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Patch Notes 03/JUN/2021

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I am sorry but I do not have specific details either. Fixes are being worked on, speeds are being reworked, and traits are being looked at and that is all I know personally. Devs are working with a breeder to come up with a better system for traits and how they pass on, and I've seen discussions about speed going on so that is definitely being worked on too. As for the foals dying, there is something else going on and it's not just that trait and we are looking into the cause. It's not just foals, other horses have been passing away as well, ones that are old and cared for and do NOT have that trait and have no reason to be dying.

 

"Giving sleep bonus and telling us to use it on AH?" - Yes, I posted that on socials because that's what I am choosing to do with it, and was relating that while also asking what other people plan to spend it on. Do you have to spend it on skilling animal husbandry? No, that is your choice,

 

Please keep in mind that this is our first big update in quite some time, and that we do have a new Dev on our very small team. Wurm is a very old game, with lots of history of coding that needs navigating and sometimes unexpected things happen. I understand your frustration, as I am unhappy with my breeding results too and I had a horse market I'll be shutting down most likely because of it, which has been most of my in-game moneymaker. The best we can do is be patient until things are adjusted. No amount of being upset or irritated will get it fixed any quicker.

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13 minutes ago, DemonaNightshade said:

I am sorry but I do not have specific details either. Fixes are being worked on, speeds are being reworked, and traits are being looked at and that is all I know personally. Devs are working with a breeder to come up with a better system for traits and how they pass on, and I've seen discussions about speed going on so that is definitely being worked on too. As for the foals dying, there is something else going on and it's not just that trait and we are looking into the cause. It's not just foals, other horses have been passing away as well, ones that are old and cared for and do NOT have that trait and have no reason to be dying.

 

"Giving sleep bonus and telling us to use it on AH?" - Yes, I posted that on socials because that's what I am choosing to do with it, and was relating that while also asking what other people plan to spend it on. Do you have to spend it on skilling animal husbandry? No, that is your choice,

 

Please keep in mind that this is our first big update in quite some time, and that we do have a new Dev on our very small team. Wurm is a very old game, with lots of history of coding that needs navigating and sometimes unexpected things happen. I understand your frustration, as I am unhappy with my breeding results too and I had a horse market I'll be shutting down most likely because of it, which has been most of my in-game moneymaker. The best we can do is be patient until things are adjusted. No amount of being upset or irritated will get it fixed any quicker.

 

why only one breeder

why not make a feedback thread to consolidate all feedback, single out comments from breeders for input there and then player response in another document or whatever

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3 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

why only one breeder

why not make a feedback thread to consolidate all feedback, single out comments from breeders for input there and then player response in another document or whatever

 

They have been gathering information as well from a lot of the posts since the update. It's not like it's only based on a single person's experiences. This breeder in particular has been testing on the test server and has put out hundreds of foals and compiled their data.

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Like so may others that have posted recently, I have stopped all AH operations. Over the last year I have built up a herd of over 60 molten hell horses, that are now useless. Time and effort breeding them for speed traits, and now they are useless as speed traits no longer matter for carts/wagons. Dozens of hours, thousands of animals slaughtered because I was working on a pure molten herd....all for nothing now.

 

Hell horses eating thru food on hitching posts like there is no tomorrow, so there is no way to keep them docile for any decent period of time...so now if I want to be safe just walking thru my hell horses that are HITCHED, I have to be Fo.

 

I refuse to be used as a bug tester for this "Update" that is why I have stopped all AH. All my animals are now locked away until some kind of fix is put into place and we the paying customer can know what to expect. I refuse to spend another minute on AH until the fixes are in. I hope my herd can outlast the fixes, but I'm not going to hold my breath...and even if they do...I have a herd of speed hell horses that are useless for the purpose that they were bred for, all because someone decided to change the way speed traits work after a DECADE of people doing it one way. You have 10 of THOUSANDS of paying players time invested in this AH skill over the years, and their work is wiped out.

 

In a game that is already a grind, and many of us use as an escape from the workings of real life....this is not fun and I know people that are no longer logging in because of this.

 

Happy Wurming everyone!

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2 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

 

They have been gathering information as well from a lot of the posts since the update. It's not like it's only based on a single person's experiences. This breeder in particular has been testing on the test server and has put out hundreds of foals and compiled their data.

 

Why not let everyone test on the test server, put out thousands of foals and compile the data? I tried to test it myself and it was literally impossible - all the horses that I've been spawning were male, and all the horses on the steppe were male too. Why didnt you make any effort to make it possible for people to test things out?

Also, why wasn't this tested BEFORE releasing this "Big Update" when you know that "coding needs navigating and sometimes unexpected things happen"? I've lost a lot of good horses because of those "unexpected things", and I didnt even get a reply to my ingame ticket. All this seems like a big joke, not sure who's responsible for this dumpster fire but everything around this update - the rushed release, the bugs, and the lack of communication is just laughable.

