fat layers you get a whopping 95kg of extra inventory before your horse slows down, which is great for pve riding around assuming you don't sacc rares or use refresh or anything like that, but isn't really feasible for pvp where it makes you take 5+ second shield bashes with no fat layers.

 

Suggestions would be

 

1. Move the +weight from the base draft traits to the speed traits as it seems like the game doesn't want you to mix the two, but because of the +weight you're almost forced to

2. Make it so you can actually breed speed+draft traits like you could in the past, even if it takes 80+ AH to breed them now it's pretty garbage how you can't breed them properly.

3. Add a % modifier to the base weight from the player when on a horse for speed calculations, the player being 1.7 meters tall and 125kg puts them at a very chunky 43.25 BMI but since it's used in other calculations for the game you can't really just lower that, so like a 75-50% base weight from the player, but 100% from player inventory would make them actually ridable at max speed

Edited by Oblivionnreaver
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I'm very much excited to see a wider spread of horse types for different tasks, the new system is a step into a very desired direction where AH is not stopped to be exciitng and a challenge once you get your stock of 5sp breeders. Seemingly the new system needs some adjustments still as from the reports so far it seems the trait distribution is way too random to be possible to at least specialize the horses other than the main categories. I don't see it very beneficial to force the breeders to keep hundreds of breeding horses as that will again make impossible to find wild animals on the servers.

 

For now it seems I'll try to stick to my old 5sp horses and make sure they last as long as possible.

 

 

Also could make extra pro breeders (say 70+ AH and somehow curving up from there) to have some means to nudge the traits into the foals they would prefer. Some means to weigh out the unwanted traits and lower the randomness.

Or make it so that on a specific diet or having specific housing conditions) the foals will have higher chance to gain preferred traits?

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latest patch to breeding was a joke, get on a cart and it goes 5 k/g if you unload it it goes 13 k/g . if the point was to try and make sure ppl  don't go off there deed will you guys hit it right on the head with the update. If it was me i would go the others way make it faster for ppl not slow it down so when we get new members to the game and they pop 2 bulls on a cart it goes some what faster then 5 k/m .

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while at it.. make speed traits useful for cart-pullers in some way.. any way.... speed on vehicles is trash

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The direction of this update went completely 180 degrees in the wrong way. We need faster stuff in Wurm not slower. Tired of saying the same thing for years at this point.

 

And the "realism" aspect that weighed carts are slower is not something that should be part of any game. Yes, it is realistic. But from a game design perspective? It's wrong.

If we went for realism in every game, then no one would play shooters since 1 bullet would end your story. No first aid pickups. No auto heal uncharted style.

If we went for realism we would have a sprinting mechanic in game. And we wouldn't be slowed down to 11 km/h in full plate. Real life plate is not that heavy, look up documentaries and historical data for them. But in Wurm we accept it slows you down for game balancing reasons.

 

There's "realism" and then there's game design compromise, which in the end is just a simulation of realism towards fun. We accept certain mechanics as long as they have an overarching purpose towards an enjoyable experience. This update is not enjoyable. Horses are slower. Carts are slower. AH and breeding is harder now. Where is the balance? Is Wurm getting more and more mechanics to slow things down?

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3 hours ago, Jaz said:

For now it seems I'll try to stick to my old 5sp horses and make sure they last as long as possible.

Yeah, this is kinda ironic, i though that i would have to cull my old 5s horses to make room to care for new ones, but now the old 5s horses are very hard to get and they are quite fine for usage(haven't compared to new 5s yet though) and i think i will continue to care for them...

 

3 hours ago, Jaz said:

Also could make extra pro breeders (say 70+ AH and somehow curving up from there) to have some means to nudge the traits into the foals they would prefer. Some means to weigh out the unwanted traits and lower the randomness.

Or make it so that on a specific diet or having specific housing conditions) the foals will have higher chance to gain preferred traits?

this is actualy very good idea, like for example if you feed mother while pregnant with oats or some other grain it will have tendency to pass or generate draft traits, or something like that :)

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Or an update to create Anti-Genesis spell that removes Positive Traits. 

Thus you can remove speed traits from parents so you only get parents with draft traits and so on.

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3 hours ago, elentari said:

Or an update to create Anti-Genesis spell that removes Positive Traits. 

Thus you can remove speed traits from parents so you only get parents with draft traits and so on.

Yeah I suggested in thread with announcment that they change genesis so you can choose which trait to remove, and also to implement that on dispelling since they are at it. But still doesn't help you to push for hybrid horses. For example, I would probably never want speed trait for shallow water over some draft trait.

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14 hours ago, elentari said:

The direction of this update went completely 180 degrees in the wrong way. We need faster stuff in Wurm not slower. Tired of saying the same thing for years at this point.

 

And the "realism" aspect that weighed carts are slower is not something that should be part of any game. Yes, it is realistic. But from a game design perspective? It's wrong.

If we went for realism in every game, then no one would play shooters since 1 bullet would end your story. No first aid pickups. No auto heal uncharted style.

If we went for realism we would have a sprinting mechanic in game. And we wouldn't be slowed down to 11 km/h in full plate. Real life plate is not that heavy, look up documentaries and historical data for them. But in Wurm we accept it slows you down for game balancing reasons.

 

There's "realism" and then there's game design compromise, which in the end is just a simulation of realism towards fun. We accept certain mechanics as long as they have an overarching purpose towards an enjoyable experience. This update is not enjoyable. Horses are slower. Carts are slower. AH and breeding is harder now. Where is the balance? Is Wurm getting more and more mechanics to slow things down?

 

"We want the game to be more like RL!" ... "No, nonononono, not THAT way. We want it to be LESS like real-life." ... "Oh no! Nononono, just no! What is wrong with you people?"