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Am I not communicating right now? Honestly, there is no way to make everyone happy. If we kept working on it instead of release it, people would be upset it was taking so long so either way there will be unhappy people. Testing on the test server for this particular thing involves having powers above normal player level. To spawn the animals, to by hand adjust their traits for testing purposes, to force birth after breeding so no gestation time is needed. A lot more goes into it than people realize.

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40 minutes ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Am I not communicating right now? Honestly, there is no way to make everyone happy. If we kept working on it instead of release it, people would be upset it was taking so long so either way there will be unhappy people. Testing on the test server for this particular thing involves having powers above normal player level. To spawn the animals, to by hand adjust their traits for testing purposes, to force birth after breeding so no gestation time is needed. A lot more goes into it than people realize.

 

The thought that we need to release it otherwise people will be upset it is taking so long is simply not valid here. The team created the expectations of a time frame by announcing it before it was tested and ready. That is on the team and is not a valid excuse for why things are the way they are right now. No one knew what was coming nor knew to expect it in any kind of time frame until it was announced. That is on you guys and using it as an excuse for pushing out a buggy unfinished untested update does not float, sorry.

 

No one wants this mess, we know the team does not, and we know the players do not. I know that I can speak for many here when I say that it should have been announced that it was going to the test server for a month of testing before any kind of release was announced let alone pushed out live. This is what we ask for time and time again but it seems to be ignored.

 

I'm really trying not to take your responses as excuses, or as the players being blamed for not accepting what you gave us, as I know the frustration on your end must be high as well. In the end we all want a working Wurm that we can all love and get lost in. Letting the player base loose on the test server would have prevented many of the frustrations that both the team and paying customers are experiencing. But these situations are self inflicted, but they have spreading effects to your customers. I know many that wanted access to the test servers to test these changes, to provide you feed back and to help improve on the process. Let the players who are willing to help...help you....before these kinds of things go live. After it goes live there is no longer the option of wanting to help, but we are forced to live with the issues and the unknown of what is to come. There have been TONS of feedback given all over these forums since the update went live. I would dare to think that 90% of that feed back could have been gathered via the test server and this entire headache could have been avoided.

 

I do want to say thank you for being visible the last day or so and addressing some of these concerns....just seeing someone posting that something is being done can go a long way to keeping alot of player frustration down. No one likes the silent treatment, it allows our minds to wander and go places and think things that they should not, so thank you for responding and bearing the front of the frustrations. Please know that never is my personal frustration pointed at you or any other person, simply at the process.

 

I look forward to seeing the fixes and changes, 

 

Have fun Wurming!

Edited by gnomegates
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1 hour ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Am I not communicating right now? Honestly, there is no way to make everyone happy. If we kept working on it instead of release it, people would be upset it was taking so long so either way there will be unhappy people. Testing on the test server for this particular thing involves having powers above normal player level. To spawn the animals, to by hand adjust their traits for testing purposes, to force birth after breeding so no gestation time is needed. A lot more goes into it than people realize.

 

Honestly? No, you're really not. It's not really your fault since you're only allowed to pass on what little you're getting from above, but there's no actual information being transmitted.

 

Considering how detailed some of the testing abilities for normal players are on the test server the fact that no effort was made to test animal breeding is laughable. Even just allowing spawning of animals with random traits (and gender), while frustrating would massively contribute to testing different aspects of it, many aspects that wouldn't be tested normally even.

 

If the pride of whomever dumped this massive load on us wasn't clearly so tied to it, I would be demanding a rollback on the whole patch.

 

Clearly nothing was tested sufficiently, if at all.

 

While we've gotten used to beta testing because of the team's sheer laziness, nobody is willing to pay you to do your alpha testing.

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5 hours ago, Madnath said:

 

why only one breeder

why not make a feedback thread to consolidate all feedback, single out comments from breeders for input there and then player response in another document or whatever

@DemonaNightshade

about that part.. wonder if we'll still be stuck with fo kids at high level...

also the green text was going to make handling the 'rage' on forums easier and have all findings sorted.. in a way that makes it easier to use, if there was a template how to report various findings.

 

This makes no sense to be unable to fix traits in no way as a high AH skilled player...

 

It also makes no sense to be unable to make transmutation liquids as low or high natural substances player..

 

Why are specific skills locked to priests?

In the end genesis cast is rarely worth to call another priest to cast 1 or several .. it's either cheap to cast that 1 spell on the other end of the server or travel to another.. or it's expensive and worth to grind a battery priest for just such genesis casts as it makes no sense to keep calling somebody every week and paying 2nd and 4th premium tax for genesis casts.

Quote

Weren't priests asking for exactly the same.. independence from crafters and to be able to continue simple things? Why does this work only one way?

 

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lets hope its not the breeder claiming everything is fine and that players are just bad at breeding lol

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12 hours ago, Delone said:

 

3 out of 4 foals born with the "Extremely sick" now dead at or before adolescent foal age.

 

I'm not sure what your version of a very slim chance is, but by my book it looks more like a high probability.

 

Given the messed up states of so many negatives and so many useless traits, it now seems that having access to a Fo priest is mandatory.

 

Whoever came up with this trait is a sad and sorry soul as far as I am concerned, either that or they have seemingly no idea on how what they are doing turns out once it is in game. Given the mess that this update was, and continues to be, I tend to believe the latter. 

 

Insufficient testing, almost no communication, and three weeks later still most of the update not working, and totally missed the whole problem of Higher AH being worse, only increasing the problem.

 

Giving sleep bonus and telling us to use it on AH?

Who in their right mind would want higher AH at the moment, the higher it gets all it does is make the animals increasingly random, pulling in traits that do nothing, don't even apply to the category they are listed under, don't have any affect on the animal that they are on, or are negative, with the ultimate insult being they outright kill your animals if you don't have a Fo priest available. 

 

  • Horses losing their colour, their names, their parents. (Some lose just one of these, some two, some all, some on birth, some when aging up)
  • Wild parents do not show up on inspect.
  • Breeding timers don't work.
  • Hungry status doesn't work.
  • Vehicle speeds useless, getting slower with higher quality.
  • Trait that doesn't apply to its category.
  • Trait that regularly kills animals.
  • Higher point pools being a penalty by just pulling in mostly negative or useless traits, not breeding to dominant or existing traits.
  • Points for traits still wrong after 3 weeks.
  • Animal points on no occasion after several dozen animals being as high as my AH, at best more than 5 points below, and only then by pulling in 5 point negatives.
  • Animal food consumption amounts seeming vastly increased, especially if feeding from containers
  • The ability to breed custom animals through a careful selection of parents over generations? Tossed out the window to dominant pool plus RNG.
  • Despite assurances, riding horses slower unless you are low weight. (Rare trait always on activating keen senses test error?)
  • Parents reversed on inspect window
  • Steam client failing to close properly, consuming huge amounts of memory.

 

Basically speaking from what I do in game, there is more not working than working correctly.

Seems a bit beyond just tuning, and I have seen all of two comment addressing issues:

Darklords on the 28th, acknowledging points were wrong in lists, saying it would be resolved soon, seemingly a very minor fix, not in patch, still wrong.

Samool on the 6th, saying they believed they had fixed the vehicle speed bugs and would be in next update and mentioning tweaks later - also apparently didn't make the patch as they didn't regain any speed.

 

 all of the above with FEELING

----

To clarify my feeling with the bolded parts of the above:

I upped a month on my main with silver I don't have enough to do it again later and that is frustrating since the silver was set aside specificly for me to come back and stay playing. and right now i wont encourage this bull by giving you money I prob just go back to minecraft and FF14. I will happily kill the donkeys 1 mule and all animals I have acquired since this update and destroy the cart I imp'd to 80 to test the ql increasing speed if you are willing to refund me the 10 silver and remove the premium time I will willingly happily eat the loss of the sb used in that time. I hate the new normal where the customer has to pay to beta/alpha test your( all game company's) updates or game itself. I literally cane back because a toggle for the pulsing chat tabs finally got added. I should have waited because so far my experience with the part of wurm I love most ( animals) has been very negative. I dont believe in rewarding terrible policy  if you dont refund I'll log on and chat with people and imp their vehicles for when ( if ever) the code for that gets fixed. I get that I am just one person and honestly in your shoes I would be happy to see me go since its one less vocal person stiring the pot on the forums.

 

 What is the point to Higher AH can we please get a statement or conversation on what the intent was with getting lower ql horses that down match up to your skill leaving aside that if your skill doesnt end in 0 or 5 the they dont apply. 72 skill for example is there 1-2 point traits or are we punished for not being divisible by 5 or 10? I cant take a brush to my horse and imp it up to my skill level if its comes out below it. so what exactly was the goal with this portion of the update? horses are not crafted we cant imp them to make up the difference. Even then if I have no control over any of the non dominate traits( and apparently the dominate traits from my experience so far)  then it literally defeats the purpose of selective breeding in the first place.

 

rng is not fun when you can not improve the result doing the same thing over and over again and praying to rng that you are lucky IS NOT reasonable! There is surprising little rng in this game that can not be worked around through either increasing your skill or being able to improve the item. and with enchants we have the option to continue trying to get better. after an enchant goes on an item it isnt made useless and destroyed because we can recast on it yes sometimes things shatter but spoiler! higher skill means this happens less often. This is the opposite of the current skill curve for AH. Unless you have a solution for this discrepancy in the rng then all you a re doing is making this play style unpleasant FOR THE SAKE OF IT. Categories mutually exclusive to one another is adding nothing of value and is removing value in its use.