 

Is it just me, or does it feel like Wurm is ultimately a PvD (Player vs Development) Sandbox Game?

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5 hours ago, Drayka said:

 

"We want the game to be more like RL!" ... "No, nonononono, not THAT way. We want it to be LESS like real-life." ... "Oh no! Nononono, just no! What is wrong with you people?"

 

Is it just me, or does it feel like Wurm is ultimately a PvD (Player vs Development) Sandbox Game?

shockingly an MMO isn't going to have a fanbase with the exact same thought and mindset about every update and what the direction of the game should be

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I don't think there's any player in Wurm that wants a 100% realistic game experience since if that happened nothing would be fun. Could you create a sword in 10 seconds in real life? Or are horses born in a few days? 

 

Game design has always been synonymous with simulation and compromise, the end goal being a fun experience. But artificially slowing things down and claiming that they are "realistic" is not a good experience. 

 

Case in point, a relevant example would be Valheim that relies on 1 important game mechanic. IN order to progress in that game you need to explore the (huge) map to find ores. You mine said ores, like in Wurm and they are heavy on the inventory. Many of those ores are far away from your home base. Trudging across the map with just a handful of ores at a time is insanely slow. So here's the catch. In valheim you can build teleporters to quickly go from point A to point B but...

 

You can't take ores with you. Pretty much every forum, including the steam ones are filled with thousands of players asking for the devs to give the option to teleport ores in the game. Note, unlike wurm there's no horses or wagons you can use to transport materials. Imagine if in Wurm you had to slowly take 5-6 iron ores to the forge every time, but from across the map. It's pretty insane. It's the same situation here. People are asking for fun game design not realism. No one enjoys wasting hours of their lives for a simple task just because it's artificially called and coded "realistic" in a game. And increased RNG is just one of the mechanisms that usually stands against having fun overall. Luck isn't a skill in any game. 

Edited by elentari

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@elentariIt wasn't the point you were making, it was the way you were making it.

 

I was struggling to decide whether to laugh or flinch at the thought of a Wurm Dev reading that particular comment, so I settled for doing both.

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Dunno, sometimes I get so frustrated I go into autistic-obvious explanation-mode. Probably a fault from work having to explain to clients how to light a match. 

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😂 Well matches are very tricky things to light. And it is so frustrating to think you are making a point so clearly that surely no-one can misunderstand, and yet, they do. Every time.

 

Because from their point of view, we are the ones being blind to all the challenges they face. All the priorities they have painstakingly taken into account, and done their very best with.

 

I have a habit of spamming this forum with all the glorious-sounding ideas that rush through my head. Some of them, I'm more invested in than others. Sometimes the comments hurt, sometimes they are funny, sometimes they are truly interesting, but mostly my content is ignored. And that's okay, because I don't expect my ideas to become part of Wurm, or even be popular. I won't give up on trying to contribute, but I'm not the one who has to code them. Mostly, they have entertainment value, if only to me. I enjoy trying to figure out how I would patch the game. It's fun!

 

And sometimes, I'll spot something in the game, or in the patchnotes, that seems very familiar. Maybe it wasn't because I suggested it, maybe it was because someone else suggested it, or the Devs had already decided to include that feature. And maybe some of the things I or others suggest, turn up in something I don't recognise the inspiration for. Maybe in a feature that challenges me or others in a way that wasn't anticipated. Maybe even it results in a bug which makes everyone's life truly challenging for a while.

 

But it is always someone's inspiration. Someone's interpretation. Someone's time and effort, even when things go awry because of it, and that's always entertaining and challenging. But what makes it valuable, was that someone attempted to change something for the better. The actual results are impossible to foretell, but the intent can be relied upon.

 

In a world full of broken matches, I find that very reassuring.

Edited by Drayka
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Well I hope the devs realise this matchbox can be improved.  High RNG really isn't a "skill" when it comes to animal traits and honestly Wurm already has waay too many RNG systems and mechanics to rival a casino at this point. 

I'd say the philosophy of less RNG and more skill / options is what's needed at this point but that's just my perspective.

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I would not even say that higher variety in traits is basically a bad idea. But as it is implemented, there is a 3:1 likeliness even for highest skill breeders that nonsense or harmful traits are the outcome. It does not even seem that high skill breeders get reasonable results when breeding couples with the widely same trait set. That gives the impression that even breeding over several generations is unlikely to yield reliable outcomes, or at least in an extremely tiny number of cases. The consequence is excessive culling which destroys fun and satisfaction for many breeders. 

 

Randomness is ok to some extent to add uncertainty, in terms of both risk and chance, to allow lower skill breeders results above their skill as well as high skill breeders risking suboptimal results. But generally, good skill should spell better outcome.

 

The chance for bogus traits like "resource gathering" at horses needs to be nixed or at least drastically lowered, also the chance for negative traits when breeding on deed with high AH and no inbreeding.

Edited by Ekcin

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8 hours ago, elentari said:

Well I hope the devs realise this matchbox can be improved.  High RNG really isn't a "skill" when it comes to animal traits and honestly Wurm already has waay too many RNG systems and mechanics to rival a casino at this point. 

I'd say the philosophy of less RNG and more skill / options is what's needed at this point but that's just my perspective.

 

Well theoretically there's a third option, which is to replace some of the (overused in my opinion) RNG code with Luck mechanics. Not a skill, but a set of principles and variables. I'm just not sure if there's enough data to draw upon to make an internally consistent yet comprehensible luck system. RNG is a simulated diceroll, but at least no-one who isn't a language developer can be held responsible for its integrity. Whereas implementing a luck system would probably cause huge amounts of social drama, disputing its integrity. And if it bugged because people demanded it be modified because they don't like it... that could be catastrophic.

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