 

classic 5s are effectively faster then current 3 speeds mounted this like the vehicle speed now being subject to weight is a direct deliberate planned speed downgrade. So far I dont count the water trait its useless inland and often replaces other speed traits that SHOULD have passed on since both parents had it effectively downgrading the horse further. By should have I mean I have more then enough AH for all three of the classic speed traits on my classic 5speeds and most of the foals are born with 3 speed traits for sure. but usually 1 of hte parents speed traits gets replaced by the water one because it is "less rare" then whats already being bred. This is counter intuitive either tell us selective breeding is no longer relevent unless you are breeding 30+pairs at which point its just rng you are getting all the traits you want by brute forcing the numbers. often after the water trait replaces a speed trait the rest of the points that easily add up to more then if I had all speed traits on the foals fills in with misc/output and negative traits. You say that after a a breeding delay we will have horses right back to where they are. This is a blatant lie! if a horse slows down because you picked up a dead chicken when you use to be able to carry a troll and you cant get carry more or strong body on a speed horse to compensate that is a speed downgrade. So far the only "bonus" for having all speed traits has been for when things are hitched. I looked again but feel free to correct me but I was pretty sure this would not apply for ridden animals.(for the always on rare trait. rare traits have already been stated to have a low chance to pass one adding insult at this point lets all make HH for carts and wagons with all the draft traits horses and bison are about useless aside from milk if you cant get the rare traits.) being able to carry more and the horse to have more body strength automatically makes it faster when riding. the point seems to be separating the traits into categories that are mutually exclusive to the animals are inherently slower is clearly a planned speed nerf that was intended and a large part of the over arcing goal with this update. 

 

please do not lie to your player base. This patch was designed to be a speed nerf in every aspect of play aside from boats( and I am skeptical with this one.)

 

 Given at this point we have a better idea of how the system works then you. We are the ones that are alpha testing your patch please we really are not that stupid we can put the puzzle pieces together: slower carts/wagons except when empty, player weight counting, the removal of carry more and strong body from calvery mounts making plate dangerous to wear given how much it will now slow down horses. Rebranding keen senses to a speed trait that goes faster only in water and calling it an upgrade( anyone tested if this works in rain?) add a very rare speed trait to horses that brings them almost on par with hell horses who's speed is always on then making sure it only rarely passes on. I am surprised HH didnt loose speed being always on. A draft trait easy on the gear which implies that the next patch that is and "update" will have draft animals cause damage to shoes and any other gear you add when hitch possibly including the cart and wagons to taking more damage when used since that would counter balance the goes faster when higher ql if we wear down the ql faster. I am sure this gear and its weight will also count towards the go slower weight mechanic. You backpedaling on boats going slower with cargo was a surprise. donkeys being ridable do these have a bonus to carry weight? Mules cant breed so traits on them is even more of an rng kill the foals mechanic so this is a flavor animal which is fine but takes up space in the animals per tile ratio which limits the ability to safely breed now that you need more pairs to hopefully get similar results to what you had before) Animals eat a ton more food. I imagine this is to counter balance hay giving up to 30 pieces a tile. This is ALSO a speed nerf if you plan on carrying hey bales for your riding horse as it adds 12kg to the weight carried that no long gets mitigated by the new draft category. On hay. the bed is not impable but bedrolls are??? let us imp hay beds thatching has very limited skill leveling options.

----

saying its "being Worked On" is a blanket No Comment statement Press Release. At least in the bug forums when the memory leak showed up we got a very clear this was not intended and This WILL be fixed. Tell us what was intended vs whats currently going on might help. The silence just says you intended most of the negative results of the new system and are adjusting it now over the backlash followed by riding out the rest of the backlash until people give up. Giving us a no comment until we give up and shut up about it is worse then you flat out saying this was intended and we need to get use to it. Its not going away deal with it.  Also please add the changes as you make them to the test server then invite people to find the bugs. Dont add it to the test server then pointedly not tell people about it that is very backhanded. It lets you say you DID add it to the test server while not actually letting the community know its something to be tested. That ignores that with breeding horses especially you need enough time on test for the animals to reach the age where they can be ridden and hitched to truly test for all the bugs. The current policy of no comment is thoroughly causing people to be demoralized.

 

 

p.s. the breeders advertising 4 speed horses. do you get a speed bonus for having all 4 when you are NOT in water? I do not have a 4 speed yet my herd is small so I have no way to personally test this. because selling them as 4sp for more then a 3sp smacks of false advertising unless you can prove to me that having that trait with the other three gives the animal a speed boost. If having all the traits gives that boost then you would need the always on trait to get that bonus and always on IS that bonus.  I haven't seen anything on this that implies it does I have seen it stated that the bonus have all the traits with draft exists ( if its working or not since carts and wagons actually slow down with higher ql which I personally checked. the draft "bonus speed" is a whole nother issue since I dont think we have a good way to test it yet). Unless you are in water a lot that trait is very very very unlikely to be useful unless you make a point of hunting on the coast. and even then you have to literally be in the water and the coasts are not remotely strait and often have large areas of to steep to ride. this instead of going on a road still will take you longer then if you stuck to the road and the surrounding area to hunt.

 

tl:dr- I am tired frustrated and would honestly prefer a refund of the silver I paid to go premium specifically for this patch so I can use that silver to come back if the patches become less about nerfing a whole portion of the game in the name of making things more RNG.

 

the update is to broken( in some cases simply heavily nerfed deliberately) in too many ways to accurate test anything of note. There is no communication on what specifically with any certainty that the outcome is what is intended by the developers. A good portion of the updates outcomes are the direct opposite of the patch notes. My personal experience is the classic 5 speed horses will always be better then any new horse bred that doesn't have the very rare trait( that has an even lower chance to be passed on then the new normal) of the speed always being on as you loose carry more and strong body which lets ride at a reasonable pace despite the weight. RNG sucks in a skill based system that does not allow for imping for the product produced.

 

I am sure there is a ton of mistakes in my typing spelling and grammer are hard for me. I hope you can read it without it being to much of a chore. Thanks

 

Edit: working with 1 breeder is not a good sample size. that works well for the comercial breeding but having more then 1 breeder feels like it would be a better check on bias. people are human you def need more then 1 persons mass breeding to test things. even then you could get better results on the test server without forcing the rest of the player based to suffer through alpha testing a patch. ( I would say beta testing but thats for stress testing and small bugs. alpha test is internal testing which if you are sticking to one breeder and then just skimming the forums then apha test fits.

Edited by Yserin
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59 minutes ago, Yserin said:

p.s. the breeders advertising 4 speed horses. do you get a speed bonus for having all 4 when you are NOT in water? I do not have a 4 speed yet my herd is small so I have no way to personally test this. because selling them as 4sp for more then a 3sp smacks of false advertising unless you can prove to me that having that trait with the other three gives the animal a speed boos

I have an aged 4sp (just by luck i found one that had keen senses and the 3 other speed traits on a fallen deed) testing it against old 5 speed horses, it is no faster unless  you can find a long stretch of shallow water that doesn't dismount you or hit points of depth that make you stick - so no. The only time these horses will be of actual benefit is if they have the always on trait, so that keen senses is activated (this is an assumption and is the only reason I can find that Demona was able to go so much faster on her test horse she gave the rare always on trait than I can achieve on live).

 

The actuality of things is, the old 5 speeds still perform as well, if not better than the new 4 speed horses once you are carrying any amount of weight. I am back to riding a old 5 speed (3s 2d?) ebony as it achieves higher top speed and seems to be penalised less for carrying weight.

 

Edit: this applies to riding only. As far as using them for pulling (whether intended or not) they seem to be taking a penalty for being the hot blooded body type - wild/untraited horses actually do better, despite the old 5 speeds  having 2 draught traits.

Edited by Delone
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3 minutes ago, Delone said:

I have an aged 4sp (just by luck i found one that had keen senses and the 3 other speed traits on a fallen deed) testing it against old 5 speed horses, it is no faster unless  you can find a long stretch of shallow water that doesn't dismount you or hit points of depth that make you stick - so no. The only time these horses will be of actual benefit is if they have the always on trait, so that keen senses is activated (this is an assumption and is the only reason I can find that Demona was able to go so much faster on her test horse she gave the rare always on trait than I can achieve on live).

 

The actuality of things is, the old 5 speeds still perform as well, if not better than the new 4 speed horses once you are carrying any amount of weight. I am back to riding a old 5 speed (3s 2d?) ebony as it achieves higher top speed and seems to be penalised less for carrying weight.

 

Thank you for testing that I greatly appreciate it.

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7 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

"Giving sleep bonus and telling us to use it on AH?" - Yes, I posted that on socials because that's what I am choosing to do with it, and was relating that while also asking what other people plan to spend it on. Do you have to spend it on skilling animal husbandry? No, that is your choice

 

If you missed it, it wasn't just you "on socials" some of us aren't interested in all the million extra platforms 😜

 

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2021 at 11:40 PM, DevBlog said:

Note: To help speed up your skilling in animal husbandry, and to make up for the extended downtime with the last update,  5 hours of sleep bonus (up to a cap of 10 hours) will be added to every account with the maintenance restart on June 10th. Thank you all for your patience with us! 

 

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12 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

As for the foals dying, there is something else going on and it's not just that trait and we are looking into the cause. It's not just foals, other horses have been passing away as well, ones that are old and cared for and do NOT have that trait and have no reason to be dying.

 

No other foals have died out of several dozen, only the ones with the extremely sick trait, out of more than 50 foals.

There may be a secondary problem going on, but the chances of this not being the cause of these foals deaths seems pretty much negligible.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

While I am here, I wish to say that I am in no way meaning to blame Demona for the communication issues, making somebody a CM and then clearly failing to pass on vital details (or even, it becomes apparent, with keeping them up to date with changes) and leaving them to hang out to the public is about the biggest failing I can see with this whole issue. The company seems to have very little cohesion in the way separate parts are working, or failing to work, with others.

 

In any other online game I have played, I have seen patches rolled back within an hour or two of going live when it becomes apparent there are major flaws. This update had many, many flaws, both gameplay and world breaking (hello grazing causing terrain deformation?). How it went live I fail to understand at all, how it was monitored once it did go live also seems to have been seriously lacking - but then, how would we really know? The lack of communication, and only seeing the way people were responded to when they started reporting these bugs, certainly made it look like it wasn't being watched closely.

Edited by Delone
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9 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

am unhappy with my breeding results too and I had a horse market I'll be shutting down most likely because of it, which has been most of my in-game moneymaker

 

I stuck up a PSA on my horse sales thread warning people not to buy existing 5 speeds the moment I finished reading the Valrei "Feeding time" update, and then removed all keys once the patch went live and it became apparent how badly things had been nerfed with respect to hitched horses, went from selling a dozen or more horses a week to nothing, voluntarily as an act of conscience and posted an apology to those who had recently bought off me, I felt like I had done them a disservice. I announced this PSA in trade as often as I had been advertising sales for a while, to make sure people who regularly came to buy had a chance to see before wasting their time with a trip.

 

I could be continuing to sell to the unwary, or promoting new 4s horses as being something special, when they are in fact no better and seemingly inferior in truth.

Won't be resuming sales until there is a hell of a lot more clarity, and assurance that thing wont get reworked again to the point where I am again selling horses that people shortly after regret buying.

 

The fact that I ground an additional 20+ points on AH over the next 2 weeks, only to make the situation worse...  leaves me somewhat salty to say the least.

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Even with all the problems that this update has brought and the lack of testing that it included I just want to take a second in this burning world to tell you @DemonaNightshadethat I am grateful you are still here talking to people and trying to help put it out. I truly hope we can all work more closely with the devs in the future to better prevent these problems beforehand and tell them that we love the update and all the work they do. Perhaps a feedback thread made by the devs where we can all come together and speak how we want things to change and how we can get those changes.

Edited by Zuelatak
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9 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Am I not communicating right now? Honestly, there is no way to make everyone happy. If we kept working on it instead of release it, people would be upset it was taking so long so either way there will be unhappy people. Testing on the test server for this particular thing involves having powers above normal player level. To spawn the animals, to by hand adjust their traits for testing purposes, to force birth after breeding so no gestation time is needed. A lot more goes into it than people realize.

Please be patient with this post.

It is not your fault you are the messenger but you are a messenger going both directions. You are who we have access to. The Code is def complicated! Testing code is even more complicated. However the code that is done artificially will behave different then just doing things using the features as intended more often then not. A lot more goes into testing that people realize that is true. But tested data is useless if it is not actually testing the code or behavior that needs tested. short cuts are harmful and cause inaccuracies.

 

Testing on the test server for this particular thing involves having powers above normal player level. I disagree with this but recognize that it may be necessary if time constraints are a factor. however if time is not a factor than the test environment is not similar enough to the live servers to be provide useful data. aside from spawning in animals or setting up a full set of gear basic AH tools to be mailed to participants as these should not interact in a meaningful way with the code being tested. There should not need above normal player levels.

 

To spawn the animals : this only part of this I recognize as necessary given the limitations of the natural spawn environment but! even then we have donkeys now spawning and bison population was touched on so natural spawning behavior is also in need of testing. We dont know despite asking if donkeys share a spawn allotment with horses. Short targeted individual artificially spawned test animals will not provide accurate data for a large swath of the patch. It would not be necessary if the testing period spanned at least a month allowing players and dev's time to find and breed animals. Even then testing should last long enough to get 2-3 generations in to make sure inbreeding, gestation. point allotment and inheritance is working as intended. You could even leave the test server up and let the more adventurous people build up deeds and farms/animals then you have a premade natural environment for testing purposes. Have a permanent standardized bug report form for the test server with a report other/feedback portion have a specific thread for it so you dont have to worry about making that kind of reporting system in the code. IF people cant be bothered to use it thats on them. if things go sideways you can point at the lack of feedback despite incentives and you get to say we tried to get it tested but you ignored it.  Set up reporting thread for each section. Traits. vehicle speed. general breeding. non livestock breeding ( hostile animals) but this only works if the test server is as close to live as possible aside from whats being added to test.

 

 hand adjust their traits for testing purposes, : oh hell no I am sorry but this is outright counter productive. Doing by hand you bypass the code that should by rights be the target of testing especially rare traits if they have code that is separate or rolls differently for inheritance then normal or category traits. its how inheritance and the weighted rolls from Breeding that should be tested. how the Age coding interacts with the new traits/gestation, how traits behave when aging up naturally vs artificially as well so GM spawned animals have as few potential conflicts as possible. ( animals loosing parent info and going to default traits and wild color randomly at age up is one of the current bugs for example that are part of the aging code in theory) All that is happening with this method is testing the spawn and GM code not the actual breeding or trait codes unless you are then breeding using the actual code that went live after for several generations to find and identify quirks or bugs in the code.

 

to force birth after breeding so no gestation time is needed.: same as above but how do you find potential hiccups in the gestation code? How do you possible find and prevent randomly dying animals that could be bugged by new conflicts potentially ignoring deeds tile/animal ratio? I mean technically you could use the pvp timers instead and still test the live code in the process with very little Hand of God intervention. Pvp's breeding of horses at least is a much higher pace and would still be relevant. Would give you solid feedback on how not having fo for blacklight is effected by adding so many more traits to the pool. Epecially since Reduces Breeding Timer is not clarified in the notes and gestation may be a factor. So far across the board the getting intimate timer appears to have not changed by skill. but I am seeing animals with 6 day gestation periods fairly often and I have no idea if that is intentional. And by forcing the the gestation there is no way for the dev's to know if that code is working as intended either. set the clock fast or set it up like the pvp breeding instead of skipping the code that could easily be disrupted by touching the trait system, gestation, breeding and age, how they interact with a tile when grazing, locked and unlocked containers whether or not locked hitching posts are exempt. distance that animals actually look for food vs intended distances in an enclosure and what they prioritize ( spikes/dips from tile interaction) ( all of this is interconnected so if you touch one part there is a chance it will snowball into a different connecting part). Honestly each part should have be tested then integrated then tested with the next part to make bugstomping and wierd code interections, missed decmels and what not easier to find. If nothing else the added time will allow for easier debugging. Right now so many changes over lap that finding where the problem and interaction issues start has got to be a nightmare for the dev's considering how much of a nightmare it is for the players and we dont have access to the code or dev tools. Testing in stages is a good practice.

 

part of testing properly is testing the code the player base will be using. instead of the code the gm's are using for report tickets and events, development machines ect which means doing things within the confines of what the player is capable of.

 

Setting a bar for bug reports would also be extremely useful as it helps quality control on what is and isnt witnessed compared to what a feature "feels like" while also important hard numbers are to. we have time stamps and the ability to copy text in the event window, chat and combat this is borderline unique in online gaming its an excellent ingame tool for everyone and should def be taken advantage of in testing.

 

This or something similar would be useful for both us and the dev's.

https://marker.io/blog/bug-report-template

 

on top of that having a pinned known and reported issues in at least one of the many forums available bare minimum both for the sanity of moderation and to have all the info merged into the same location so you folks both get all the info we have + not having to thread dive in multiple parts of the forum to find things.

 

Add are testing join us and add your mark the the game! announcement to the launcher or something. There is a large part of the player base that does not read the forums. Heck incentives to go to the test server if lack of bodies is an issue is possible. One thing I could think of is having titles that reset before each patch test period for active test participation and reporting. It lets the testers display their contribution for each patch. Some sb to compensate for spending time on a server where progress will not carry over to live would not be a bad option to but should be based on reporting not time spent or people will just afk for free sb. can have number of foals born mission objective. number of bison(speed/draft/output traits), number of wild cats ( combat traits, output for meat/pelt/parts ql). Missions for ql ranges sacrificed for output animals all these could give miner amounts of sb to be transferred to live at the end of the testing phases to make up for taking them away from their personal projects on the live servers. and thats just what I can think of.

 

the mission system would be such an amazing test server tool if you wanted it to be. find the champion missions to capture/tame for breeding this would also get people testing mount speeds/vehicle speeds. have cart/wagon races. missions to find donkeys have a daily test goal. how many donkeys did you find. where did you find them what quadrant did you find them. how many males and females did you find. set the goal to like 1000 slayed donkeys. then switch animals or reset it if you need more data. there is so many interesting structured ways to get the community to help you bug squish that isnt just pushing it to live and crossing your fingers.

 

yes there is going to be unhappy people either way but that's normal and should not be a factor in communication. communication requires exchange of information even if its simple information rather then just going its being discussed/worked on. saying what amounts to no comment or Soon is a statement. Things that could be done that does not ( I assume) require developer input. Start collecting links to your answers to various questions you have responded to across various media into a pinned/locked thread to redirct people to make sure the contributions added are dated so people can have a timeline of answers/progress. I know there is information here in this thread that could be added as being worked on or that you heard to the patch post if you have that power.

 

just dropping these here. Some of this doesn't apply I know but its a pretty good foundation.

https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/beta-testing/

 

https://www.testbytes.net/blog/game-testing-tutorial/

 

https://www.qualitestgroup.com/white-papers/patch-management-testing/

 

not sure the scientific method applies to game patch testing but at least some consistent structure to testing is important. None of what I wrote takes into account the many different computer set ups. you cant hope to test all of those. but having at least 1 computer that does not have any of the development tools or bugstomping programs is important. This provides at least an attempt at a normal players experience as possible. download, patch and and play on it for at least 20hs( please take breaks) this would have uncovered a good many of the initial bugs encountered. Note uncovered not fixed. finding them is the start of the battle.

 

this got long. so have a couple of silver of opinion instead of 2 copper. I hope you get good rest between putting out forum fires I wouldnt want wrangle a forum kudos for your willingness to.

 

 

 

Edited by Yserin
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9 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Am I not communicating right now? Honestly, there is no way to make everyone happy. If we kept working on it instead of release it, people would be upset it was taking so long so either way there will be unhappy people. Testing on the test server for this particular thing involves having powers above normal player level. To spawn the animals, to by hand adjust their traits for testing purposes, to force birth after breeding so no gestation time is needed. A lot more goes into it than people realize.


I guess belated damage control technically counts as "communication"...
Many valid issues were raised before release and completely ignored.
I would like to echo others here, and make certain that blame is not cast on you personally. Clearly you were not given relevant information in a timely fashion by your superiors, which just puts you in an awful position.
The hardcore nerfs to cart/wagon speed weren't even mentioned in advance, no attempts to gather feedback were made. Instead misinformation was and is being being spread, like saying that former 5speeds will "only be a tad slower" after the patch.

I think I am not only speaking for myself when I ask that you inform us about your future plans in as much detail as possible. I don't want to be surprised by another hotfix that invalidates all the effort put into breeding since the patch, but frankly with how everything has been handled so far this seems a real risk. More open communication is needed!

You have turned you playerbase into beta testers with this patch, which is why I stopped subbing with real money. I don't believe in paying for the priviledge to beta test someone else's poorly designed work.

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On 6/16/2021 at 12:24 AM, DemonaNightshade said:

If we kept working on it instead of release it, people would be upset it was taking so long so either way there will be unhappy people.

 

Actually we wouldn't be upset if there were updates on how the work is going. Lot of indie game developers keep their fans and supporters appraised on how the development is doing. 


Even something as simple as a weekly update of one sentence:  "We're currently coding how certain traits will affect sheep, cows and bisons and working on new models and working on balancing." can go a looong way in keeping your players happy to see transparency. Being radio silent for months about a big update, then releasing it in such a broken state without proper testing is actually more of a failure of communication than anything.  I've asked people how many were aware pre-update we could test breeding on the test servers and no one knew it was even up on there. Again, communication. 

 

This isn't a shot at demona, it's just whoever decides to keep radio silent for weeks / months needs to stop. This is more hurtful to Wurm and its survivability long term than a hundred bugs. 

 

Wurmians are patient people, the core design of the game is made for patient people,  just throw us an update on what is worked on and I guarantee it the feedback will be better than relaying info only on the day when things go live.  This won't help the AH update now but at least for future updates keep in mind that it doesn't take much to give players an insight on what's worked on, what challenges you're facing, etc. We're all human, but people get put off when nothing happens for months, then suddenly an (broken) update gets released and people are wondering "wth is happening?" 

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I get there are always bugs with updates but perhaps some clarification on the new system might help to a lot of the older breeders like myself are going wtf..  I literally killed 98% of my last foals because they were garbage and you can ask anyone on celebration I don't kill horses I give them to new players.. make rift horse pens etc.

But as for horses dying I had a bunch of horses and hellhorse all different ages from my breeder most of my breeders were cared for in would say a good 60% of my cared for dead.

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It's hard to not be completely frustrated when:

 

Young mule, no speed or draught traits, 60ql  shoes with no casts

Aged former 5 speed ebony black, 70ql shoes, high 80's woa

Aged former 5 speed ebony black, 60 ql shoes, 70's woa.

 

No matter which combination of the above animals I hitch to a cart, the speed is exactly 15.86kph on the flat.

 

Removing the shoes from the mule, speed becomes 15.10kph with the mule and either of the 5 speeds attached.

 

Replacing the untraited, ungeared young mule with an aged untraited bison, which is supposed to have a bonus to hitched pulling, 13.67kph

 

Are mules that much stronger than bison? Are bison currently broken? It's not knowing what is considered broken or being worked on that adds so much to how this affects players, if I knew that part of what was broken was related to the bison themselves, then I wouldn't be so concerned, if I knew that bison were currently working as intended and no fix was incoming, I could immediately give up on my attempts to breed draught bison from wild stock, as there would be no point, and concentrate on draught donkeys in order to breed draught mules. 

 

Why are all 3 of the first three listed the exact same speed? Did I somehow manage to hit on a combination of gear where both the mule and the lower geared horse have exactly the same contribution, and thus both are limited to the same speed? Would seem the chances of this are slim. Is it the code that is working out speeds of carts that is doing this? Again, not knowing what is broken because of no responses is just frustrating.

 

This is all on top of the other issues with breeding and traits that have previously been listed.

 

Communication. A post from one of the Devs detailing what was known, what was being worked on, what is as intended, what is broken. I have seen several such posts from Keenan when there are server issues, I think it's high time something similar was done here.

Edited by Delone
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